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Twilight Princess Why I Only Partially Agree with Benzaie's Video About Twilight Princess

Austin

Austin
Joined
Feb 24, 2010
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In one of our recent news post there is a video review of Twilight Princess by Benzaie (who does video reviews for GameTrailers). The ~16 minute video is mostly a rant about how Twilight Princess Sucks. He says a lot of things that I agree with, but there exists a fair portion of things that I disagree with.

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One of the first and biggest things I agree with was his praises to Wind Waker. For example, he talks about how the graphic style for Wind Waker was gutsie, but it didn't deteriorate the quality of the game. It bugs me a lot when people complain about the graphic styles of Wind Waker. Why should a cartoonish looks effect the quality of the game? This question brings up the debate of Graphics vs Gameplay argument that gained huge popularity with the release of Wii against PS3 and 360. I believe his debate has been ended with a release of one particular game. Minecraft.

This game is one of the most simplest looking graphics style ever. In fact, it uses low quality textures and block shapes. Despite its poor looks, its one of the most popular games to hit the internet. It has surpassed 2.5 million sales in the last 2 years. That being said, it's clear that gameplay has one the debate.

The majority of the video he compares Twilight Princess to Ocarina of Time. He best summarizes Twilight Princess as a fan-remake of Ocarina of Time. He brings up the book Misery by Stephen King. In the book, an author gets in a car accident. He is then saved by some woman who is a huge fan of his works. She is fairly crazy and psychotic. She forces him to write a book based off a novel he was going to end. Each time he attempted to write it, she would get upset. She would then hurt him in painful ways as punishment for not writing what she wanted. This process continues a little bit till he is able to escape from her house. I won't get into details, and you shouldn't read it if you have a weak stomach.

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This is really true because when Wind Waker came out. It got a lot of beef based off the graphics and gameplay. Nintendo tried to repair this by basing Twilight Princess off Ocarina of Time. They brought back adult Link, horseback riding, Hyrule field, and similar graphic style. This was a horrible idea from the beginning. Most of Legend of Zelda fans are hardcore Zelda fans. We've experienced Ocarina of Time, and most of us loved it. Trying to mimicked this experience with a poorer game will only anger us. There are people who do appraise Twilight Princess, and for most of them Twilight Princess was their first Zelda game. They had no prior knowledge of Ocarina of Time and thus Twilight Princess seemed the bomb.

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However, there exists a few things that I disagree with. I can't really word it exactly as he does, but he brings up the idea of the characters being sort of unimportant. I have to disagree because characters bring motivation to the game. In a story, you are given characters. You learn about them, develop feelings for them, etc. Then they're thrown into a conflict. You continue to read the story to find out how they get out of the conflict. Twilight Princess was able to do this. The first 30 minutes of game play, you learn about the people of Ordon village. Nintendo then threw in a plot twist of putting innocent children in danger. In previous Zelda games, Nintendo would only put a cliche princess in danger. Now, you have to save children. What better motivation?

This review was done really late. Its going to be near 5 years since Twilight Princess's release. All of the initial feelings of the game has completely died out. I believe strongly if he had made this review near the games initial release, it would be a lot less negative. I also believe he made many comparisons to Ocarina of Time because of the 3DS release. I'm curious how he would do this review if Ocarina of Time 3D didn't exist or a different game came out. He should have compared it to more Zelda games. For example, Majora's Mask.

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Majora's Mask is the only game that uses Ocarina of Time's exact graphics style. I partially agree that Twilight Princess was a game that was in a similar route as Ocarina of Time when it came to graphics style, but not the same. Twilight Princess was more of a failed horror type. I would say Twilight Princess was more like Resident Evil when it comes to graphics style. Twilight Princess tried to induce horror fear into the player, while Ocarina of Time was trying to induce fix-it feeling. This doesn't come out till you're adult Link. You are sent to a region of Hyrule, notice that stuff is not right, go beat a dungeon, and its fixed. You see other regions, and you're given the impression you need to do the same. As you progress you fix most of Hyrule till you have to defeat Ganon. Even when you have to defeat Ganon, you fix Hyrule as a whole.

In Twilight Princess, they tried to make you feel scared about whats around he corner. Twilight Princess did this by creating a scary atmosphere with dark clouds, creepy baddies and odd music. Then it gave you a safe feeling with light deities. You felt safe when you rescued them, but then Twilight Princess induces this fear again with the next region. However, this all was epic fail because the game was easy. In simple, I agree with him that Twilight Princess was easy, but it's not a total Ocarina of Time remake.

I could write a really long post about this, but it would be a waste of time since no one would read it all. This is a forums, so I'm curious how much you agree with Benzaie's video. How much do you agree with me?

Note to Article Staff, feel free to copy this thread in the article board, edit it, and use it as a news post.

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DARK MASTER

The Emperor
Joined
Apr 29, 2010
You said that Twilight Princess, had a crapy graphics style, but I disagree, because graphics don't matter, gamplay does. Also, Zelda has never had one fixed, graphics style, the 8 bit games, LDC games, CD-I games, N64 games, etc. So overall, what I'm saying is, any graphics style can fit Zelda. Zelda has no one style.
 
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Michael Heide

The 8th Wise Man
Joined
Oct 15, 2010
Location
Cologne, Germany
I have read that whole post despite your concerns, and I disagree quite a bit.
For one thing, some (not all) of the fan concerns about Wind Waker were justified. Not the art style. I loved the art style (even if I don't want to see more games in that exact same style). But Wind Waker had far bigger problems than the art style. But since much of the debate focuses on the art style, let's start with that.

1. Wind Waker's Graphics

Yes, there was a pre-rendered tech demo at an earlier E3 that showed a realistic Link duelling a realistic Ganondorf. Yes, fans were excited and subsequently surprised when Nintendo later revealed the cel-shading visuals of Wind Waker. Some people even complained that the cel-shaded graphics don't fit the Zelda series as a whole. Which is ridiculous, of course. Earlier games like Link to the Past and Link's Awakening had a highly cartoony art style as well, and they are still loved by the fans. I mean, nobody is going to tell me that this...
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...looks closer to this...
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...than to this?
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Dye the Hero of Wind's hair purple, and we've got an exact match to the SNES incarnation of Link.
No, the problem with Wind Waker's art style was that the game starts with a prologue (Outset Island, Forsaken Fortress, Windfall Island) and then throws you headfirst into the most beautiful dungeon in the whole game. Fragile wooden bridges over boiling magma, intense heat blurring the view, then suddenly you walk outside, go around the mountain in vertigo-inducing heights, only to get back to the lava pits for the beautiful, beautiful showdown against Gohma... The Dragon Roost Cavern is visually stunning. Sadly, it's kinda downhill from there. The second dungeon, the Forbidden Woods, is far less impressive than the first, and it's plain to see that Nintendo shot their wad too early. Now notice that we're just talking about the surface here. The Earth Temple in Wind Waker is the bleakest of them all, but it's my favorite dungeon in the whole series. Still, people were let down. Compared to the Dragon Roost Cavern, the rest of the game looked amazingly mediocre. Especially the sea. Yes, the map is huge, but the actual land you get to explore is just a tiny fraction of it. And everything else looks the same! Water in all directions. Water that, in Wind Waker's art style, is nothing but one huge blue blanket with the occasional enemy in it. How do you go from a stunning lava pit early on in the game to a huge blue blanket without realizing that it might be disappointing? And that only exacerbates problem #2:

2. Wind Waker's pacing

This is Wind Waker's biggest flaw. You start with the same old, same old Fire/Forest/Water trifecta that is supposed to represent the colors of the Goddesses but only serves to remind us of the far better designed dungeons from Ocarina of Time. Then you get the master sword, wake the two sages... and then you get to the Triforce shards and the game seriously tests your patience. A boring, unexciting chore (sail around on the big blue blanket, get a map, collect a ton of rupees so the most annoying character in the Zelda series can "translate it" (which always seemed odd to me, I mean we are talking about a treasure map, right? A visual representation of where the treasure is hidden? What is there to decipher? And why can't you do it yourself? But I digress), then sail some more across the big blue blanket) that you have to do eight times! With all due respect, how did nobody in the development team see that this might be massively boring?

3. Wind Waker followed Ocarina of Time too closely.
Now this might surprise a lot of people. How can Wind Waker, with its renegade art style and attitude follow Ocarina of Time too closely? Especially in a discussion about Twilight Princess? Well, I'm not talking about the art style nor the plot (young hero sets out to save his sister and gets dragged into a mystery around a sunken continent), they are obviously quite different. No, I'm referring to the structure of the game, which goes back all the way to Link to the Past. Go through three dungeons, get the master sword, find the sages (or their descendants), defeat Ganon. Now you might argue that this is just some sort of "classic" Zelda formula, but I disagree with that. The classic formula would be the one from the original Legend of Zelda. Go through each dungeon, get the artifact hidden there, and once you colected them all, go to the final boss. In the first NES game, it was the Triforce shards. In Link's Awakening, it was the musical instruments. In Majora's Mask, it was the Giants, represented by the masks of the bosses you fought. In Oracle of Ages, it was the essences of time.
Why is it that Twilight Princess gets called out for its parallels to OoT, but Wind Waker doesn't? Wind Waker is the game with the Deku Tree, the whale deity, Zelda's tomboyish secret identity, the Kokiri and Zora sages and the short Ganondorf scene once you left the woods, building up the confrontation later in the game.

4. Twilight Princess is a great game.
Now I've been a Zelda fan since 1990. Since before Link to the Past had even come out. I had prior knowledge of Ocarina of Time. And Twilight Princess is still my favorite 3D Zelda game (we need a new name for this style of game, now that we've got a "real 3D" game), and third favorite Zelda game of all time. It has a captivating story with great cut-scenes (that slo-mo scene of King Bulblin riding into Kakariko? Awesome), surprises (what do you mean, it was Ganondorf the whole time? What do you mean, that wasn't Midna's real form?). And the art style was as innovative as that of Wind Waker. Seriously. This is the first Zelda game with a realistic graphic style, after all. The NES was just crude pixels. The Super Nintendo and Game Boy version were cartoony sprites. The N64 games had blocky Final Fantasy VII type characters modelled with far too few polygons. And Wind Waker was a playable anime. As it stands, there are more games following the Wind Waker art style (Minish Cap, Phantom Hourglass, Spirit Tracks) then there are games following the Twilight Princess art style (uh... Crossbow Training).
Now I appreciate all Zelda games. Ocarina of Time is a great game (especially now that the 3DS version is available and the graphics don't look like cheap papercraft anymore). So is Wind Waker. But with Twilight Princess, they had fixed a lot of the problems of OoT and WW. We had a game that looked really good, had great gameplay and a captivating story. I mean, what more do you need?

And to see the halfway point between OoT's Temple of Time and LttP's withered old Master Sword pedestal? That was a nice touch. Calling that "catering to the OoT fanboys" completely misses the point.
 

misskitten

Hello Sweetie!
Joined
Jun 18, 2011
Location
Norway
I admit, I'm not a fan of the high cartoonish feel of Wind Waker, I like more details with characters and scenery, so I'm easily allured by the graphics styles of OoT/MM/TP/OoT3D. But I was willing to overlook this when trying out Wind Waker as a game, because people were raving about it. I haven't played it very far and here's why: high contrast graphics combined with sharp turns with Link makes my eyes hurt. It makes it uncomfortable for me to play the game. So I can't compare TP and WW as games, because I've only gone on one boat journey so far. I had no problem playing ST on my DS, though, cause while the style was fairly similar it was smaller, the contrast was toned down and there were no sharp turns, hence it was a much more comfortable gameplay. I really enjoyed playing ST and probably will enjoy playing PH as well when I get to it.

So that's my bit about the graphics. TP is without a doubt one of the more beautiful Zelda games. As for everything else, I agree with you that the characters move the plot and I really loved the story of TP. I don't agree that TP is a failed horrory-style. I don't think they intended the Twilight to be scary, more like eerie/creepy and I think that works well. So I feel the style works. And also, the style succeeding/failing does not really fall on the game being easy or hard. Yes, TP as a game is fairly easy (she says without having completed it yet, lol), but when you are in Twilight you are in Twilight and you are experiencing that scenery, regardless of how quickly you can make it light again.

Granted I am an OoT fangirl. It was my first Zelda and is still my favorite. TP appeals to me for many of the same reasons OoT does. I wouldn't compare the two, as I find them very different, but what I love the most about games like these are the huge beautiful landscapes to explore, sidequests and the like. It's the same reason I'm a hug Fable-fan. I love doing more than just the set gameplay :)
 

Phantom Zelda

Mostly Harmless
Joined
May 25, 2010
Location
East Clock Town
Well I do agree with you on some parts. I believe that graphics don't make a game. I loved your example on Minecraft. One of the best games I've played in a long time and it has crappy graphics. Also, I don't feel it was a complete Ocarina of Time ripoff. It had a lot of new stuff. And don't tell me it had the same first dungeon scheme, all (almost) Zelda games have forest, fire, water as there first dungeons. But it also took a lot of the things you mentioned from OoT.

Now to talk about Wind Waker. I think it is a great game and possibly one of my favorite Zeldas. But it does have flaws. The biggest one that's been pointed out millions of times by almost all fans is the giant ocean. Lets face it, it was boring to sail from one end of it to the other. But it had many good things to. The main one the review pointed out were the graphics. Now I know I said graphics don't matter but they were perfect. I loved the toon link look in the game. I loved how they weren't confined to a couple colors as they were in TP.

Sorry if this has all been said but I'm a little pressed for time and I didn't have time to read all of these long great posts in this thread :) . But to sum it all up I'd say I disagree with a lot of what this guy was saying in this video-review. I feel he compared it too much with Ocarina of Time and not enough with other 3d games in the Zelda series.
 

Austin

Austin
Joined
Feb 24, 2010
@Michael Heide
I thought about mentioning the things that a lot of gamers didn't like about Wind Waker outside the graphics, but I felt that it went off topic. You sort of seemed to that I hate Twilight Princess, or at least that's what I'm seeing. I don't hate the game, I just dislike a few things about it. I also mentioned that the review the guy did was way too late. Twilight Princess was a fun game for the first play through for any gamer (hardcore or beginner). It's just not a game that has any real multiple playthough value.

@MissKiten
That brought up a topic that I waned to bring up, but I didn't. Twilight Princess had very weak reason for exploration. They gave us a big world empty world. Wind Waker gave us many new islands that had odd reasons to explore. It was either to collect an item, chart or a heart piece. Some LoZ player's aren't big into collecting stuff unless it is an absolute. However, I like to collect stuff because it makes a game last longer, helps you with your quest, and occasionally adds more to the story. In fact, this idea is going to be seen in Skyward Sword with the floating islands.
 

Ventus

Mad haters lmao
Joined
May 26, 2010
Location
Akkala
Gender
Hylian Champion
My complaints about TP: Characters
I agree that the characters do give you a sense of admiration for them, but I also agree with Benzaie that a majority of the characters were useless. I mean, sure, the people of Ordon Village, Telma's Group, Midna, Zelda, Zant, Ganondork, and (obviously) Link are important. But that's what, 18ish characters maybe give or take a few? Whatever number of characters that actually gave Link a drive to protect Hyrule, it wasn't enough. There were a bunch of people in Castle Town, like the trio of girls like stalk whoever wins the STAR game, or the person who asks for money, or even that dude who has the money curse. No one remembers those people, because they weren't even prominent for the moment you run into them. For me, it was like "Oh hey, he's gold and stuff...but Midna told me to go to this place, so let's forget about him for a bit, I'll come back". But, I never did come back.
Look at Majora's Mask. Even the most obscure character gave you some kind of reward, and you remembered him/her because not only did you jot their name down in the Bomber's Notebook once you completed their task, but you also get a full ending once you do a certain requirement which shows almost all of the characters of the game celebrating, again the people in the Notebook and even people that weren't placed in the book. Characters in MM meant something even if they weren't important to the overall story, characters in TP still do not mean much of anything.

TP is too easy
I mean, there wasn't anything remotely hard about TP, except maybe Rollgoal. The dungeons were practically made so that a beginner could get through them in about 20-30 minute's time. The minigames (except Rollgoal but I get to that) were too easy, because it was almost literally "collect item, take item to character". The battle system, with Hidden Skills or without, doesn't require any thinking at all. In fact, if I wanted to take a Darknut on all I would need to do is run around smashing the B button while moving the control stick in a wide circle. It literally is that simple. If TP had more difficulty, preferably in the form of more enemies, more damage dealt to Link, dungeons requiring a lot of strategy and/or thinking and the enemies actually being smart, I wouldn't complain as much as I do.

TP's items are oneshot
Now I realize that the items of TP ARE used outside of the dungeons you get them in, but the spots where they are actually needed are very few. For example, the Slingshot: you get it near the start of the game, but once you get the Gale Boomerang and/or the Bow, it is never touched again. Why is that? Another item would be the Spinner: sure, you use it in Arbiter's Ground (the dungeon you get it in), and in a part of Hyrule Field to get a heart piece (or is it 200 rupees? I forgot), and another small part by the Hidden Village, but that's it for the most part. The items of TP are just basically useless. They sit in your inventory after you complete the dungeon you get them in, except for a few "staples" like the Bow, the Sword and Shield, the Clawshot (a new form of Hookshot), and that's all I can count at the moment. It's sad really.


Midna
Okay, this one really is just a personal gripe, but Midna is just annoying as I don't know what. She was rude the ENTIRE story, from the first time you meet her even when she says her goodbye. At first, she treats Link like a slave. Then, once she gets her plot twist, she is STILL ordering Link around and even goes so far to ask a favor of him despite being more than just unkind to him. I really hate Midna, and would much prefer another Navi than her. :mad:

Rupees have no purpose
Face it, rupees in this game have no purpose EXCEPT to resupply bombs and to give power to the Magic Armor. I mean, you CAN go buy a Red Potion or Blue Potion or whatever, but then again, damage isn't dealt in huge packets like it was back in TWW, OoT, and especially ALttP where without the Red Tunic, you could potentially take around 8 hearts of damage from a certain enemy.

There just isn't anything to do
Once you beat the main story, assuming you haven't done any of the optional sidequests, you have a few minigames in Castle Town, a huge, boring fetch quest called the Golden Bugs, Goat Herding in Ordon Village, a couple grottos here and there in Hyrule Field, the Cave of Ordeals, and a couple other minigames that are painstakingly easy. Seriously, TP just lacks a lot of stuff that older titles had, and it disappoints me to say that.

That's all I have to say about TP at the moment, I mean, the game IS a great game, but it has a lot of stuff I don't particularly like.
 

Michael Heide

The 8th Wise Man
Joined
Oct 15, 2010
Location
Cologne, Germany
@Michael Heide
You sort of seemed to that I hate Twilight Princess, or at least that's what I'm seeing.
I didn't think that you hate the game. But Benzaie obviously does.
But I see that my post above started out as a direct response to yours, only to digress into a general defense of Twilight Princess against criticism in general.
 
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425

Hero of…. #s, I guess
Joined
Mar 22, 2011
Location
Skyloft
Look at Majora's Mask. Even the most obscure character gave you some kind of reward, and you remembered him/her because not only did you jot their name down in the Bomber's Notebook once you completed their task, but you also get a full ending once you do a certain requirement which shows almost all of the characters of the game celebrating, again the people in the Notebook and even people that weren't placed in the book. Characters in MM meant something even if they weren't important to the overall story, characters in TP still do not mean much of anything.

I agree that characters were better in Majora's Mask, but, come on, it's Majora's Mask. The very style of that game is what gave it great characters. Look at OoT. The characters there were about on par with TP.

TP is too easy
I mean, there wasn't anything remotely hard about TP, except maybe Rollgoal. The dungeons were practically made so that a beginner could get through them in about 20-30 minute's time. The minigames (except Rollgoal but I get to that) were too easy, because it was almost literally "collect item, take item to character". The battle system, with Hidden Skills or without, doesn't require any thinking at all. In fact, if I wanted to take a Darknut on all I would need to do is run around smashing the B button while moving the control stick in a wide circle. It literally is that simple. If TP had more difficulty, preferably in the form of more enemies, more damage dealt to Link, dungeons requiring a lot of strategy and/or thinking and the enemies actually being smart, I wouldn't complain as much as I do.

Actually, TP having been my first Zelda game, I struggled with the dungeons, and the combat was honestly no cakewalk, unless you never went to the Cave of Ordeals and glitched past all the Darknuts (which, IMO, were harder than anyone common enemy in OoT besides maybe the Iron Knuckles.

If you are looking for easy, look no further than WIND WAKER. The combat can be learned in thirty seconds, honestly, to kill all the enemies, you just have to press "A" at the appropriate time (I thought Moblins were supposed to be tough...). And the dungeons were far more simple and less innovative than TP. I mean, just compare something like the Wind Temple or the Tower of the Gods to something like Arbiter's Grounds or Snowpeak Mansion.

TP's items are oneshot
Now I realize that the items of TP ARE used outside of the dungeons you get them in, but the spots where they are actually needed are very few. For example, the Slingshot: you get it near the start of the game, but once you get the Gale Boomerang and/or the Bow, it is never touched again. Why is that? Another item would be the Spinner: sure, you use it in Arbiter's Ground (the dungeon you get it in), and in a part of Hyrule Field to get a heart piece (or is it 200 rupees? I forgot), and another small part by the Hidden Village, but that's it for the most part. The items of TP are just basically useless. They sit in your inventory after you complete the dungeon you get them in, except for a few "staples" like the Bow, the Sword and Shield, the Clawshot (a new form of Hookshot), and that's all I can count at the moment. It's sad really.

Once again, I direct you to Wind Waker, where, first of all, there were far too few items, and second, two of these could have just been one (Hookshot and Grappling Hook? Was that really necessary?), plus, the Spyglass is another one, and is entirely worthless. TP has a lot of useless items, yes, but it's not the only game.


Midna
Okay, this one really is just a personal gripe, but Midna is just annoying as I don't know what. She was rude the ENTIRE story, from the first time you meet her even when she says her goodbye. At first, she treats Link like a slave. Then, once she gets her plot twist, she is STILL ordering Link around and even goes so far to ask a favor of him despite being more than just unkind to him. I really hate Midna, and would much prefer another Navi than her. :mad:

*Coughs and points at Tatl*

Rupees have no purpose
Face it, rupees in this game have no purpose EXCEPT to resupply bombs and to give power to the Magic Armor. I mean, you CAN go buy a Red Potion or Blue Potion or whatever, but then again, damage isn't dealt in huge packets like it was back in TWW, OoT, and especially ALttP where without the Red Tunic, you could potentially take around 8 hearts of damage from a certain enemy.

I'll give you this one.

There just isn't anything to do
Once you beat the main story, assuming you haven't done any of the optional sidequests, you have a few minigames in Castle Town, a huge, boring fetch quest called the Golden Bugs, Goat Herding in Ordon Village, a couple grottos here and there in Hyrule Field, the Cave of Ordeals, and a couple other minigames that are painstakingly easy. Seriously, TP just lacks a lot of stuff that older titles had, and it disappoints me to say that.

Once again, I feel like you're expecting Majora's Mask. To me, it seems like in the minigame department, TP is just a couple of trading sequences shy of OoT.
 

SinkingBadges

The Quiet Man
That comparison with Misery just echoes my thoughts from the first time I played TP. I personally always felt that it was just too much fan-service and not enough of its own thing. The plot felt more like a very good fan-fiction rather than a pot that would've been set up by the devs. That scene where Link gets the Master Sword just screamed that to me. It felt like an OoT fanboy's dream. But like 425 said, if it's your first time, you probably will stand those gripes better.

@MissKiten
That brought up a topic that I waned to bring up, but I didn't. Twilight Princess had very weak reason for exploration. They gave us a big world empty world. Wind Waker gave us many new islands that had odd reasons to explore. It was either to collect an item, chart or a heart piece. Some LoZ player's aren't big into collecting stuff unless it is an absolute. However, I like to collect stuff because it makes a game last longer, helps you with your quest, and occasionally adds more to the story. In fact, this idea is going to be seen in Skyward Sword with the floating islands.
.

That is actually an interesting idea. I never thought TP had weak exploration, mainly because I was never much of a completionist. I often go through the main quest and leave it at that, or at least that's what I did the first time I played TP like 4 years ago. I've changed a lot since then, but I'm still somewhat main quest oriented. Despite that, I can see people complaining because the hidden places I've found so far are mostly places to get rupees. That made it feel kind of pointless to go through the puzzles in some places to me. Now I don't really know what to think of it, honestly.

Once again, I direct you to Wind Waker, where, first of all, there were far too few items, and second, two of these could have just been one (Hookshot and Grappling Hook? Was that really necessary?), plus, the Spyglass is another one, and is entirely worthless. TP has a lot of useless items, yes, but it's not the only game.

Well, it seems like a matter of playstyles here. Some people used the Grappling Hook to steal items mainly. Others preferred to use the Hookshot to pull enemies towards them or vice-versa. I think WW, by having fewer items, managed to get a more consistent use of them while TP gave you many that were only used once. The spinner and the B&C, for example, were useful at their time, but were not really practical for anything else than their primary functions. The only item I can think of like that in Wind Waker is the telescope, and it was a matter of playstyle.

Still, you could argue other games having useless items, its just that WW isn't a very strong example of that.
 
Joined
Jan 17, 2011
Location
21 Jump St.
You said that Twilight Princess, had a crapy graphics style, but I disagree, because graphics don't matter, gamplay does. Also, Zelda has never had one fixed, graphics style, the 8 bit games, LDC games, CD-I games, N64 games, etc. So overall, what I'm saying is, any graphics style can fit Zelda. Zelda has no one style.

Well the style of graphics does matter, especially as the artistic style of games becomes more prominent in their appeal. Artistic games existed before Windwaker, but it serves as a great example of the growing place games have for artistic innovation. WW changed the way people thought about artistic style in games. After we got over the initial shock factor of the art style, it became one of the most well-liked games in the franchise, at least partially due to its bold new style.

When people say things like "graphics don't matter, gameplay does", I agree with that statement when it refers to technical aspects of graphics like the fineness of textures, polygon counts, etc., but when it comes to artistic styles in graphics, then yes, graphics absolutely do matter, sometimes as much as gameplay. This, of course, doesn't apply to all games, Minecraft being an example, but I don't think statements like "graphics don't matter", as a general statement, are true.

In the case of Twilight princess, while the style of the graphics in the final product weren't a miss, in my opinion, they weren't a selling point either. They were realistic, but they retained some of the cell-shading style seen in Windwaker, making the graphics seem like they didn't quite know what they were shooting for. Remember the E3 2004 trailer for Twilight Princess? The graphics were purely realistic and didn't have any trace of WW's style, sending a message to the fan base that Zelda was taking them somewhere they'd never been before. I thought this was a great choice, since the technology was finally there and it really was a new direction for the graphical style to take, but when the game was released, it looked like it dragged some of Windwaker's style with it. This is a pretty minor point, and Twilight Princess's artistic style is certainly not what made it a lesser Zelda game for me, but this is why they didn't do much for the game in my opinion.

...he brings up the idea of the characters being sort of unimportant. I have to disagree because characters bring motivation to the game. In a story, you are given characters. You learn about them, develop feelings for them, etc.
When he was talking about characters, I don't think he was saying that characters in general aren't important, but rather commenting on the new characters the game tried to introduce, but failed to develop, giving the example of Telma's little group of freedom fighters. Because they're underdeveloped, we don't learn about them or develop feelings for them, as we do for properly developed characters. In my opinion, it's not even just that the characters are underdeveloped, there's just nothing interesting about them, making them unmemorable. Think of the hand that comes out of the toilet at the stock pot inn. He's just a guy in a toilet with two lines of dialogue, but he stands out and stays in your memory because of the uniqueness of his character and role he plays, despite its minority, in your adventure. The freedom fighters don't have interesting factors to their personality and they don't do anything interesting. They just lead you to a few temples. Sort of.

The only character I really cared about, possibly surprisingly to some of you, was Midna. For one thing, she probably has the most dialogue out of any character in the game, inherently developing her more than any other. Even though she's a bit of a *****, her development gives her multiple dimensions, allowing us to see that she is other things in addition to a *****, and making her a better character.

As for the gameplay itself, I didn't mind the parts played as a human, though I do agree with Benzaie on the topics of items and the rehashed pattern of 3 temples, master sword, a few more temples, Ganon to be getting old. I found the wolf sections incredibly boring.

This post has gone on way too long, and, given that it's 3AM, I'm not even 100% sure it even makes sense, so I'll quit while I'm ahead.
 

Hanyou

didn't build that
People who've known me for a long time know I have no shortage of hatred for Twilight Princess. Just recounting what I hate about the game is so draining for me that I don't know if I can do it.

Visuals: The art style is repulsive, generic, and unbelievably dull. Every prior Zelda game showed that the developers had ambition, but were willing to work within the limitations of their system. Ocarina had a few weak points in terms of execution (mostly rock textures, which were stretched), but for the most part it was a colorful game that was internally consistent and it just worked. EVERY TEXTURE in Twilight Princess looked even more muddy and stretched than the rock textures in Ocarina of Time, and there was little contrast. What this showed was that Nintendo did NOT work within the limitations of the hardware. Starfox Adventures, Metroid Prime, Pikmin, and even Star Wars: Rogue Leader do an exponentially better job of painting believable worlds, and while they are not all completely "realistic," they do show that Gamecube hardware is capable of painting vibrant worlds that actually do have elements that look like they've been ripped straight from our reality.

I'm sorry, but Twilight Princess is just an ugly game. Objectively. No one will ever convince me otherwise. It shows a complete lack of visual design, instead catering to the lowest common denominator of Western taste: unmitigated, bland darkness without any wonder or semblance of originality.

I am in love with Skyward Sword's art style. I hope Nintendo continues to take this route.

Story: I'm not going into this too much, but it's driven entirely by the abrasive Midna. We're supposed to care about the Twilight Realm when we rarely see it (and when we do, it's much more boring than Hyrule). This is just bad writing. As for Ilia, the amnesiac whose whole role is to ***** at Link for mistreating Epona (what?) and then become nothing more than a worthless motivator, I can't bring myself to give a damn about her.

None of this would be much of a problem if it were backstory relegated to a manual, but the fact is the game is very plot-driven. As is the case with the graphics, Nintendo didn't understand its limitations here. They just threw out random plot elements and hope they worked. This is very different from Link's Awakening, Ocarina of Time, The Wind Waker, and Majora's Mask, which show how to write a story for a Zelda game. One thing clearly led to another, but the stories still had scope that allowed every region and character to be incorporated. Twilight Princess is perhaps more ambitious than Ocarina of Time and Link's Awakening, but it's not nearly as successful.

Gameplay: Linear, lacking in exploration, arbitrary, and disjointed. These elements will not destroy a gaming experience on their own; together, they can, and Twilight Princess showcases all of them. There's no real reason for it to be linear, but it is; you're led by the hand by a boring troupe of characters whose names I can't remember for no good reason, and major parts of the overworld are blocked off not by obstacles managed with items, but by the plot. What a terrible design decision for a Zelda game. It removes any sense of accomplishment from the player and it betrays everything Zelda's supposed to be about. Previous Zelda games were linear; none were as unnecessarily and obstinately linear.

When Nintendo did try to change things up, they failed. The wolf controls are sloppy, slippery, and unnatural. Assuming the wolf form is more of an annoyance than an asset, especially at the beginning of the game when the browner-than-normal Twilight Realm is hindering your progress. Ugh.

I have more to say about the gameplay, but I won't say it now. Suffice to say, Twilight Princess is a chore.

A special word on "darkness:" I hear people throw around the word "dark" liberally to describe everything about this game, and they usually do so in its defense, as if it's automatically a good thing. I like dark fantasy and science fiction (Hyperion is one of my favorite books!). But absolute darkness is usually juvenile for a long story, showing little respect for nuance and tone. Even horror films, when they're worth watching, build up their characters by showing them as everyday individuals or at least making them interesting in some way that's not "dark."

Twilight Princess is not as "dark" as people say it is, but it does try to be. You can tell that Nintendo wanted to make it a melancholy experience. The problem is that instead of ever being genuinely dark, it's just dull. Everything--from the muted story to the muted colors--operates with lethargy. People mistake this for maturity or genuine darkness when it's really just laziness, artificial darkness meant to create atmosphere without ever really knowing how. Yes, there were also moments meant to be funny, whimsical, and adventurous, but the brown world and foreign plot kept them from being the oases they should have been.

Have people ever really thought about why they find Majora's Mask dark? I'll answer that: Majora's Mask has contrast. This is important. Fantasies can especially benefit from sharp contrasts in tone, and this style has always worked for Zelda; rather than being uniformly dull, it will swing you wildly from one emotion to the other, and in an odd way emulate the human experience in the real world. Majora's Mask is actually a very bright, colorful, funny, exciting game, but its moments of darkness and its overall story act as very effective exclamation points. High fantasy at its best. It's for this same reason that people praise movies like The Empire Strikes Back--they take us by surprise, but still provide us with plenty of fun while they're at it. I suppose Nintendo could craft a Dune-type story, something that manages to exhibit a consistent tone of melancholy. Morrowind and Riven are games that actually achieved this (and used browns well, I should add!). I think the Metroid series actually manages to do this on occasion. But they obviously didn't know how to do this when they were making Twilight Princess. Maybe they were halfhearted about it because they realized it betrayed a fundamental tenet of the Zelda experience--adventure.

Summary of this last section: "Darkness" is not inherently good, and Twilight Princess fails at it, mostly due to the development team's inept attempts at sparse contrast and consistent melancholy.

I don't know if I've expressed myself as well as I'd like here. My thoughts were a bit disorganized. I'll just say the mangled, disorderly nature of this post is a tribute to Twilight Princess's tone, style, and ridiculous plot and leave it at that.

EDIT: Oh, and TP is nothing like Ocarina of Time. Thought I'd throw that out there. While I hate this game, my criticisms only partly intersect with Benzaie's. A lack of innovation isn't a huge problem in my view, as long as things are done well. Also,

I believe strongly if he had made this review near the games initial release, it would be a lot less negative.

I was every bit as negative about Twilight Princess in early 2007 when I first played it, and I've known several people who've shared my opinion for just as long. Oftentimes, we were shut down by people who thought positively of the game and accused us of being "blinded by nostalgia" for Ocarina of Time (which makes little sense; I loved The Wind Waker and liked Majora's Mask). I think it's just that people are more willing to listen now.

I wouldn't be surprised if Benzaie's always felt this way.
 
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