Member Treatment - Are we being fair to the members of the community?

[DARK MASTER]

this is what everyone said when kit and i first got in. then within 6 months it's "worse staff ever!!!". revisionist history will do this to you. its like the opposite of the zelda cycle.

Though to be fair, our current staff has been around for a while, at this point and we're all pretty unanimous in our appreciation for them. So unless they dramatically change I doubt anybody will really change their opinion.

 

[Emma]

The staff here are pretty good. Mostly they do a good job. Apart from a few troll topics the staff here refuse to delete (I do not know why the staff refuse to delete them). Also I can say mostly the staff here have listened to me and acted appropriately when I have told them they needed to act (above mentioned few troll topics excepted).

I think if you want a perfect forum, you're dreaming. Such a thing does not exist. True freedom of speech exists on no forum anywhere. All forums have some degree on unjust censorship. It's just part of all every forum unfortunately. So the best you can do is choose a forum that does not have too much staff imposed censorship and enjoy your time there. If the staff ever start running the forum like they are the ruthless dictator of forumland, then you can always leave the forum and find another forum with less corrupt, nasty and arrogant staff. I am not saying the ZD staff are like this, I am just talking in general. If a nice forum turns sour, you can always leave it for a better one.

It's all about finding a delicate balance and recognizing that finding that balance is never going to be easy. That's why it's so critically important to completely tolerate questioning staff decisions regardless of how confident that staff is that they were justified. Pooling together as many opinions as possible can help getting a better perspective. Not to say that numbers make an idea more right. But it does give you an idea of what everyone is thinking. And in some cases biases are obvious. And learning about those can give perspective. Think about it like trying to decide if a movie is worth seeing when you know nothing about it and all you have to go on is movie reviews. Is reading just one review going to be of any help? No, you have to read many of them, including the extremely positive, the middle of the road, and the very negative. Then you get a better perspective. Exaggerations become apparent and you have a better idea of getting a somewhat reasonable idea of what to actually expect.

Just don't get all sentimental over post counts or post histories. They are meaningless in the long run. The only important things are the fun you have chatting with everyone, the things you learn there and the friends you make on the forums. All those things you can keep if you move to a new forum because your current one as turned sour.

We should try, but it's not absolutely critical. Personally I only care about my posts that are made within a few months of any given moment. Older than, only about particularly important topics. The vast majority are trivialites. Many of which most of us are going to forget ever happened, and therefore they come up again next time that topic is discussed. What's more important is that we make sure we have the framework and structure. And, above all, an end to thinking that anyone who disagrees is the enemy. This includes staff targeting people who just don't agree, non-staff going after the staff, vendettas being played out. Casually insulting someone, falsely acting vague about who is being discussed when you're giving enough personal identifying details that it's impossible not to know who is being ridiculed. Not every criticism is an insult. You can not agree with what someone is doing without it automatically being an attack. But you should never say something bad about someone that you're not willing to tell them directly. Honesty at least helps clear the air. Secrets, secrets just fester people's assumptions and inflame problems that don't need to continue. If people can be honest about why they don't agree instead of trying to villanize each other, they at least can reach an understanding of why everyone feels the way they feel so the discussion can move forward in a more postive light. By assuming people you simply do not like are evil, and treating them as such, you provoke conflict and encourage the very thing you think you're stopping. A self fulfilling prophecy.

"I have never, ever, ever, done anything wrong. Ever." - Matt

Very odd that you're saying that while quoting me apologizing for doing something wrong.

 

[DARK MASTER]

n my time as a member through present day, the basic rules never changed yet the policies of how they were enforced varied based on who was leading the mod team. The lack of consistent policies has led to slow mod responses to all but the most common instances.
And when the mods did act on some of the more uncommon occurrences, the response was extreme because that was all they could do by that point. This recent incident is evidence of that. We likely could have saved that thread if we knew what to do about what was happening and had acted. We lost a good thread because we weren't decisive about what to do about the issue.

I'm one of the newest mods, added at the end of October. One thing that frustrated me was the lack of any guides on how to be a mod other than an out-dated guide written at the beginning of the forum. There were really no other written policies aside from mod experience to go off of. It's my fault that I didn't ask more questions, and I think the general peacefulness of the forums hid the fact that I really needed to.
Instead of asking I decided to try to watch to see how other mods handle things, and I largely saw a seeming inactivity. Sometimes things wouldn't have anything done about them until a couple days after the fact, or the issue would be dropped if a week passed and no other problems sprung up.

This isn't to discredit that we aren't the best team this forum has had in a long time, but I want to show that we still have a lot of room for growth. I hope that we can grow into a team that can better and more appropriately serve this community by discussing and developing the methods we will use going forward.

Listen Night Owl, nobody is perfect. I know in the communities I've moderated and still moderate in, nobody is perfect, but we can all work to improve. I appreciate you having the right mindset. This mindset should be encouraged. Also after working with Vanessa for a while, I can recommend if you need any moderator advice she's a great source.

We're all a bunch of dumb primates, but working to improve we can overcome some of our problems.

 

[Guest_1]

Sure is funny how dichotomies work. Yes, this is pretty much the most beneficial time to discuss what should happen [in the future], while it is also the least beneficial time to discuss what is happening [the lack of violations]. Albeit different, that contrast can go hand in hand. As you say, now is the opportune time to deal with situations from going awry. For starters, I'd put forward the importance of getting announcements out in a timely fashion. It was one of the key points that I focused on whenever I was still involved with staff work a little more than a year ago; part of my job as a Coordinator. But since then, sharing updates has apparently become more central among the staff, even the mods are involved in it. As opposed to the lateness of the Xenforo switch, the ZD/ZI merger was disclosed before a set date was even given. I'd just like to see that this promptness is maintained.

Agreed, but perhaps that line of conversation could be saved for a different thread. This is about the staff not being consistent in how they handle members, especially with their treatment of members who are also staff.

The staff here are pretty good. Mostly they do a good job. Apart from a few troll topics the staff here refuse to delete (I do not know why the staff refuse to delete them). Also I can say mostly the staff here have listened to me and acted appropriately when I have told them they needed to act (above mentioned few troll topics excepted).

I think if you want a perfect forum, you're dreaming. Such a thing does not exist. True freedom of speech exists on no forum anywhere. All forums have some degree on unjust censorship. It's just part of all every forum unfortunately. So the best you can do is choose a forum that does not have too much staff imposed censorship and enjoy your time there. If the staff ever start running the forum like they are the ruthless dictator of forumland, then you can always leave the forum and find another forum with less corrupt, nasty and arrogant staff. I am not saying the ZD staff are like this, I am just talking in general. If a nice forum turns sour, you can always leave it for a better one.

Just don't get all sentimental over post counts or post histories. They are meaningless in the long run. The only important things are the fun you have chatting with everyone, the things you learn there and the friends you make on the forums. All those things you can keep if you move to a new forum because your current one as turned sour.

I completely agree with you. There is no such thing as a perfect forum. Does that mean we shouldn't strive to be better? No, there is always room for improvement. Just saying "don't like it, leave" isn't a very good mindset to have. Now, if the staff isn't responsive or isn't consistent in their response, that's a problem. Nobody is asking for perfection. We just want everybody to be doled out the same treatment other members get when they break a rule, regardless of how much power they have on different parts of the site.

In my time as a member through present day, the basic rules never changed yet the policies of how they were enforced varied based on who was leading the mod team. The lack of consistent policies has led to slow mod responses to all but the most common instances.
And when the mods did act on some of the more uncommon occurrences, the response was extreme because that was all they could do by that point. This recent incident is evidence of that. We likely could have saved that thread if we knew what to do about what was happening and had acted. We lost a good thread because we weren't decisive about what to do about the issue.

I'm one of the newest mods, added at the end of October. One thing that frustrated me was the lack of any guides on how to be a mod other than an out-dated guide written at the beginning of the forum. There were really no other written policies aside from mod experience to go off of. It's my fault that I didn't ask more questions, and I think the general peacefulness of the forums hid the fact that I really needed to.
Instead of asking I decided to try to watch to see how other mods handle things, and I largely saw a seeming inactivity. Sometimes things wouldn't have anything done about them until a couple days after the fact, or the issue would be dropped if a week passed and no other problems sprung up.

This isn't to discredit that we aren't the best team this forum has had in a long time, but I want to show that we still have a lot of room for growth. I hope that we can grow into a team that can better and more appropriately serve this community by discussing and developing the methods we will use going forward.

Exactly. Night Owl, I just want you to know that's a great mindset to have. It's okay to make mistakes. It's okay to screw up. I think there is also some misconception that the staff must be placed on this pedestal and can do no wrong. That's not how I wanted to go about this. I don't think the staff is being fair with how we handle certain members who have staff positions. If a new member severely derailed a thread with bickering and arguing, that person would at least get a warning at best and maybe a couple point infraction at worst.

Being the fun police is hard, I know, but somebody has to do it. 8)

Not sure if you're joking around or not but I'll bite.
This thread was created originally for the present purpose of discussing the recent thread derailment in one of the threads relating to the merge. We obviously need to discuss how derailment should be handled in future as it's quite obvious this has been a reoccurring problem in both the past and present.
While me and you feel there's been very few violations at present, others may feel different so it's important we hear everyone's opinion.

This.

That said, while nobody likes bringing up the past, I have seen a history of this sort of thing happening, especially when it involves certain members. Really, I would just like everybody to be treated fairly. If a staff member screws up or takes their anger/emotional issues out on someone, well, I'm sorry they feel that way, but rules are rules. No hard feelings, but locking a thread punishes the OP and not the ones who derailed the thread in the first place.

While I'm on that subject, guys, let's not do the exact thing that started this thread in the first place. This goes for everybody. It once again sets a bad precedence, and if we are to move forward, everybody, including staff members participating in this thread, need to abide by the rules. Don't make me call the fun police! :B

theres two types of special treatment, from my experience as staff:
1. people we couldn't punish, for a number of reasons
2. people we didn't want to punish, because they were our friends
i can guarantee every staff member has fallen into either of these two traps. the former of which bothers me much more than the latter, because diplomatic immunity is a horrible, horrible thing. the latter one isn't a conscious decision, it's a bias people hold without meaning to.

i don't like speaking for people, but i'm sure djinn would agree with me that there have been a number of users that straight up seem to be unpunishable

That is exactly what we're here to put a stop to. With the latter, if you feel that you can't punish someone because they are your friend, perhaps it would be best to hand the situation over to somebody else? We all have biases, it's part of being human, but that's not something that should stop you from doing your job. It's the "diplomatic immunity" that I feel needs to be addressed.

Thanks for responding, everybody.

 

[Ronin]

Not sure if you're joking around or not but I'll bite.
This thread was created originally for the present purpose of discussing the recent thread derailment in one of the threads relating to the merge. We obviously need to discuss how derailment should be handled in future as it's quite obvious this has been a reoccurring problem in both the past and present.
While me and you feel there's been very few violations at present, others may feel different so it's important we hear everyone's opinion.

Wasn't joking or looking for a bite. I was using "less beneficial" in a positive light to say that ZD is as good as it's been in a long time. Mere rhetoric; feel free to overlook it.

Discussing derailment isn't the entire point of this thread, but yes it certainly should be highlighted. Usually a mod would step in, insert a reminder to stay on topic, and then expect things to go back to normal. If it didn't, then they might close the thread for a cooldown period or take it to PM or whatever. For some reason, that stopped happening a number of months ago. Maybe it's because of backlashophobia, maybe not. Either way, I'm glad you brought it up; it's another thing that should be enforced to prevent threads from going on a tangent.

Of course, I wouldn't have it any other way. The more, the merrier. =]

 

[Djinn]

Hah yea, I wasn't added to the mod chat for almost two weeks after I was promoted. Before that I was asking Destiny or Nicole what to do anytime I saw something on the forum. Generally the reasoning behind the chat was to have a spot to ask for what might be the official policy for dealing with X. But that fell by the wayside at some point. Something I never really liked much.

But typically every incarnation of staff will be considered the worse staff ever in time. They are the ones who tell you to stop having fun, on this recreational forum you chose to come to on your own for...fun. You stick around long enough and they will makes the rounds to a goodly number of people until a lot have some kind of grievance with them. It's just the nature of the beast when dealing with online social communities. More like a necessary evil since having some guy who combs over the place to see if you might have snuk some trolly comment into a paragraph about Mario Kart is a lesser evil than hordes of idiots that never stop making fun of you, or post dozens of porn pics in a conversation, spam your wall, or blast a thousand animated gifs in a post until everything dies a hideous painful technicolor nightmare death.

Forum staffery is janitorial duty at most, you follow behind people and clean up what they crapped out in the corner of a thread and put some newspaper down because some new people just joined and you know they are not house trained yet. The best we can do and hope for is to continue being fair despite being human and making mistakes and try to not overpunish someone or allow the same antics to occur from another and let them do as the please every day. I have seen the opposite happen in the past with staff members going far overboard in disciplining people they did not personally care for while slapping their friends on the wrist. I spoke up against that very often. I find that to be a little more egregious.

 

[the8thark]

theres two types of special treatment, from my experience as staff:
1. people we couldn't punish, for a number of reasons
2. people we didn't want to punish, because they were our friends
i can guarantee every staff member has fallen into either of these two traps. the former of which bothers me much more than the latter, because diplomatic immunity is a horrible, horrible thing. the latter one isn't a conscious decision, it's a bias people hold without meaning to.

i don't like speaking for people, but i'm sure djinn would agree with me that there have been a number of users that straight up seem to be unpunishable

1. That's really bad I agree. Basically using their staff status on the forum to say they have as you very eloquently put it, diplomatic immunity. Staff should be held accountable to the same rules we all are.

2. I find number 2 to be equally as disturbing. Let put it this way.
Say your friend is your work employer. The right thing to say is "your my boss at work but my friend at home, I expect you to treat me like that at the appropriate times"
When people refuse to do this and cant or refuse to differentiate between staff/member and friend/friend, we have serious issues on the forum. The staff should treat everyone equally, not give their friends spoecial concessions. If someone breaks the rules on the forum, they are a rule breaking member in this instance, not your friend. They are your friend at other times. Staff need to know when to wear the staff member hat and when to wear the friend hat. If a staff member can't or refuses to do this, then they are not capable of doing the job of staff person properly and should not be in that position.

 

[Vanessa28]

this is what everyone said when kit and i first got in. then within 6 months it's "worse staff ever!!!". revisionist history will do this to you. its like the opposite of the zelda cycle.

You know as well as I do that this is not true (worst staff ever). I have to give it both you and Kit; you two brought talking and discussing things back in modchat. Something that didn't happen for a very long time. You also brought issues up whenever they appeared or when members brought it up. I had the same happen to me. Some people I used to be friends with suddenly called me corrupt and horrible (Atsuma) after I warned them when they refused to listen after being warned by other mods several times.

There were times we were called too strict and also called too laidback. I think at the moment things are running fine. It will never be perfect. It never was and never will be because perfect moderated forums don't exist. Every person has flaws. But what I learn is to always listen to the members. Don't write them off as simply troublemakers. Because too often these troublemakers have proven us often they were right after all. Never underestimate the members.

 

[Jamie]

For the record right now, I do recognize I got... angry you might say. For that part I do apologize. I was letting some part of my past influence me. But not what people think. I wasn't holding on to past grudges. I was willing to give Nathan the benefit of the doubt, and my assumptions about ZI was simply because I didn't know better, after Nathan gave us a very comprehensive explanation I let that matter slide. The issues of the past I was holding onto were...... of a personal nature that have nothing to do with what has happened here. Very painful things that happened to me five years ago which ZD helped me recover from. The action of moving the forums and undermining the future of the wiki had taken away the safeguard I had, they had helped heal those wounds and having them ripped away from be with being told that my own fate was none of my own business brought back those events to me. I assure you, these things have nothing to do with anyone here at all. They happened in my personal life with people I was personally involved in. Things in my private life dealing with loved ones that ended in disaster.

For that part I apologize for letting my reopening wounds make me more angry than is productive.But I want people to understand why it's important to me and why I got upset. I assure you that I am 100% willing to let all of the past problems with everyone here on both sites go away, my issue that's upsetting me so much is these very, very personal wounds (that honestly pushed me to seriously consider suicide) that ZD was instrumental in helping me with, very literally saving my life. So maybe now you can understand how I feel when I'm represented as the villian when I'm not doing anything wrong, why I'm bothered when people can't let go of past preconceptions. Whatever derailment happened on my part was never a malicious act. I believed those things were relevant. If people disagreed, they should have ASKED how it was relevant instead of assuming it was malicious and seeking the nuclear option. Then if we still didn't agree it had relevance, then the topic could have moved forward then with something people could agree was a more pressing issue.

I appreciate this, and so I'm sorry for my response to your original post as well.

 

[Guest_1]

Wasn't joking or looking for a bite. I was using "less beneficial" in a positive light to say that ZD is as good as it's been in a long time. Mere rhetoric; feel free to overlook it.

Discussing derailment isn't the entire point of this thread, but yes it certainly should be highlighted. Usually a mod would step in, insert a reminder to stay on topic, and then expect things to go back to normal. If it didn't, then they might close the thread for a cooldown period or take it to PM or whatever. For some reason, that stopped happening a number of months ago. Maybe it's because of backlashophobia, maybe not. Either way, I'm glad you brought it up; it's another thing that should be enforced to prevent threads from going on a tangent.

Of course, I wouldn't have it any other way. The more, the merrier. =]

That is something that really should have happened in that thread in particular. I know what's done is done at that point, but the issue here does go a bit beyond that, I will admit. It gets very tiring for everyone involved, both members and staff, to see the same exact people derailing threads time and again and not having anything done about it—or worse, try to do something about it, only to have some higher up undo what they've tried to do because of some fear of backlash. That shouldn't be a factor in how you deal with members. No one is going to like everything you do, that's just a fact of life when you're a moderator.

Hah yea, I wasn't added to the mod chat for almost two weeks after I was promoted. Before that I was asking Destiny or Nicole what to do anytime I saw something on the forum. Generally the reasoning behind the chat was to have a spot to ask for what might be the official policy for dealing with X. But that fell by the wayside at some point. Something I never really liked much.

But typically every incarnation of staff will be considered the worse staff ever in time. They are the ones who tell you to stop having fun, on this recreational forum you chose to come to on your own for...fun. You stick around long enough and they will makes the rounds to a goodly number of people until a lot have some kind of grievance with them. It's just the nature of the beast when dealing with online social communities. More like a necessary evil since having some guy who combs over the place to see if you might have snuk some trolly comment into a paragraph about Mario Kart is a lesser evil than hordes of idiots that never stop making fun of you, or post dozens of porn pics in a conversation, spam your wall, or blast a thousand animated gifs in a post until everything dies a hideous painful technicolor nightmare death.

Forum staffery is janitorial duty at most, you follow behind people and clean up what they crapped out in the corner of a thread and put some newspaper down because some new people just joined and you know they are not house trained yet. The best we can do and hope for is to continue being fair despite being human and making mistakes and try to not overpunish someone or allow the same antics to occur from another and let them do as the please every day. I have seen the opposite happen in the past with staff members going far overboard in disciplining people they did not personally care for while slapping their friends on the wrist. I spoke up against that very often. I find that to be a little more egregious.

Moderating isn't a fun job, but someone does have to do it. I appreciate what you do around here, and I hope that this conversation we're having in this thread paves the way for positive change that desperately needs to happen in this community. The "I'll complain to Mases if you do anything because I'm staff" thing really has to stop, either way. It makes it so you guys can't do your job, and it hurts the community and causes even more a rift to build between the members and the staff.

Nobody should get special treatment, why should any of the staff?

1. That's really bad I agree. Basically using their staff status on the forum to say they have as you very eloquently put it, diplomatic immunity. Staff should be held accountable to the same rules we all are.

2. I find number 2 to be equally as disturbing. Let put it this way.
Say your friend is your work employer. The right thing to say is "your my boss at work but my friend at home, I expect you to treat me like that at the appropriate times"
When people refuse to do this and cant or refuse to differentiate between staff/member and friend/friend, we have serious issues on the forum. The staff should treat everyone equally, not give their friends spoecial concessions. If someone breaks the rules on the forum, they are a rule breaking member in this instance, not your friend. They are your friend at other times. Staff need to know when to wear the staff member hat and when to wear the friend hat. If a staff member can't or refuses to do this, then they are not capable of doing the job of staff person properly and should not be in that position.

Exactly. Neither of these things should be happening, but the former definitely is. I don't think the latter is ever going to go away no matter how many times the staff changes hands. Does that mean that the staff shouldn't try to limit bias as much as possible? Sure. In fact, I think that if this site ever does adopt a code of conduct, that something regarding that should be mentioned. It's cool you don't want to punish your friend, so why not just hand it off to someone who doesn't have the emotional attachment to the issue? That would be the best solution.

There were times we were called too strict and also called too laidback. I think at the moment things are running fine. It will never be perfect. It never was and never will be because perfect moderated forums don't exist. Every person has flaws. But what I learn is to always listen to the members. Don't write them off as simply troublemakers. Because too often these troublemakers have proven us often they were right after all. Never underestimate the members.

That's going to happen, unfortunately. Trying to please everyone ultimately pleases no one. In a community like ours, no one is ever going to be completely happy with decisions that are made. That said, we still need to be fair, and give everybody the same treatment we should be giving everybody else. Not punishing someone because of their staff position or because they're friends with Mases or something isn't conducive to a good community. No one is asking for perfection. I just want the diplomatic immunity issue to become less of an issue, or preferably, become a non-issue altogether.

Thanks again, guys!

 

[Jirohnagi]

@Jamie actually next to the current lot (who were spawned from your lot) your admin/mod/cc team was excellent, hell i'm not fond of Kitsu much (he kinda went overboard at the end truth be told) but you all did well, unfortunately things cropped up that broke your team apart, which makes me sad i think between you and Jimmy things coulda been greater than they are now ^^.

But aside from that my only issue is when people derail a thread to make it about themselves. Kinda annoying when this happens (i speak from both sides here) And yeah i got an infraction for it both times i did Derail seriously, but in all honesty i think Infractions do jack squat these days. I think if you derail a thread so badly it warrants a locking then the people or individual should get a 24hr ban no if ands or butts.

 

[Guest_1]

But aside from that my only issue is when people derail a thread to make it about themselves. Kinda annoying when this happens (i speak from both sides here) And yeah i got an infraction for it both times i did Derail seriously, but in all honesty i think Infractions do jack squat these days. I think if you derail a thread so badly it warrants a locking then the people or individual should get a 24hr ban no if ands or butts.

I think that the rules need to be re-evaluated, for one. I get this impression that not all of the moderators on the site are on the same page. I also think a code of conduct of some kind should be put in place so that anybody who is a member, regardless of staff position or standing within the site, are held accountable for their actions. It's nice when we're given apologies when someone, staff or not, breaks the rules, but when a member has a history of doing such things but has a staff banner is allowed to continually break the rules and spread a toxic environment to the community without lasting consequences, that cannot be allowed to stand, personal issues or not.

This does not necessarily have to be about thread derailment; that's just the most recent example of this differential treatment happening. It isn't the fault of the moderator team at all—hard to be mad at them when Mases has personally said certain people on this forum are not to be reprimanded for their actions in any way.

That said, if any of the staff would like to discuss this further in private, feel free to Skype me.

 

[Emma]

I think that the rules need to be re-evaluated, for one. I get this impression that not all of the moderators on the site are on the same page. I also think a code of conduct of some kind should be put in place so that anybody who is a member, regardless of staff position or standing within the site, are held accountable for their actions. It's nice when we're given apologies when someone, staff or not, breaks the rules, but when a member has a history of doing such things but has a staff banner is allowed to continually break the rules and spread a toxic environment to the community without lasting consequences, that cannot be allowed to stand, personal issues or not.

This does not necessarily have to be about thread derailment; that's just the most recent example of this differential treatment happening. It isn't the fault of the moderator team at all—hard to be mad at them when Mases has personally said certain people on this forum are not to be reprimanded for their actions in any way.

That said, if any of the staff would like to discuss this further in private, feel free to Skype me.

I sort of wish you'd stop acting like you're being so cleverly subtle about who you're referring to, when you're obviously referring to me. Throughout your posts you've used far too many identifying details to be talking about anyone else. Instead of casually making little character assassinations like this why not be direct? I'm not a protected individual no matter how much you keep wishing that to be the case. I

don't get any special protection from Mases. He doesn't care about the forums, ask to ban anyone, anyone at all no matter how good or bad as reason there is for it, and he will refuse. No matter who. It's just how Mases rolls. People want to see there being special treatment from him when that's just not what's going on. He does thin out the herd in areas he does care about if he thinks there's a good reason. But the forums are just totally off his radar and issues on it mean absolutely nothing to him. He wouldn't go out of his way to protect anyone on it in particular beyond just refusing to get involved in issuing bans in general. I don't get protection. Not from Mases, Not from any of the staff.

I'm constantly treated more harshly than everyone else. I'm constantly accused of causing trouble when that's not what's happening. And when I do legitimately screw up, but so does someone else, I always get blamed and they don't. I'm constantly having threads I'm involved in locked, no matter how much or little I am actually involved in it, and then me getting a bulk of the blame after it. Everyone always assumes the worst in me no matter how passive I'm being. I can't escape this constant mistreatment and slander. In no way, shape, or form can this possibly be construed as special protection. They want to see me as this dangerous troublemaker because of how I am often end up being a contrarian. I often have positions on issues that are very different from what's commonly accepted. Many people have trouble tolerating that. Some seek to have that censored. Those who don't conform to established dogma regularly find themselves silenced with swift efficiency.

I have a quote about this.

"At any given moment there is an orthodoxy, a body of ideas which it is assumed that all right-thinking people will accept without question. It is not exactly forbidden to say this, that or the other, but it is 'not done' to say it, just as in mid-Victorian times it was 'not done' to mention trousers in the presence of a lady. Anyone who challenges the prevailing orthodoxy finds himself silenced with surprising effectiveness. A genuinely unfashionable opinion is almost never given a fair hearing, either in the popular press or in the highbrow periodicals." ― George Orwell

I always get the most outpouring of complaints against me whenever I'm holding an opinion that is contrary to what most others want to believe is true. A common socitial impulse is to try to silence those you don't agree with. I've warned every single incarnation of the staff of the danger of giving into demands like this. That you can't teach people like that to expect to get rewarded for complaining about feeling offended. That they'll seek to use it as a weapon to silence opposing points of view. Not a single one, not even this group, has ever heeded my warnings. And they've all believed the complaints about me every single time. Never stopping once to consider that maybe, JUST MAYBE, people were overreacting. And instead it gets encouraged. Every time.

This is not the mark of a protected individual. A protected individual would not get this undue scrutiny. A protected individual would not be constantly ordered into silence. The issue is that I haven't technically broken any rules and they know that. In most cases, my crime is being annoying to some people. Which is not, and never should, be against the rules and why the most it ever can warrant is thread locking.

These constant personal attacks are not helping anything. It's just going to be fanning the flames. The rules as they stand now are pretty good. We've refined them through trial and error. The problem is that time and again the staff usually makes one of two mistakes. One, they rush to a solution without fully considering the situation and what's really going on or what the consequences will be. And two they far too frequently are the most harsh with people who have been questioning the staff directly. If two parties are equally guilty in a given event, the one who has been challenging staff decisions the most is far more likely to get the harsher treatment. This even happens now. Though obviously not nearly as much as with previous staff members. I think it's absolutely crucial for the current staff to be aware of this natural tendency that comes with the position so they can be more careful about avoiding it.

And a larger problem both the staff and other members have is holding onto past, false preconceptions about people and treating them with hostility because of it, even though it's incredibly unfair to them and only provokes the very situation you assume is going to happen. But that doesn't make you right, it makes you part of the problem. Like I did with @Jamie. I assumed he was step in step with Kitsu and treated him as such. Therefore provoking him into angry outbursts that I assumed confirmed my suspicions. But in reality all that actually happened was I was treating him unfairly and he was reacting like any human being would to mistreatment. We do that way too damn much here. I've apologized to Jamie for that several times. I know first hand how it can happen and how badly it pervades this community.

We need to stop holding on to past grudges. Need to stop assuming the worst in each other. We need to stop holding onto bitterness that only furthers the problems. We need to give each other the benefit of the doubt and treat each other like fellow human beings for once. Instead of as all being potential criminals. We're all flawed in our own way, we all make mistakes, we all lose our cool sometimes, we all have wounds that bring us shame if they're exposed. We can't operate on this paranoia anymore. We can't function with this constant blame game and these damn witch hunts. Yes, I played my role in them. But I bludgeoned my way through them like an idiot, blamed far more people than were actually involved, and made the situation worse. Nothing teaches you how stupid something is better than making that dumb mistake yourself and making a fool of yourself in the process. It can't go on like this. We need to have more trust, love, and support in each other.

 

[Guest_1]

Alright, we've had a good discussion about this so far. That said, let's not make this thread into something it is not. This is an issue that goes back several years, and really, all everybody wants is fair treatment and fair application of the rules. This is about members who are staff on various parts of the site being allowed to break the rules without consequence for their actions. Staff members of all types should not be causing threads to derail. They should also not be inciting flame wars or harrassment of others because they don't share the same beliefs as you do. This goes for everybody, staff or not.

While this thread could in and of itself be regarded as a "punishment" for allowing or being involved in the recent thread derailment to occur, this is not about that either. The recent thread derailment is merely the most recent example of the diplomatic immunity being allowed to carry on when certain staff members participate in threads. If this community is to move forward, if the merger between our communities is to be a success, we need to iron this out now or risk repeating the very same mistakes that have plagued various other administrations in the past.

They say that those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it. That said, everyone involved in the thread derailment recently made a mistakes, including the staff that were involved. In the interest of fairness, it would not be fair to reprimand just Matt, or Jamie, or even Mases for what happened. Rather, if we are to be fair, all parties involved in the nastiness that went on in that thread should be held accountable, even if they are current or former staff. It would be easy to say this is an isolated incident, but it is not.

I know of many threads, that once certain staff members get involved, spiraled into a vicious cycle of bickering, fingerpointing, ad hominem attacks, strawmen, and other various argumentative fallacies. Why does this cycle have to continue? Why can't we just hold everyone responsible for what they say? We're no different from any other online community. We have rules that must be put in place to protect the members here. If we apply the rules only to some and not to others, that creates an imbalance that just begs to be abused, and for some, this abuse of the system has gone on long enough.

Let's keep up the good work to make this place better, for everyone involved.

 

[DARK MASTER]

Currently our community is the best it has been in years, but that doesn’t mean we simply stop pushing forward.

To be clear, this thread should be primarily about discussing staff unfairly protecting other staff as a potential problem, rather than singling now a member, regardless of their mistakes. I wish this conversation well.