It has come to my concern that there are issues with the the spoiler infraction policy, and I was asked to make a thread about it. As of currently, the spoiler infraction policy is pretty lenient, and it is to be used for rare occasions. There arises debate with the agreement of what is a spoiler and what is not; another dealing with what games, boards, etc should the spoiler policy effect. For example, should Twilight Princess be consider a spoiler? Should the game help require users to fore-warn about spoilers?
The first problem we must solve is whether to keep or loose the spoiler policy. Should we have infractions for the spoilers and why? Should we even have the BB code for spoilers?
Assuming that we have BB code for spoilers and etc. Should we have infractions for them? Should we define some definition on what is consider infraction case or not; or should we just leave it up the members? We trust our members that they do spoiler warnings on their own, and if they forget or choose not to, they don't get any infraction.
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My personal response is that we keep it. We may have to revise our rules section to give members a clearer understanding. My reason is that I fear people will either leave our forums or don't visit. With the release of new Skyward Sword, a lot of our hardcore gamers are going to avoid the forums because they don't want anything spoiled. The new members registering may just leave right away at the sight of spoilers. That being said I don't believe many of our members would take on the responsibility of giving warning of spoilers on their own.
I say keep it. It'll help with those who hates know the answer to a question. Though you should specify these in all sections related to Zelda, especially the game help section. That section tends to have spoilers like how to beat a boss, what will happen, where will you find this item and all that jazz.
Here's a thought:
Why not add something like, editing a spoiler?
Say, you used a spoiler tag, then you can label it as either what happens in the game or what is the best way to beat the boss.
To be able to add a tag would work wonders! It would not only elaborate on the spoiler that could potentially ruin the game, but it would clean up things and help reduce unnecessary spoiler tags in threads.
Apologies for the shortness of the post, but I didnt have much to say
I think we should keep the Spoilers BB Code and the Spoilers tags. Why? Because some people want to figure things out for themselves. I am not one of those people, I guess I just like instant gratification. But many people don't want the story spoiled.
I agree, though. You will have to make it very clear as to what a spoiler actually is, and what games it applies to. You can't just say that anything pertaining to games prior to Twilight Princess isn't a spoiler, and anything including and through TP is a spoiler. TP has been out there for 4+ years now. I think that during the first year or two after the release of a new game is a good guideline. For example, if Skyward Sword is released in August, give it a year before becoming more lenient on SS spoilers. During that year afthe release, you would have an infraction for violations of the rule. But you can let up after so long.
The only problem is that you will have to be very specific with what a spoiler actually is, and what the infraction results in.
I agree, though. You will have to make it very clear as to what a spoiler actually is, and what games it applies to. You can't just say that anything pertaining to games prior to Twilight Princess isn't a spoiler, and anything including and through TP is a spoiler. TP has been out there for 4+ years now. I think that during the first year or two after the release of a new game is a good guideline. For example, if Skyward Sword is released in August, give it a year before becoming more lenient on SS spoilers. During that year afthe release, you would have an infraction for violations of the rule. But you can let up after so long.
The only problem is that you will have to be very specific with what a spoiler actually is, and what the infraction results in.
This is my thought exactly, there needs to be a tighter definition on what can be spoiled and what cannot.
Honestly I do not believe this system will work at all until all the Admins, mods, HN, etc get together, take some time out, and discuss it very thoroughly until a final decision is made and a complete set in stone definition is announced on exactly what will be a spoiler on ZD. Not a small set of spoiler rules with exceptions and generalizations. When an absolute decision is finally achieved then come here, spell the rules out, and then make an announcement.
People will require an absolute concrete definition of exactly what will be considered a spoiler and exactly what is not. As long as you continue to toy around with these nebulous definitions with maybe this, but not here, sometimes this but not this, there will always be confusion. The rules we have now means that just about any special aspect of any title no matter how old or new can be mistaken as a spoiler, or not. It would depend upon the personal opinion of the individual reading at that specific point in time. And each person can have different opinions on exactly what is defined under the ill defined rules mentioned. Tell people what is allowed and what is not. Without doing so people will continue to break rules that they do not personally believe they are breaking because in their opinion, they have followed the rules correctly.
Right now some people are saying that the rules only apply to new games. While others say yes new games, but also sensitive information in old games as well. Now there is talk of adding OoT to the list and that games has been out 14 years. Any and all information has already been spoiled many years ago and honestly does not make sense for a game so old to be under any spoiler rules while younger games are not. This leads to confusion among some members that all games within the last 14 years will also fall under the spoiler rules and they will report/rep the posts immediately. While the poster does not know that they did anything wrong since they believe that they have not spoiled anything. We do not need possible infraction worthy decisions made on the personal opinions when not everyone in charge shares that opinion. Everyone much be in perfect agreement first.
I'm in favor of people being courteous, so I don't disagree with trying to encourage that. Here's my concern with too strict of a spoiler policy: a thread becomes a string of spoiler quotes instead of discussion. It also sets a different standard here than on the main page. In our articles, videos, etc, I've not seen any spoiler warnings (I may be overlooking them) - it's a given that if you're reading something that covers different Zelda games, you might get spoiled for something you haven't played yet. To me, if the thread title is specific enough, you should have enough forewarning to know that you might be spoiled. For example, "Biggest shocks in a Zelda game"? High spoiler potential, and personally adequate enough warning that I don't think spoiler quotes should be necessary or every single post will have them. A "Favorite Locations" thread, however, might not need spoiler text for the most part, though occasionally might warrant it - as an example, if someone wanted to talk about the twist in Wind Waker.
Still, I think that should be more of a courtesy than a policy - I'm more in favor of discussion not being stymied for the older games than I am in warning for spoilers. And honestly, I count "Twilight Princess" in that - it was released more than four years ago. I came into the forums not having played most of the Zelda games, but I knew that potential spoilers was part of the risk of being on a Zelda discussion board. I'd judge if I wanted to read a thread based on its thread title, or the forum it was located in, and that worked pretty well for me. I didn't have the opportunity to play some of the games I was interested in right away (like Wind Waker) but I didn't expect fans of that game to not discuss it because of that.
Skyward Sword, on the other hand, I fully support the spoiler policy being in effect, and for some time at that - mainly based on the fact that it's the newest release and people may not be able to play it right away. I compare it to when the last Harry Potter book was released - I wanted the full effect for myself and avoided a lot of places in the days before its release. So from personal experience, I think Justin's right that people might avoid the forums because of that if we don't have a policy in place. I'd also see if it's feasible to recommend all discussion of the game be limited to that forum for some time after release - there may need to be exceptions, such as in the theory section, but in general the simpler the policy, the better. Which is another reason I'd be more in favor of just limiting it to Skyward Sword. "Warn for spoilers for this game and don't post about it outside this board" is easy for people to remember. Regardless of the end result of the policy, it should be easy to understand, or else people might decide posting is more trouble than it's worth, which defeats the purpose of the forums.
ETA: I forgot to mention, I think spoiler tags are useful even if there's NOT a strict policy, but actually more so outside of the Zelda sections. There's a general gaming thread about saddest/emotional games. On the one hand, it has a spoiler prefix, and most people can guess that if will have spoiler potential. On the other, it covers so many different games, there's a high probability that many people won't have played the game you are talking about. It was very useful for me there so that I didn't spoil a game for a future fan. And it's better than having to stick the warning in text, stick spoiler space around it, etc, because people can still accidentally miss the warning that way.
ETA again: Also, one more thing. Perhaps the forum descriptions could include a note about the spoiler policy in effect there. For example the Zelda Theory section currently states "Timeline Theory discussion as well as theories on the various characters, locations, and races of the Zelda World." It would be relatively easy to add on to that, "Spoiler policy NOT in effect for this section; read at your own risk."
I also think keeping the tags, rule, and infraction would be best. It's a matter of which group is larger: potential members who want to avoid spoilers or existing members who are too lazy to add a few extra words to their posts. I think the former is larger, and the latter aren't people that we should be particularly concerned with keeping anyway.
Which boards should be exempt? Only Theory and Help. People shouldn't be theorizing if they refuse to acknowledge all the facts, and Help is full of people asking for spoilers, so every thread would have the prefix if it was enforced there. Instead, a small warning should be added to their descriptions.
The only time I think an infraction for spoilers is appropriate is when a user is purposely trying to ruin the story for someone, for which case there may be more appropriate infractions such as trolling. But I see the warning as necessary for other cases, and for each warning there must also be an infraction.
Which games should be protected? I think TP is old enough to be exempt by now. SS info should obviously be protected, though I'm not sure about ST. I also think that OoT and maybe LA spoilers should be concealed at this point. Yes, they've been out for a while, but the remakes may bring new people in who didn't know anything about them previously.
I may have suggested this before, but I agree that an attribute to the spoiler tag to describe the spoiler would be very useful, such as [noparse]
*insert answer here*
or [spoiler type="boss"]*insert description here*[/spoiler][/noparse]
Should we define what a spoiler is? Certainly. Should we define what each level of corrective measure is for? Yes, but carefully. If it's defined too rigidly, it would encourage members to complain about what they think (based on a subjective analysis of the spoiler) was an unjust infraction. It should be reasonably defined so people know what to expect, but it should also be clear that it's ultimately up to the mod's interpretation of how severe the offense was.
I suggest you revise the infraction description in the rules thread and add another post like you did for signature sizes. Something like this:
I would revise the infraction description as follows, to incorporate my definition of "spoiler" (or one that the community agrees on - feel free to discuss this), and the two games being re-released. If there is any section merging it may have to be revised again to reflect that.
Failure to Warn or Hide Spoilers (2 points): We all enjoy playing new Legend of Zelda games without the storyline/puzzles being ruined by spoilers. Spoilers are any information about a recent or upcoming game's story, characters, puzzles, bosses, items, etc. that is supposed to be revealed at a certain point within the game. We have two methods in which you can warn or hide spoilers. One is using a spoiler prefix with your thread. The other is using our spoiler tags. These tags will hide the text and will not be shown till a button is clicked. This rule will be monitored with Spirit Tracks and newer games - including Ocarina of Time and Link's Awakening, being re-released on the 3DS - and heavily monitored with Skyward Sword, as it will be brand new later this year. The boards that will not applicable to this rules are Game Help and Zelda Theory. [link to a post containing these guidelines:]
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Defining "spoiler"
We will define "spoiler" as any information about a recent* or upcoming** game's story, characters, puzzles, bosses, items, etc. that is supposed to be revealed at a certain point within the game.
*recent: released less than a year ago. (time period subject to change) (At the time this was posted, this applied to no games, except perhaps Spirit Tracks, depending on what the general consensus on "recent" is)
**upcoming: includes new games, re-releases, and ports. The story of a re-released/ported game is the same or very similar to that of the original, so even discussion of the original should be concealed. (At the time this was posted, this applied to Skyward Sword, Ocarina of Time, and Link's Awakening.
By this definition, anything contained on the game's box or in its manual is fair game, as that information is supposed to be read before starting the game anyway. Information from interviews, press releases, trailers, advance copies of the game, etc. should be concealed, as they are only meant to be revealed to those who are looking for spoilers, if at all.
It is safe to assume that information about a game's exposition, including the main character (e.g. Link) and location (e.g. Skyloft), as well as general information about the game itself, such as its title and release date, will appear on the box or in the manual and as such does not have to be concealed, as long as one is careful not to mix it with more sensitive information such as supporting characters, villains, and what is special about the location, e.g.
Zelda, Ganondorf, the fact that the Great Sea conceals Hyrule, respectively.
Using the spoiler prefix
When creating a thread that focuses on or contains spoilers, the "Spoiler" prefix must be selected in the drop-down menu above the thread's title.
You shouldn't have to worry about the thread's non-spoiler subject prompting someone else to post spoilers, as the BBCode spoiler tag exists for that purpose. If you forsee the spoilers contained in these responses becoming overly abundant and/or vital to the discussion, then the spoiler prefix is appropriate.
Make sure the title is spoiler-free, even if using the Spoiler prefix. This is viewable from both the thread list and the main forum page.
Try to make the first paragraph spoiler-free. Even if it is contained in spoiler tags, hovering the cursor over a thread in the thread list - intentionally or not - displays a preview of the first post.
Using the spoiler tag
Describe what the spoiler is about outside the tag so that people are able to make a rational decision about whether they want to view the information. For example:
I don't think that boss was very difficult. All you had to do was
do X
to defeat him.
The spoiler tag is not needed within a thread marked with the Spoiler prefix. The prefix flags the entire thread as containing spoiler, and anyone who looks inside such a thread can be assumed to not be concerned with spoilers.
When in doubt, use the tag. There is no infraction for overuse (unless it becomes a problem, such as abuse).
Enforcement
The rule will not be enforced in the Zelda Theory or Game Help sections. When theorizing, it is important to be willing to consider all available information, so theorists are assumed to want to know everything about a given subject. In the Game Help section, people specifically ask for spoilers pertaining to puzzles, bosses, etc.
Before SS is released, it will take some time for members to get used to the new rule, so we'll be more lenient and helpful.
-A first offense will yield a PM (or a warning for more extreme cases)
-A second offense will yield a warning (or an infraction for more extreme cases)
-A third offense will yield an infraction
After SS is released, we will see many new members coming to talk about it, some of whom may not want to view spoilers. There will also be a lot more spoilers available, so this rule will be enforced slightly more strictly.
-A first offense will yield a warning (or infraction for more extreme cases)
-A second offense will yield an infraction
Moderators are not bound to this guideline and may issue any level of corrective measure as they see fit. Some factors that contribute to their decision include the severity of the information being spoiled (e.g. the story's ending versus the solution to one puzzle), the intent behind revealing the information unconcealed (e.g. if one didn't think it was a spoiler versus if one specifically wanted to ruin the experience for others - extreme cases may receive a more severe infraction such as trolling), and past offenses.
The one issue would be that people may be discouraged from reading such a long and detailed description and either ignore the rule or just not post at all (or worst case - leave). How likely are things like this to be read?
Of course the details such as affected games would be changed to reflect the decisions reached in this thread.
To my mind most topics that contain spoilers will obviously have them anyway. If you wander on to the Game Help section then expect things to be spoiled for you. Same with Zelda Theory. I think the only rules regarding the spoilers is that you should not have spoilers in the Thread title and if a subject is about one game you should use spoiler tags for any spoilers relating to another (in the case of cross-referencing etc). I haven't played all the Zelda games and I've kept the ones I haven't played unspoiled by not reading any topics relating to them. It's just common sense.
Failure to Warn or Hide Spoilers (2 points): We all enjoy playing new Legend of Zelda games without the storyline/puzzles being ruined by spoilers. Spoilers are any thing that will give away the story line. For example: the story line plot, a solution to a puzzle/dungeon, real identity of a mysterious character, etc. We have two methods in which you can warn or hide spoilers. One is using a spoiler prefix with your thread. The other is using our spoiler tags. These tags will hide the text and will not be shown till a button is clicked. This rule will be monitored with Twilight Princess and newer games and heavily monitored with Skyward Sword, as it will be brand new later this year. The boards that will not applicable to this rules are Game Help and Zelda Theory.
There seems to be confusion with the mods and with the users as to what exactly incurs a spoiler infraction/warning. Either way it goes it needs to be absolutely clear what is a spoiler and what is not a spoiler... So that if EVERY MOD and EVERY MEMBER look at a post... they can say "yes that is a spoiler" or "no that isn't a spoiler" and all agree.
if the policy is kept, I request that we modify the policy to make it CLEAR as to what is considered a spoiler and what is not. Are end game details for OoT considered spoilers? Under the current policy No they are not... so under the current policy should infractions/warnings be issued for OoT? No,they should not.
Now, as for should the policy change? Yeah I think there's no need for a spoiler infraction. Spoiler tags should be kept... and unless someone is intending to troll through their non-use of spoiler tags. I really dont see the harm. Allow people to USE spoiler tags as they so feel led. But everyone should know that when they come onto a zelda forum there is going to be talk of the game. its a Readers beware market in my opinion.
So overall I think removal of the spoiler warning/infraction would be best for ZD. However if the masses decide to keep it I do think a change in wording of the current policy needs to be made to help EVERYONE be on the same page
Without reading everything in this post... my thoughts are rather simple...
Anything that isn't Skyward Sword or OoT 3D... shouldn't have spoilers. At this point in time, it seems silly to stick a Spoiler tag on something from Oracle of Seasons. Thus, any spoiler discussion should only be for new games.
I agree with most of the people here. I think there should be some sort of understanding over what classes as a spoiler and what does not. I would have thought all the games need spoiler tags for people who haven't played them before. I think giving infractions is the right thing to do but there needs to be a clear, clear way of defining one spoiler from another, so that it is fully fair on everyone. I actually haven't used the spoiler tags yet, but in the article I am writing they will probably make a rather large appearance, but they definitely help. But yes, on to keep the infractions, in my opinion.
I also think keeping the tags, rule, and infraction would be best. It's a matter of which group is larger: potential members who want to avoid spoilers or existing members who are too lazy to add a few extra words to their posts. I think the former is larger, and the latter aren't people that we should be particularly concerned with keeping anyway.
Which games should be protected? I think TP is old enough to be exempt by now. SS info should obviously be protected, though I'm not sure about ST. I also think that OoT and maybe LA spoilers should be concealed at this point. Yes, they've been out for a while, but the remakes may bring new people in who didn't know anything about them previously.
Spoiler tags are mandatory for plot details, easter eggs and strategies concerning every game that
a) hasn't been released yet,
b) has been available for less than 12 months in the US and Europe
c) doesn't run on any current-gen hardware and/or virtual console.
Problem solved. This rule is easy to understand, there are no grey areas, and it covers games like SWS and Link's Awakening (in all three versions), but not Twilight Princess or Spirit Tracks, since those two came out more than 12 months ago. It allows for tag-free discussions about Ocarina of Time (since it's available as two different Wii-compatible Gamecube discs (WW bonus disc and Collector's Edition) and on the Wii's Virtual Console), but not about Ocarina of Time 3D (assuming that the differences between those versions are more than just superficial).
I may have suggested this before, but I agree that an attribute to the spoiler tag to describe the spoiler would be very useful, such as [noparse]
*insert answer here*
or [spoiler type="boss"]*insert description here*[/spoiler][/noparse]
At this point in time, it seems silly to stick a Spoiler tag on something from Oracle of Seasons. Thus, any spoiler discussion should only be for new games.
You have to take into consideration that there could either be people new to the series that have only played one title and have been curious about the others, or perhaps a person that's been a fan of the series for a while yet hasn't been able to get around it, with me being the latter. I haven't played Oracle of Ages/Seasons at all, and I would prefer to not know how the game ends until I actually get there.
Perhaps for the newer titles, we can definitely keep that rule in there, but for the older titles, we might have to be a bit more lenient. However, what is defined as a spoiler can vary from person to person. Zelda's goodbye quote at the end of Ocarina of Time could be seen as a spoiler as some, but not to others. Skyward Sword, we definitely will need to enforce this rule with an iron fist.
Ocarina of Time 3D, I honestly think that unless if they change up the plot or add stuff, it should fall under an older-game rule. Honestly, I'd think the rule for older games should be that if it isn't a dramatic plot twist or the ending, then it's fine. Bosses and characters and stuff are fine, just don't have too many plot details.
Yes, I do believe that we should keep the spoiler infraction police around. However, I have a few suggestions for spoilers. I believe that if there is something related to the ending of any Zelda game, it should be put in a spoiler tag. Even A Link to the Past, for example. Many Zelda fans haven't gotten a chance to play the game yet, but want to badly, and spoiling the ending would just ruin it. And take Link's Awakening for example, it has one of the most debatable endings. We wouldn't want our views on the end spoiled by someone else.
However, for Skyward Sword, everything should be put in spoiler tags, for at least a year. After a year, we can change it to putting the ending in spoiler tags only, and the rest of the game can be treated as normal. To OoT 3D, it will have the same infrastructure as OoT, so I believe that the ending only needs to be hid, the rest of the game does not due to the fact that is is just a remake.
I am proponent of keeping spoilers and the infraction around; however, I would almost never use the actual infraction, merely warnings. The only instance where I would see that giving out the actual infraction would be necessary would be where someone was wantonly throwing out game-ruining spoilers with no disregard for others.
My policy for spoilers concerns elements of ANY game being conveyed without any warning beforehand, to any elements that are relevant to plot, or beating a dungeon or boss, that are not conveyed within the first few hours of gameplay or are not eluded to in the manual.
I treat a spoiler tag to a thread as the strongest warning of spoilers, and intervention is rarely necessary; however, I see a thread labeled "Spoiler" as only warning of spoilers that will be inherently discussed within the thread's topic. I was just dealing with a thread a while ago about the Dark Interlopers; putting a spoiler tag on this would allow spoilers regarding the Dark Interlopers and "dark" tribes from games to be discussed freely without extra warning, namely elements surrounding the origins of Majora's Mask in MM and almost any and all of Twilight Princess. Things that are proceeding to leave the "covered" spoiler area may warrant a new spoiler tag; say a user a wanted to link the Sheikah to the Dark Interlopers. If the Sheikah were addressed in the thread's first post, then a new spoiler tag is not necessary. This is the crucial element of my policy: Once a spoiler surrounding a particular topic in a particular game has been discussed once, all following posts that are inherently linked to that topic do not require a spoiler tag for the remainder of the thread.
However, if someone is drawing information outside the game in question that contains spoilers to prove a point about another game (a common event in timeline discussion), a new spoiler tag or warning in the new post is warranted, but afterward, that topic follows the above rule.
Say someone was trying to make a connection between OoX and LA in a thread that was originally about an ALttP/LA connection; if someone referenced the end of one of those games to explain its connection to another (probably OoX, in this example), the user would need to warn for OoX spoilers. Again, further OoX spoiler tags would not be necessary.
If a new spoiler topic is being brought up in a thread, this is the kind of format I would like to see:
"Spoiler: OoX Ending" or "Spoiler: Linked OoX Ending"
In the case of my first example, I would expect something like this:
"Spoiler: OoT Sheikah"
Note the distinction between the topic and the game in the spoiler tag; if a topic spans more than one game, the game(s) it is/are specific to should be included in the spoiler warning/tag.
I see a spoiler tag as only "covering" a certain amount of ground, that is to say, saying "spoiler" does not give you the right to discuss all spoilers in any game immediately. You're only safe from getting an infraction if the spoilers you are referring to are included in the spoiler warning (as shown above); in the case of a thread, the thread saying "SPOILER" in front of its name only allows it to freely discuss all topics that are inherently linked to what is covered in the thread's title.
A few other things to note about spoilers; if a thread's topic is discussing something that happened late in the game, if all spoilers that belong to the main quest line in that game that occur before the event in the game that pertains to the initial topic being discussed, it is assumed that all preceding elements of the story's main quest line are already known, and therefore do not require a spoiler tag.
I'll give an example:
TP Main Quest Spoilers
If I were to mention that Yeta turns on you to defend her Mirror of Twilight fragment, it would not be necessary to provide spoiler warning for the fact that the attempted execution of Ganondorf is eluded to after completing Arbiter’s Grounds.
Spoilers End Here
Now, in general, I am a bit of a stickler when it comes to spoilers, particularly about older games, which is the opposite of the norm. My reasoning for this is that there are a large number of younger users on the forums, who may have not had a chance to play the older games because they were before they got into Zelda, or they came out when they were very young. Although there have been efforts to make these games as accessible as possible, there are still a fair number of forum users who haven’t played some of the older games, especially the hand-held ones.
I think it’s a fair policy to be less lenient around spoilers for games that generally been played by fewer members of the forums. Although it doesn’t alter the actual infraction received, I think we can sort the size of the problem regarding spoilers of a particular game with the amount of people that have played them and the amount of spoilers therein. This is how I would organize them:
Top Tier (highest issue):
LA, OoX, newly released games (within 2 years of release)
Tier 3:
TMC, OoT
TMC because it isn’t often played, and OoT merely for the amount of spoilers in the game and the impact of those spoilers, rather than the proportionally large amount of people that have played it.
Tier 2:
MM, TWW, ALttP
Tier 1 (bottom tier):
PH, ST, TP
LoZ and AoL are exempt from spoiler rules as they largely have no plot details outside of the manual.
These are subject to change with the release of the 3DS Virtual Console, and other ports. (Note that there is no actual increase in punishment going up a tier, but merely the likelihood that a message or warning will be sent)
I find it best that we try to prevent spoilers as best we can; with proper rules that are clearly established, it shouldn’t be difficult at all for anyone to post without worrying about spoilers. It just takes a few extra seconds and a little bit of judgment.
