A ZD Timeline Project

[sign of table]

You do realize that they both say pretty much the exact same thing....

Kinda. I agree that the box implies that it goes LttP-LoZ, but the American box is very blunt on the position of the game, whereas the Japanese box 'could' be referring to something else, as shown by Erimgard on ZI (or was it ZU...?) (even though I disagree with his conclusions).

I don't think I have ever come across a person who has put ALTTP after LoZ/AoL.

As Erimgard said, Shigeru Miyamoto.

Oh and Erimgard's timeline is the one I used to follow, with games on the AT and LoZ/AoL being way before LttP.

If you've never played the game then you should probably get some info on it before you start theorizing its placement on the timeline...

You can be a good theorist and have never played or beaten all the games. For example, IIRC, last year when Erimgard won best theorist on ZU, he'd only beaten like 6 Zeldas.

I would. Except that it takes money, which is something I don't have XD

I'm unsure if I'm allowed to mention emulation or not (if I'm not supposed to you a mod could just PM me or edit out the part about emulation in my post), but you could always do that.

Or just read the text dump translations and manuals.

Also, the American manual calls Link and Zelda in ALTTP the predecessors of a previous Link and Zelda.

LOLNoA

It doesn't split though, which I guess because during the Seal War there was no hero (or so I have heard).

There was no hero mentioned, but nothing about there being no hero is linked to the Triforce's status is ever mentioned.

Well, if it stays together, it contradicts the other two Zeldas at the time, where the Triforce is broken, so it would have to take place after LoZ/AoL.

What? Either that's a non-sequiter, or I missed where that implies LoZ/AoL-LttP (back in '91).

Miyamoto has been wrong before about the timeline.

When was he wrong about the timeline? And even if he has been wrong before, why does it matter? Using that same logic, the split timeline confirmation quote is irrelevant.

 

[Erimgard]

I would like to second the "when has Miyamoto been wrong".
Kinda hard to be wrong about something you created...

 

[Zemen]

Screw the dang box.

Things are retconned in series' many times. Miyamoto retconned the original box of ALttP when he made his infamous quote. What the maker says goes.

How many times have certain comic or game characters been killed yet, their deaths are retconned and they become alive again. The first four issues of StH are retconned by issues printed 10 years later.

If Miyamoto would've stated his quote before the box was released, then I would believe the box. But since he said it after, he automatically screwed the box.

Plus, A Link to the Past wasn't the original title, so don't use that as the excuse. Triforce of the Gods was the original, and says nothing about the game's placement.

I would definitely say that what the game says is much stronger than what a developer says. Based on what you just said, if Miyamoto came out tomorrow and told us that the main character in the series is named Ralphy and not Link, you would believe him and instantly the entire series staple character would become Ralphy to you with no questions asked. Miyamoto has been wrong before. Sometimes you have to trust your own detective work and what the games say, not what the creators say. At the end of the day the creators can change their words, but unless a remake is made, the games will always stay the same.

 

[Erimgard]

Why does everyone assume that Miyamoto is a sadistic and or mentally handicapped person? He invented the games. He's not just dicking with us. What he says should be taken seriously.

 

[knowlee]

Well, I think that ALttP comes before LoZ/AoL. My reasons why would be those that people have peviously stated. It would make more sense with ALttP occuring before those two games (at least now anyways).

But looking at it with just those three games, it would seem that ALttP would occur after LoZ/AoL. One reason would be the title of both versions of this game: "A Link to the Past" and "Triforce of the Gods".

That whole quote still seems to be talking in present terms. Correct me if I'm wrong about how you are presenting that quote, but it says "the one who has threatened Hyrule" which specifies a past event, but does not say whether it means distant or recent past. It can be talking about an event taking place at that very point in time, which is what I believe it implies. The rest of the quote from the manual might help for me to figure out where your going with that one, but Ganon was surely threatening Hyrule from the beginning of ALttP.

Which manual are we talking about here? The Japanese one or the American version? Because if it's the American version, I have the original copy of it and can possibly find the quote that you guys are talking about.

 

[sign of table]

I would definitely say that what the game says is much stronger than what a developer says. Based on what you just said, if Miyamoto came out tomorrow and told us that the main character in the series is named Ralphy and not Link, you would believe him and instantly the entire series staple character would become Ralphy to you with no questions asked.

A couple things. 1) Way to make a completely over-the-top explanation that would never happen. Ever. Seriously with that logic I could say:

What if the games said that every single hero ever was actually named Ralphy and no longer Link and Miyamoto said that the hero's name was still Link, you would instantly think that the hero's name is Ralphy.

Seriously that is one of the worst arguments I've ever heard. I can make a completely unrelated example of something ridiculous to show that something doesn't make sense if the former instance is true.

Miyamoto has been wrong before.

Both Erimgard and I just asked you about that... when has he been wrong?

Sometimes you have to trust your own detective work and what the games say, not what the creators say.

Ok so if the developers are wrong and the Legend of the Fairy in TMC means that MM and TWW happen on the same timeline, then you must believe in a linear timeline, right? Hey, look! I can make completely ridiculous, over-the-top, stupid, and wrong examples too!!

Just so you know, the most important part of this post is when I asked "When has Miyamoto been wrong". Make sure to respond to that and not some stupid strawman that isn't nearly as relevant.

 

[Midna666]

I believe that ALTTP comes before LOZ and AOL.
In the Adventure of Link's backstory we learn of a king who had control of the whole Triforce.

Now the only time that the kingdom of Hyrule would have the whole Triforce would be after Link gets the Triforce at the end of ALTTP.
We can assume that Link gives the Triforce to Zelda for safekeeping after his quest.
And at some point in the future, a king comes along who can use the whole Triforce.

Well that's my idea anyway.

 

[angelkid]

Miyamoto was wrong with pretty much EVERYTHING he said before the split was announced, because with the split announced, EVERYTHING changed.

I think ALttP deffinitely comes first. In ALttP Link, gains the triforce after destroying Ganon who pull the Triforce out of the Spirit Realm. As people have stated, AoL's back story tells us of a King who held the triforce. It is obvious that that King was either Link (making him Zelda's father so no) or that Link gave the Triforce to the King. Ganondorf then broke in and stole the ToP, then having split thwe Triforce, the ToW found Zelda. However, the ToC never found Link as at the time, he was not yet the hero. At least that's how I percieve it.

If LoZ was first, the Triforce would never have left the Spirit Realm meaning that Ganon could never have got his hands on it.

ALttP also explains why we are facing Ganon instead of Ganondorf, he goes to get the Trident and there he becomes Ganon. Straight after this, is ALttP. If LoZ were to come before ALttP then you would either have to face Ganondorf as he would not yet be the weird pig thing. Or, someone completely different as Ganon would still be in the Spirit Realm/ Dark World.

 

[Hayzer]

Miyamoto was wrong with pretty much EVERYTHING he said before the split was announced, because with the split announced, EVERYTHING changed.

I think ALttP deffinitely comes first. In ALttP Link, gains the triforce after destroying Ganon who pull the Triforce out of the Spirit Realm. As people have stated, AoL's back story tells us of a King who held the triforce. It is obvious that that King was either Link (making him Zelda's father so no) or that Link gave the Triforce to the King. Ganondorf then broke in and stole the ToP, then having split thwe Triforce, the ToW found Zelda. However, the ToC never found Link as at the time, he was not yet the hero. At least that's how I percieve it.

If LoZ was first, the Triforce would never have left the Spirit Realm meaning that Ganon could never have got his hands on it.

ALttP also explains why we are facing Ganon instead of Ganondorf, he goes to get the Trident and there he becomes Ganon. Straight after this, is ALttP. If LoZ were to come before ALttP then you would either have to face Ganondorf as he would not yet be the weird pig thing. Or, someone completely different as Ganon would still be in the Spirit Realm/ Dark World.

There's nothing saying that the Triforce splits at the end of ALttP, so that part is nixed already.

As for Ganondorf, his turning into Ganon was in the backstory, right? What if that backstory took place right before LoZ, then it would explain how Ganondorf became Ganon in LoZ, but ALttP could still come after LoZ/AoL, due to the above...

 

[Erimgard]

There's a difference between being wrong and changing things.

And on the "the one who has threatened Hyrule quote":

Indeed, the King of Evil Ganon, the one who has threatened Hyrule so, was born at this time.

This is said in the aLttP manual (both languages) to have occurred when Ganon touched the Triforce. So the King of Evil Ganon was born when he touched the Triforce. He is the same one who has threatened Hyrule (threatened=past tense)

What is this "threaten"ing that he did? Is it the Seal War?

No, it can't be, because the Seal War hasn't been discussed yet. That's the next part of the story, and the player has never heard it before. The manual is written so that the reader should understand when past things are being referenced.

If you're a kid in 1993, you've played LoZ and AoL, and you just got your brand new aLttP game. You read the manual for the first time, and (before the game tells you there was a seal war) the manual says something about the time when Ganon threatened Hyrule. What is the manual obviously talking about? The events of the original LoZ.

The events of LoZ are stated to be a past event, but when the manual ends (writers uses the words "but recently") we are only in the time period just before aLttP starts.

 

[MrMosley]

This is said in the aLttP manual (both languages) to have occurred when Ganon touched the Triforce. So the King of Evil Ganon was born when he touched the Triforce. He is the same one who has threatened Hyrule (threatened=past tense)

It doesn't specify the exact events of LoZ though. It only says that the one who has threatened Hyrule so, which indicates a past event, but as I said before this could be recent or distant. That quote also disproves the ability for Ganon to even be in LoZ as well because he wasn't actually "born" into the form of Ganon until he touched the Triforce.

Ganondorf was a man before he touched the Triforce, wishing upon it, and having the Dark World as well as himself transformed. The quote can't mean both things. It can't say that the Evil King Ganon once threatened Hyrule in the past, but somehow he is born into that form later when he touches the Triforce. To me, it either means a distant past event, where Ganondorf as a man threatened Hyrule, or, a more recent past event, as in "Ganon has been threatening Hyrule lately" sort of thing. The entire quote definitely does not have to be speaking in past tense, only the part about him touching the Triforce and being born, which is saying he became Ganon, the beast.

In LoZ, he is in this form. Ganon cannot have threatened Hyrule in this form, especially during LoZ, if he hadn't touched the Triforce and been transformed into it yet. It is completely impossible. He also cannot be in Hyrule in this form unless he escaped the Sacred Realm. As I have stated a bunch of times, ALttP makes it clear that from the time Ganondorf touched the Triforce and became Ganon, to the time that Link beat him up in ALttP, Ganon was stuck in the SR. He can't mysteriously be out of the SR long enough for LoZ to take place, then go back without it being mentioned somewhere in the game of ALttP, which it is not mentioned.

So tell me, how can Ganon somehow be out of the Sacred Realm and be in his pig form, roaming around in Hyrule, if the BS of ALttP clearly indicates that after he found the Triforce and became Ganon, he never came out? The only way is for LoZ to take place AFTER ALttP, whereas Ganon then would have been stuck in the SR from his transformation to his defeat, then later on came back, recaptured the Triforce (of Power), and resumed his reign in Hyrule (LoZ). It is the only logical explanation.

 

[Erimgard]

It doesn't specify the exact events of LoZ though. It only says that the one who has threatened Hyrule so, which indicates a past event, but as I said before this could be recent or distant. That quote also disproves the ability for Ganon to even be in LoZ as well because he wasn't actually "born" into the form of Ganon until he touched the Triforce.

A: What could it be other than LoZ? Nothing else in the series has happened.

B: So? How does that change anything?

Ganondorf was a man before he touched the Triforce, wishing upon it, and having the Dark World as well as himself transformed. The quote can't mean both things. It can't say that the Evil King Ganon once threatened Hyrule in the past, but somehow he is born into that form later when he touches the Triforce. To me, it either means a distant past event, where Ganondorf as a man threatened Hyrule, or, a more recent past event, as in "Ganon has been threatening Hyrule lately" sort of thing. The entire quote definitely does not have to be speaking in past tense, only the part about him touching the Triforce and being born, which is saying he became Ganon, the beast.

"threatened" is a past tense word.
And all that means is he touched the Triforce before transforming into Ganon and setting up for LoZ.

If you want to get into the specifics of the Seal War, it's never stated that he got the whole Triforce. It may be implied, but not stated. The narrator says "I do not know what Ganon wished for". The events are clouded. We know that prior to aLttP, at some point, Ganon [bwas[/b] granted a wish, but it's never stated that he was granted one during the Seal War. You can make wish without it being granted, if the Triforce splits. More on this once Caleb introduces OoT into the mix.

In LoZ, he is in this form. Ganon cannot have threatened Hyrule in this form, especially during LoZ, if he hadn't touched the Triforce and been transformed into it yet. It is completely impossible. He also cannot be in Hyrule in this form unless he escaped the Sacred Realm. As I have stated a bunch of times, ALttP makes it clear that from the time Ganondorf touched the Triforce and became Ganon, to the time that Link beat him up in ALttP, Ganon was stuck in the SR. He can't mysteriously be out of the SR long enough for LoZ to take place, then go back without it being mentioned somewhere in the game of ALttP, which it is not mentioned.

See the above

So tell me, how can Ganon somehow be out of the Sacred Realm and be in his pig form, roaming around in Hyrule, if the BS of ALttP clearly indicates that after he found the Triforce and became Ganon, he never came out? The only way is for LoZ to take place AFTER ALttP, whereas Ganon then would have been stuck in the SR from his transformation to his defeat, then later on came back, recaptured the Triforce (of Power), and resumed his reign in Hyrule (LoZ). It is the only logical explanation.

Unfortunately you have one good point. aLttP does imply that he remained sealed from the time of the Seal War to aLttP... that's the main reason why I said, in my first post, that I lean towards the "box" placement...at the time.

When future games are involved, I can get into what I believe now.

 

[Caleb, Of Asui]

Only one person here is going with the LoZ/AoL--LttP order, and the far more abundant arguments toward the LttP--LoZ/AoL order use a LOT more evidence, particularly from the time A Link to the Past was released. So, I'm going to officially say that this project's order will go with LttP--LoZ/AoL and close that discussion. I'll post it really big like this every time that happens so it's noticeable when skimming:

ALttP Discussion Closed

3. A Link to the Past
- Discussion Closed -
Order so Far: ALttP--LoZ/AoL

4. Link's Awakening
- Skipped -
Reason: It is obviously a direct sequel to A Link to the Past. There is some small debate over whether or not it actually is, but it doesn't effect much to be worth adressing.
Order so Far: ALttP/LA--LoZ/AoL

5. Ocarina of Time
- Skipped -
Reason: It is obviously before everything so far. Nobody's about to say otherwise.
Order so Far: OoT--ALttP/LA--LoZ/AoL

5.1 Miyamoto Order
- Current Discussion -
Details: We hit a snag when the creator came out with an order contradicting what we already have. He says OoT--LoZ/AoL--ALttP, with LA going anywhere.

First Possibility: OoT--ALttP/LA--LoZ/AoL (Keep our established order.)
Second Possibility: OoT--LoZ/AoL--ALttP/LA (Miyamoto Order)

 

[Erimgard]

Reasons for why the Miyamoto order was correct at the time:

If aLttP comes in between OoT and LoZ, as many here suggest, there are several issues.

1: The AoL backstory about the Sleeping Zelda no longer works. In the context of OoT-aLttP-LoZ-AoL, the Sleeping Zelda wouldn't be the first Zelda. This makes the Naming Tradition useless, and directly contradicts the Japanese which calls her the First Generation Zelda.

2: Ocarina of Time does not progress into aLttP correctly. OoT ends with Ganon holding one Triforce piece, and aLttP starts with him holding all three.

3: The Script Writer for OoT specifically stated that the Sages of OoT were given their names to show that it took place before AoL. If aLttP came in between the games, it wouldn't make any sense, as the Sage names aren't remembered in aLttP, but are in AoL.

4: As the primary director and producer of the series, as well its creator, a quote by Miyamoto is to be taken seriously. The quote was straightforward, and said after all the games which he was discussing were released.

So what are the problems with OoT-LoZ-AoL-aLttP?

There's really only one: Resolving the Seal War.

The Script Writer for Ocarina of Time also stated that the game was designed as the Seal War, and the character designer concurred. Thus, Ocarina of Time (at least in 1998) was the Seal War. So why then does Miyamoto not have the two games next to each other? I shall explain.

The Seal War was originally implied to not have a Hero. This story, of course, first appeared in the game aLttP which was directed by Takashi Tezuka.

Mr Tezuka directed, produced, or wrote the plot for all of the games we have discussed to this point. He still does these things to this day, and has actually been more influential than even Eiji Aonuma, second only to Shigeru Miyamoto.

Now, when BS: LoZ came out, Takashi Tezuka was put in charge of supervising the project. I know most of you don't consider that game canon, but here me out.

I too, don't consider the in-game facts of the game to be canon, as it's just a re-telling of the original LoZ. However, the game's intro, instead of telling the usual LoZ intro (Ganon invaded Hyrule and store the Triforce of Pwer) the game says that the stage for the original LoZ is the Seal War.

Now regardless of whether you consider the game canon or not, the man who did the most work with the game also had a major hand in inventing the Seal War story. So why would he place a remake of LoZ directly after the Seal War? The reasoning is simple: Tezuka wanted to show that, while the Seal War has to come before aLttP, it comes directly before LoZ.

This also shows that, in the mind of the man who created the Seal War, the intent had changed, and Ganon was only intended to have acquire one Triforce piece during the Seal War, as the Seal War sets the stage for LoZ, and in LoZ, Ganon only has the Triforce of Power.

Then, in 1998, Ocarina of Time is made, and again Tezuka is given the job of Supervisor. Ocarina of Time is stated by several NoJ employees to be the Seal War, but, just like BS: LoZ implies, Ganon only gets one Triforce piece.

This wasn't a mistake. This is proof of change in developer intent. Tezuka and the other writers decided to slightly change the details of the Seal War to involve Hero limiting Ganon to only one Triforce piece.

So if BS: LoZ was right in stating that Ganon only got one Triforce piece in the Seal War, then why wouldn't it be right in stating that the Seal War comes even before LoZ?

Director intent from Miyamoto and Tezuka heavily, heavily, implies that the Seal War was not meant to directly lead into LoZ.

Consider with me the LoZ Backstory:

One day, the Great Demon King Ganon, who planned to rule the world with darkness and fear, led an evil army corps and invaded the kingdom and snatched the Triforce of Power.

Believe it or not, even though we know OoT tells the story of the Seal War, because of the Seal cast in it's ending, it also tells the LoZ backstory.

In OoT, Ganon is known as the Great Demon King, just as he is in the LoZ backstory.

In OoT, Ganon leads an army in (the soldiers say they tried to fight of his men unsuccessfully, showing he was not alone) to Hyrule, just as he did in the LoZ backstory.

In OoT, he stole the Triforce of Power, just as he did in the LoZ backstory.

While obviously the Seal cast at the end of the game is the fullfillment of the Seal War, its story goes hand in hand with the LoZ backstory.

This shows that, as the aLttP manual implies, the Ganon "born" when he touched the Triforce is the very same Ganon who attacked Hyrule in LoZ, before aLttP.

Most of this is stated in my article:
Exploring the Miyamoto Timeline

*awaits the angry mob*

 

[MrMosley]

Now, when BS: LoZ came out, Takashi Tezuka was put in charge of supervising the project. I know most of you don't consider that game canon, but here me out.

I too, don't consider the in-game facts of the game to be canon, as it's just a re-telling of the original LoZ. However, the game's intro, instead of telling the usual LoZ intro (Ganon invaded Hyrule and store the Triforce of Pwer) the game says that the stage for the original LoZ is the Seal War.

You would have to believe that BS Zelda was canon over the original to be able to use that argument, first of all. So far, the canonicity of BS Zelda has never been confirmed. If anything, the game should be considered non-canon, considering it was not available to all regions for play. If this connection was to be an important one, one that was essential to the continuity of the series and the Seal War, then I believe BS Zelda would have been made readily available to all players.

This also shows that, in the mind of the man who created the Seal War, the intent had changed, and Ganon was only intended to have acquire one Triforce piece during the Seal War, as the Seal War sets the stage for LoZ, and in LoZ, Ganon only has the Triforce of Power.

That would make sense to have OoT as the Seal War, yes. But again, if you consider BS Zelda non-canon, then anything within the game cannot be argued. Whether it be its intro or in-game text/narration, if its non-canon, its not important. However, I will address the issue.

In order for BS Zelda's into to make sense; In order for Ganon to have only acquired one piece of the Triforce during the Seal War, it would completely retcon ALttP. Keep in mind that ALttP was re-released on the GBA, yet the plot was still the same. Ganondorf still entered the SR and claimed the Triforce and wished upon it. He was still sealed within the SR, which became the Dark World, until ALttP. If Ganondorf, now Ganon, has been sealed within the SR as a result of the Seal War for all this time, how is he supposed to be roaming about Hyrule during LoZ? Again, it completely goes against ALttP's plot, not just its backstory.

The whole reason for Ganon to use a pawn, Agahnim, during ALttP was because he could not physically leave the Dark World himself because of the seal. Again, this game superceeds BS Zelda as well as Ocarina of time because it was re-released. The same plot is there, and it doesn't make sense for Ganon to be able to leave the SR for LoZ's game to take place.

This shows that, as the aLttP manual implies, the Ganon "born" when he touched the Triforce is the very same Ganon who attacked Hyrule in LoZ, before aLttP.

Ganon was "born" when he touched the Triforce because him touching it resulted in a granted wish: To rule the world. Although the manual or whatever says that it "does not know what Ganondorf's wish was", it is made pretty obvious. Ganondorf was in the SR, he wished to rule the world, he was given the world which he was in. He had Hyrule in mind, so the SR became a mirrored image of Hyrule and transformed into the Dark World as a result of Ganondorf's impure heart. It also transformed him into Ganon and, again, he was sealed there until ALttP.