Mafia 5: Arkham City

[Baysiderulez]

I fully agree with Hero of Time.
And another thing. Jo, with your last post, you sort of said that you (partially) agreed with HoT's post. With this you actually say that you are on the same side. This was actually an accusation on your (meta-)playstile in the game, and with saying that you were on the same side, you just trew any accusation about this away.

So wait... if I understand you correctly, you just claimed YOU are on the same side as me and Hero Of Time... That makes no sense.

 

[Kybyrian]

No-one is saying she is definitely a townie. What we are saying is that her behaviour is not out of character, so it'd be weird to use it as a scumtell. Sure, if she went to any other forum where she wasn't known and did this she would be strung up in an instant, but here a number of people have played a few games together in the last year and the tactic of observing how people play in other games has become more relevant.

She isn't pushing us towards a lynch just yet. The subject of her has dominated the discussions of today though (along with queries about Zenox). Is she trying to push the town into disarray and cause confusion? Not so sure at the minute. She has this self-righteous habit of going "Re-read the posts to understand my logic. I won't explain it to you," and in my mind players should not be expected to second guess the logic of accusations - they should be spending time trying to figure out their own opinions. I don't think Bay is scummy here, she's just her usual stubborn self. And I think I may have to have another re-read to spot someone more suspicious.

Using a person's meta as a defense is generally a bad tactic, especially with somebody like Jo. Only an idiot would change their playstyle from one game to another because they received a different role. If you change your playstyle it's generally suspicious to a lot of people, so I think it's safe to assume that using Jo's playstyle as a defense for her is not the best idea.

The worst thing about Jo is that you really have to read between the lines. Jo won't change her playstyle for any reason... and she'll get you all on the track to believing her. While this can be great if she's a townie, it's also a Mafia tactic that I'm sure works out for her.

 

[Baysiderulez]

EPWODP:

While I do agree with your theory of mafia members defending people to make themselves look innocent, I don't think it applies here. I think you are jumping the gun. Zenox FoS'd you based only on this one sentence of yours:

And I thought his reasoning was dumb, as did many people. If he had made a good post full of analysis about why you are scum, and people started agreeing with him and there was a lot of heat on you, then it would make sense that mafia members would come to your defense to make themselves look innocent when you flipped town. This happens in every game. I did it in Round 2 when I was a member of the mafia, I would almost never bandwagon and would vote for someone I knew wouldn't get lynched. (The vigilante eventually caught on and nightkilled me) But in this case there wasn't even a vote cast for you, it was only Zenox who was suspicious of you, and not a single person agreed with him. So while I do agree with your theory about mafia members defending to make themselves look innocent, I don't think it applies in this situation.

Originally Posted by Baysiderulez
Personally I'm waiting... for a reply from Illmatic and DracoMajora.

Then perhaps it will be time to ready the gallows.

First of all, I wasn't defending you, I was being suspicious of Zenox, as I stated in my post. Second of alll, I was being suspicious of Zenox, because I though his accusations against you didn't make any sense.[/QUOTE]

Oh hey... Jo's suspicious of me. Again. And... You don't have to yell at me to get me to post.

Jo, if you remember, I flipped town last time with your suspicion (well... I was acting odd in the last game, even though I was a vanilla townie). If my defense of myself isn't adequate enough for you, I promise you that you'll really, and I mean really, regret killing me off when I flip townie, and I promise that I will flip townie.

Now, for my defense.

The post that Zenox posted that I felt didn't have any real claim in it:


As you can see, Zenox seemed oddly suspicious of you, Jo, with reasons that I felt were not applicable to your first post. As Axle mentioned, he cut off the last little bit of the rule that gives an exception to a "scum-tell" rule. Zenox said later that he didn't feel it necessary to put that in his post, which I also find odd, because he should know that you are a very experienced player. But, I will say that I'm glad that he's researching some rules and tips outside of this game to help himself in this game.

My defense of you was to show him that there are other factors that show that you were not scum with the information that we had. I merely told him that it was too early in the game to be placing an FOS on someone with only the first post of that person to go off of. Jo, your post was only a couple of sentences that pointed out that you thought that TheGreen and Zenox were a little eager to get things going. I also said that your post could have been scum tell, but it was too early to place heavy suspicion.

Axle said, in response to Zenox's post that accused Jo:


That's exactly what I was thinking when I read Zenox's post. I honestly felt like there was an "empty" argument used to support Zenox's claim. It didn't make sense.

Also, What Jo said about people defending her:


Why would you suddenly flip on those that defended you, a few posts later, when you said that you "love[d] not having to defend [your]self?" (quote only changed to match proper grammar. In no way was this slight change meant to take the quote out of context) That post seems like you're happy that we defended you. It would save you some work and time in the game. Also, if you really are town, like you claim, you would prove to be quite an asset to us.



Technically, 4 people "came to your rescue" right after that post. You listed me, Dracomajora, and Illmatic. You missed Axle. Why aren't you suspicious of him? Then, on the next page (4), jdenicholls "came to your rescue" as well. And further down on that page, you've got some support from Meego7 and kokirion. Why aren't you suspicious of any of those other three? Or do you know something about the "original" three of us that others don't? Only Mafia would know such information here on day 1.



This post gives me a few mixed feelings. What do you mean by "lost cause?" Why would the Mafia use a tactic that they know that previous Godfathers/Godmothers have used? Especially when those two are playing this game? It just doesn't add up in my mind.

Then, Jo commenting on us "defenders":


You really think that defending someone that we feel is a powerful and useful player is a "slip up?" Its Day 1, and those posts were made on the 3rd page. Zenox made a rather large accusation of you only after a few posts. In my opinion, there isn't much to go off of with a first post like yours, Jo. The three of us that you are suspicious of said in our defenses of you that Zenox was making claims that weren't valid. It doesn't mean it is a "slip up."

For those that missed the "re-read the posts from the 3 I asked for explanation for to understand my FoS" here is all three of their replies to my IGMEOY. I ain't calling you stupid. If I explained it then there would be too much room for "I agree" blah blah blah, and not enough room for analysis on your own part. I don't want to lead people like blind mice. If you agree with me it will be because of your own conclusions. Not because of anything I said to "brainwash" you to think that way.

EBWODP (again) Draco's quote messed up... grr.

 

[kokirion]

So wait... if I understand you correctly, you just claimed YOU are on the same side as me and Hero Of Time... That makes no sense.

no. The difference is that you are not on that side. You only try to look like you are, to get a neutral position

 

[Baysiderulez]

no. The difference is that you are not on that side. You only try to look like you are, to get a neutral position

So you seem to know more then you should... If I am not on his side. What side am I on then?

 

[kokirion]

Why ask it to me? How could I know in wich Mafia guild/cult or any kind of section you belong. no, but serious. This is the most stupid question I've heared since the beginning of the game.
Trying to silent me with supid reactions.

You're always playing your game. If you are mafia, than I'm sure you would've made sure they were not going to help you. Why should you need help? It only makes them and you more suspicious, and at the same time, it's easy enough for you to save yourself.
If you are scum than you are atm just soloing, you don't have a side (well, you have your own side). Publicly you are "choosing" a neutral position, but I know that's just a cover. I know you keep track of every player (their dangerous level, possible roles etc. (You told that last game, and I analyzed it)). How can you analyze everyone while you don't have any real suspicions/opinions? That can't, and espessialy not in your case. I have no idea with who you are siding, but I know that your neutral cover, wether you are scum or town, is fake. You are playing your own game. You try to achieve your goals no matter what, and everyone who oppose them will need to be eliminated.

 

[Baysiderulez]

How can you analyze everyone while you don't have any real suspicions/opinions?

So my FoS, and IGMEOY's aren't real then, is that what you are telling me?

 

[kokirion]

you didn't even read my statement well. I mean with it that you are exactly the person who has suspicions.
You aren't even reading my statements. You only pick out something that doesn't even have anything to do with the overall idea of my statements. Just because it's in your eyes the weakest spot. Instead of replying with a reaction this pointless, you could better reply to the real accusation

And about your FOS/IGMEOYs.
Quick analyze:
- some IGMEOYs were just used in the beginning - probably to start the game.
- your FOS was against someone who accused you - very coincidentally
- most of your other IGMEOYs were also thrown at persons who had something to do with you.
IGMEOYs to start the game don't really count IMO, they were more used as an RVS than as real accusation. Btw, at ZD the IGMEOYs are often used as extremely low versions of FOS, I wouldn't even call that a real accusation.
FOS and the other IGMEOYS against people who were standing in your way - probably only used to underline your attack on them, to silence them.

 

[Baysiderulez]

Remind me, when did Illmatic accuse me?

 

[kokirion]

last page.
You didn't accuse him because he attacked you, you accused him because he said something in defence for you. Just to keep neutral. Exactly the same case as when you attacked me after I said something in your defence.
If he was the only person, than it would've been a different story, but he wasn't, you did it multiple times. Very coincidentaly don't you think?
It doesn't really matter wether you attacked him because he accused or defended you. The thing is, that he has like the rest of your suspicions something to do with you.

EPWODP

something totally different. I remembered that you (in Mafia 3 I think) posted a link where you could see how many times people posted, and where you could read the posts of others in isolations. Could you post that again? Being able to ISO makes a huge difference. This game is going to be a very long one (many posts), so it's hard to look for specific persons to analyze them.

 

[Baysiderulez]

I will post that link in a minute... if you go to the "forums game page" and click "replies 159" (or whatever it will be after this... it will bring up that page... Last time I checked it Zenox and I were tied with 26 posts. Granted that was quite a few posts ago, and I dont think he has posted since. Now i will go fetch that link.

- I accused him, but it wasn't because he accused me. In fact, I don't think he accused me at all.

EBWODP

Here is the link with the way the forums are programed, you can use that link, but if you pull up lets say all of my posts, you wont be able to post that link, and have us see them. Searches only work for the member who generated the search. It is however very easy to multi quote all of them... as you can click on the post, multi quote, go back, go to the next post multiquote, press the back button, and repeat.

 

[kokirion]

thanks that will help

he defended you. He only recently accused you.

 

[Baysiderulez]

What exactly are you taking as his accusation against me? I felt like he was pulling the same old same old technique. In fact, his response varied so much differently from the other two I also asked to explain themselves. So much that I think there is something different about him in comparison to the others.

Can't really say I'm accusing my accuser when I accused him first, and he has not placed any accusations on me.

 

[Jimmy]

For those that missed the "re-read the posts from the 3 I asked for explanation for to understand my FoS" here is all three of their replies to my IGMEOY. I ain't calling you stupid. If I explained it then there would be too much room for "I agree" blah blah blah, and not enough room for analysis on your own part. I don't want to lead people like blind mice. If you agree with me it will be because of your own conclusions. Not because of anything I said to "brainwash" you to think that way.

What exactly are you taking as his accusation against me? I felt like he was pulling the same old same old technique. In fact, his response varied so much differently from the other two I also asked to explain themselves. So much that I think there is something different about him in comparison to the others.

You did sort of go back on yourself there. Obviously his response being differently is not inherently suspicious. It's in what manner it differs that is the case. And why.

From what I can see Illmatic criticises your theory of people who defend innocents, while the other two only talk about the situation at hand and try to defend themselves. I'm not sure I find this suspicious. Add to this that Hero of Music is actually aggressive to you, while Dracomajora is submissive. Illmatic is firm but calm. He treats you on equal terms without trying to 1-up you in some way.

 

[Baysiderulez]

Right, Jden. Town players are more likely to take risks then mafioso.

Why?
There are many more town then mafia.
Town's tend not to view their position as "as important'
Mafia have more to live for, a town isn't scared of being discovered as town.
There are fewer mafia. In this game of 27 people... We have somewhere between 5 and 9 mafia among us (using a 1 in 5 and 1 in 3 ratio as my range) SO we have somewhere between 18 and 22 towns (give or take if we have any 3rd party roles).

Now just to acknowledge the first half of your post.

You did sort of go back on yourself there. Obviously his response being differently is not inherently suspicious. It's in what manner it differs that is the case. And why.

Yes I revealed some of my thinking. An accusation isn't subjective, the accusation may be made based on subjective matter, but the accusation itself is a very objective point. I was asking Kokiron what he was viewing as an Accusation against me. And further how he came to the conclusion that I was accusing my accuser. I cast the first stone. So unless I was psychic, and knew Illmatic would "accuse" me later in the game; That is the only way I can see how he can accuse me of "accusing my accuser."

I feel as if I have somewhat gone off on a tangent but let me draw it back in.

My suspicions are based on my subjective opinion. I don't want to pollute you with my subjective opinion. It would eliminate room for analysis I am convinced of that and you may never have posted this:

I'm not sure I find this suspicious. Add to this that Hero of Music is actually aggressive to you, while Dracomajora is submissive. Illmatic is firm but calm. He treats you on equal terms without trying to 1-up you in some way.

I mean you could have. I cannot say for sure. But I am willing to bet that you would not have. Contrary to popular belief I am not here to brainwash you into agreeing with me.