Member Treatment - Are we being fair to the members of the community?

[Guest_1]

Okay, now that I'm back home from work, I can properly address some of you. Thank you guys very much for the great responses.

I do feel like some staff members past and present should be gagged. Especially when in reality they have no affiliation with the forums bar harping on about random topics but aside from a few really bad cases the site staff have been solid, they give everyone a fair chance and when it comes to people (such as me flaming) they get shut down fast and hard. But yes i do agree with your last point there Selenus, if you derail a thread to such a point where it just becomes accusations then what's the point of you being there? Messages like that need to be removed quickly or at least the troublemaker gagged for some peace of mind.

Exactly. What makes me the most upset about situations like this is when someone who has connections to someone higher up in power blatantly breaks the rules or derails the thread, but nothing is done because every time the staff tries to act, their actions are protected by someone else in power. Again, I have to ask the question- how do you guys expect to trust the staff or the site own when stuff like that is allowed to go on?

I completely agree with you on all points, Shironagi.

Gotta agree with this, been here 6 years on and off, i missed some abusive admins but i do think this group of mods/admins/ccs are the most friendliest we've had in a LOOOOOOOONG time

The current batch of staff is by and large the least abusive bunch I've seen since I joined here.

I agree with you guys. The staff we have right now is some of the best staff this place has had in a long time. I personally like Djinn and Vanessa. I do admit, I don't know Jimmy that well, but from the short interactions I've had with him on Skype, he seems like a nice, capable fellow. That said, this isn't a knock on the staff. This is about a problem that hinders both the staff and the community, and it needs to be addressed.

I see what you're saying and agree. That's actually one issue I've always had with thread derailment. The original poster in reality is the one that receives the punishment by having their thread locked, when it would make more sense for a mod to remove only the off topic posts and issue a warning to the offenders. I guess warning the owner of the site seems a little daunting and pointless to some.

From what I understand, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I recall a couple of individuals having a conversation with Mases and a few of the other perpetrators in that instance. It does not help that there has been a history of this happening, especially when individuals get a little too worked up. What happened in that thread should not have been allowed to happen, and especially for some of the others, warnings and infractions should have followed. I see no point in locking a thread and letting a few rotten apples spoil the thread for everybody else.

I think the forum staff has learned from last year how to deal with problematic members among the staff. We now have a new proactive administrator in Jimmy, an administrator who frequently fishes for new forum add-ons in Djinn, and the longest serving moderator in Zelda Dungeon forum history in Vanessa. That's not to mention all the other mods and Community Coordinators who do a good job of enforcing the rules, banning bots, and creating fun new events for the community to participate in. If there's any problematic behavior, I think a simple report should suffice in keeping the problem under control. While I'm wary of the upcoming merger with ZI, as Dan also alluded to, their current forum administrator has shown a willingness to work with our community to make things easier for everyone.

I don't think you're being completely honest. There are certain individuals who are under Mases' protection, and are therefore allowed to break the rules and get away with it. That isn't fair to the community or anyone else here.

THIS.
Nobody is above any member. This is why I always participated in Forum games even after I became a mod. I was told not interact with the members like that so often but I'm glad I never listened. I always loved to have fun and not be serious all the time and why would this change by being a mod? Sure, we have responsibilities but it shouldn't take away the fun with other members. We all started as members. The love for games (in this case Zelda) brought us here. Never ever should any staff member behave like they're special and need special treatment. If a mod/admin/wiki admin/CC or whatever -more is misbehaving, he or she should be called out for this. No exceptions.

Its good you didn't listen. Unfortunately some people who were good members here and made the forums a better place with their posts reduced this activity once being promoted.

And this is why you're awesome, Vanessa. Please keep doing what you do. This is not a knock on you or anyone else in staff at all. I know how hard your job is, and I thank you for trying to step in when you are able.

I have noticed one member in who has never been reprimanded for his actions in particular, because Mases likes the work he does on something totally unrelated to the forums. This person was causing many problems during the great "ZD Civil War" in October (there were problems from both sides, but this member was the main cause of every thing that happened then). Just recently, in the Forum Change Concerns Thread, this member started causing even more problems and got called out many times, within that thread and in the SB. He was caught lying in that thread, to Mases himself, and nothing's ever been done about him. He's caused many problems and is the reason I got myself banned so I could leave back in October.

I'm not naming names, but everybody knows who I'm talking about. For the most part, the rules are enforced, but this one person seems to get away with everything just because Mases likes the work he does on the wiki. In fact, Mases himself even said that. I hate saying this about people, but honestly, the forums would be a better place without this person.

If this member knows who he/she is and would like to talk about it, please do so in private so as not to cause more problems within this thread. I know you're dying to, but try to resist.

Exactly. Thank you for mentioning this.

 

[Emma]

I have noticed one member in who has never been reprimanded for his actions in particular, because Mases likes the work he does on something totally unrelated to the forums. This person was causing many problems during the great "ZD Civil War" in October (there were problems from both sides, but this member was the main cause of every thing that happened then). Just recently, in the Forum Change Concerns Thread, this member started causing even more problems and got called out many times, within that thread and in the SB. He was caught lying in that thread, to Mases himself, and nothing's ever been done about him. He's caused many problems and is the reason I got myself banned so I could leave back in October.

I'm not naming names, but everybody knows who I'm talking about. For the most part, the rules are enforced, but this one person seems to get away with everything just because Mases likes the work he does on the wiki. In fact, Mases himself even said that. I hate saying this about people, but honestly, the forums would be a better place without this person.

If this member knows who he/she is and would like to talk about it, please do so in private so as not to cause more problems within this thread. I know you're dying to, but try to resist.

Sort of going on what Nathan said, why should the past matter so much? This is entirely based on false propaganda from the past. Daring to question the staff gets you labeled a troublemaker. People try damn hard to spread that reputation. And then those who have had it happened to them are branded that way no matter how reasonable they are. Misremember a detail? Get called a malicious liar. Disagree with a decision? Get called a troublemaker. Often I'm accused of the very thing I'm complaining about. Even though it's very much not the case. I explicitly get targeted and threatened by the staff all the time. Any illusions that I'm some protected person above the rules is simply not true. I'm deliberately kept out of certain loops, certain discussions, my actions get closely scrutinized, I always get threads I'm involved in locked more quickly and more easily than anyone else's and singled out in its closing statement regardless of whether I'm the most outspoken one there or if I only ever made a single, soft spoken, post in it. I'm the favored pincushion of the staff. Always blamed for anything that goes wrong, always marginalized for it. This fantasy that I'm some protected individual couldn't possibly be further from the truth. The very intense disagreement I had with Mases and how quickly he not only ignored all I said, but slandered me with what he said, should clue you into how he does not give me any special protection. No more so than he'd give anyone else.

This kind of stuff doesn't help. Look at Nathan and me. To say we have a volatile history with each other is probably the biggest understatement anyone here's ever heard. But how exactly is that supposed to help anyone? We've tried to move forward with our lives. How exactly is hanging on past conceptions of people (real or imagined) supposed to help anything? How is looking people in such a negative light, talking about them like this supposed to help?

I've been singled out as a problem far too much because I simply chose to not agree with staff. We need to end this mentality that staff decisions are holy doctrine written in stone that are beyond contest. We have to stop holding onto past grudges. We have to stop fanning the flames.

 

[Emma]

I'm a little confused by that. What's your problem with Zelda Wiki then?

Right now? Disapproval of the organizational structure of their staff, their elimination of patrollers, and their current policies.

 

[Ronin]

This is practically the least beneficial time to post this kind of thread, and that's saying a lot.

Reason is, the staff have just about nothing to do. There's no constant bickering (one thread aside), no tangible lack of posting quality, and little to no Skype-oriented spam (i.e. spammotes). Heck, the biggest problem overall might just be all of those bots that come flooding in late at night. Other than that, the staff have their hands full with a different breed of trouble: stagnancy.

That's why they've been implementing a series of changes recently. The readdition of the market, a revamped monetary set-up, and status updates are among a few things to come. And of course the future merge has been a heated source of debate, but really it's just another thing that will come and go. People would eventually grow tired of visiting here if innovations weren't constantly being made.

 

[DARK MASTER]

I've been singled out as a problem far too much because I simply chose to not agree with staff. We need to end this mentality that staff decisions are holy doctrine written in stone that are beyond contest. We have to stop holding onto past grudges. We have to stop fanning the flames.

I'm not sure anybody really minds people's disagreement, rather bringing up old drama that may or may not be true for no reason and derailing threads. Selenus and Dan may have a point, that locking a thread for derailment primarily hurts the original poster (perhaps those who derailed the thread should be punished, not the thread-maker).

Obviously we've been friends for a long ass time Matt, but my friendships don't impede me from calling out dumb **** you sometimes do, and when you or anybody does that they shouldn't be above the rules. Like Vee and Nate said, nobody should.

Let's all improve and be smarter together.

 

[Nathanial Rumphol-Janc]

I'm not sure anybody really minds people's disagreement, rather bringing up old drama that may or may not be true for no reason and derailing threads. Selenus and Dan may have a point, that locking a thread for derailment primarily hurts the original poster (perhaps those who derailed the thread should be punished, not the thread-maker).

Obviously we've been friends for a long ass time Matt, but my friendships don't impede me from calling out dumb **** you sometimes do, and when you or anybody does that they shouldn't be above the rules. Like Vee and Nate said, nobody should.

Let's all improve and be smarter together.

Pretty much. When I say a clean slate, I understand it's hard to let go of past issues and such for everyone, but for me and hopefully the staff, it's just going to be about future actions. If anyone does stuff deserving actions by the mod team, it will be done regardless of who you are. Thread locking does hurt the OP, but I hope there is a future where that thread derailing is stopped before it reaches that point in the first place. It wasn't just Matt either - I was probably involved a little too much in it myself (though, not some of the nastier stuff). We'll naturally need a better way to deal with that stuff moving forward.

The past is int he past. Once the merge is over, as far as I am concerned were all working on clean slates and you are the ones that control what your reputation ultimately becomes, and what actions happen in response to how you act and post.

 

[Nathanial Rumphol-Janc]

If you ask me that makes it the most beneficial time then. It gives us all plenty of time to discuss what should and shouldn't be done when situations arise instead of dealing with them awkwardly as they happen.

Indeed. To be honest, heading into all staff discussions I would love for members to give feedback on all the issues they think exist - and this thread shows that there may indeed be a real issue with consistency.

We're heading into a new era soon. We need to get the issues out in the open if there is any hope to ever come to a reasonable way to address them, and I am all for including the community in that discussion. We're here for you.

 

[Guest_1]

If you ask me that makes it the most beneficial time then. It gives us all plenty of time to discuss what should and shouldn't be done when situations arise instead of dealing with them awkwardly as they happen.

This. This way, both sides of the merger can see what issues still remain and what baggage needs to be addressed once all is said and done.

That said, this isn't about past drama. Regardless of who is involved, if we break the rules, we are responsible. It doesn't matter if you are a member of site staff, wiki admin, forum moderator, and so on. This is a real problem, despite some claims to the contrary.

However, while it's fine and good that we are being given promises as to what will happen when the merger is complete, what about now? Are we going to allow staff members to go into a thread, derail it with bickering, and then lock the thread again while giving all of the perpetrators a pat on the back? That is completely unacceptable and it cannot continue.

 

[Emma]

Pretty much. When I say a clean slate, I understand it's hard to let go of past issues and such for everyone, but for me and hopefully the staff, it's just going to be about future actions. If anyone does stuff deserving actions by the mod team, it will be done regardless of who you are. Thread locking does hurt the OP, but I hope there is a future where that thread derailing is stopped before it reaches that point in the first place. It wasn't just Matt either - I was probably involved a little too much in it myself (though, not some of the nastier stuff). We'll naturally need a better way to deal with that stuff moving forward.

The past is int he past. Once the merge is over, as far as I am concerned were all working on clean slates and you are the ones that control what your reputation ultimately becomes, and what actions happen in response to how you act and post.

For the record right now, I do recognize I got... angry you might say. For that part I do apologize. I was letting some part of my past influence me. But not what people think. I wasn't holding on to past grudges. I was willing to give Nathan the benefit of the doubt, and my assumptions about ZI was simply because I didn't know better, after Nathan gave us a very comprehensive explanation I let that matter slide. The issues of the past I was holding onto were...... of a personal nature that have nothing to do with what has happened here. Very painful things that happened to me five years ago which ZD helped me recover from. The action of moving the forums and undermining the future of the wiki had taken away the safeguard I had, they had helped heal those wounds and having them ripped away from be with being told that my own fate was none of my own business brought back those events to me. I assure you, these things have nothing to do with anyone here at all. They happened in my personal life with people I was personally involved in. Things in my private life dealing with loved ones that ended in disaster.

For that part I apologize for letting my reopening wounds make me more angry than is productive.But I want people to understand why it's important to me and why I got upset. I assure you that I am 100% willing to let all of the past problems with everyone here on both sites go away, my issue that's upsetting me so much is these very, very personal wounds (that honestly pushed me to seriously consider suicide) that ZD was instrumental in helping me with, very literally saving my life. So maybe now you can understand how I feel when I'm represented as the villian when I'm not doing anything wrong, why I'm bothered when people can't let go of past preconceptions. Whatever derailment happened on my part was never a malicious act. I believed those things were relevant. If people disagreed, they should have ASKED how it was relevant instead of assuming it was malicious and seeking the nuclear option. Then if we still didn't agree it had relevance, then the topic could have moved forward then with something people could agree was a more pressing issue.

 

[Ronin]

If you ask me that makes it the most beneficial time then. It gives us all plenty of time to discuss what should and shouldn't be done when situations arise instead of dealing with them awkwardly as they happen.

Sure is funny how dichotomies work. Yes, this is pretty much the most beneficial time to discuss what should happen [in the future], while it is also the least beneficial time to discuss what is happening [the lack of violations]. Albeit different, that contrast can go hand in hand. As you say, now is the opportune time to deal with situations from going awry. For starters, I'd put forward the importance of getting announcements out in a timely fashion. It was one of the key points that I focused on whenever I was still involved with staff work a little more than a year ago; part of my job as a Coordinator. But since then, sharing updates has apparently become more central among the staff, even the mods are involved in it. As opposed to the lateness of the Xenforo switch, the ZD/ZI merger was disclosed before a set date was even given. I'd just like to see that this promptness is maintained.

 

[the8thark]

The staff here are pretty good. Mostly they do a good job. Apart from a few troll topics the staff here refuse to delete (I do not know why the staff refuse to delete them). Also I can say mostly the staff here have listened to me and acted appropriately when I have told them they needed to act (above mentioned few troll topics excepted).

I think if you want a perfect forum, you're dreaming. Such a thing does not exist. True freedom of speech exists on no forum anywhere. All forums have some degree on unjust censorship. It's just part of all every forum unfortunately. So the best you can do is choose a forum that does not have too much staff imposed censorship and enjoy your time there. If the staff ever start running the forum like they are the ruthless dictator of forumland, then you can always leave the forum and find another forum with less corrupt, nasty and arrogant staff. I am not saying the ZD staff are like this, I am just talking in general. If a nice forum turns sour, you can always leave it for a better one.

Just don't get all sentimental over post counts or post histories. They are meaningless in the long run. The only important things are the fun you have chatting with everyone, the things you learn there and the friends you make on the forums. All those things you can keep if you move to a new forum because your current one as turned sour.

 

[Night Owl]

In my time as a member through present day, the basic rules never changed yet the policies of how they were enforced varied based on who was leading the mod team. The lack of consistent policies has led to slow mod responses to all but the most common instances.
And when the mods did act on some of the more uncommon occurrences, the response was extreme because that was all they could do by that point. This recent incident is evidence of that. We likely could have saved that thread if we knew what to do about what was happening and had acted. We lost a good thread because we weren't decisive about what to do about the issue.

I'm one of the newest mods, added at the end of October. One thing that frustrated me was the lack of any guides on how to be a mod other than an out-dated guide written at the beginning of the forum. There were really no other written policies aside from mod experience to go off of. It's my fault that I didn't ask more questions, and I think the general peacefulness of the forums hid the fact that I really needed to.
Instead of asking I decided to try to watch to see how other mods handle things, and I largely saw a seeming inactivity. Sometimes things wouldn't have anything done about them until a couple days after the fact, or the issue would be dropped if a week passed and no other problems sprung up.

This isn't to discredit that we aren't the best team this forum has had in a long time, but I want to show that we still have a lot of room for growth. I hope that we can grow into a team that can better and more appropriately serve this community by discussing and developing the methods we will use going forward.

 

[Jamie]

theres two types of special treatment, from my experience as staff:
1. people we couldn't punish, for a number of reasons
2. people we didn't want to punish, because they were our friends
i can guarantee every staff member has fallen into either of these two traps. the former of which bothers me much more than the latter, because diplomatic immunity is a horrible, horrible thing. the latter one isn't a conscious decision, it's a bias people hold without meaning to.

i don't like speaking for people, but i'm sure djinn would agree with me that there have been a number of users that straight up seem to be unpunishable

 

[Jamie]

The current batch of staff is by and large the least abusive bunch I've seen since I joined here.

this is what everyone said when kit and i first got in. then within 6 months it's "worse staff ever!!!". revisionist history will do this to you. its like the opposite of the zelda cycle.

 

[Jamie]

Sort of going on what Nathan said, why should the past matter so much? This is entirely based on false propaganda from the past. Daring to question the staff gets you labeled a troublemaker. People try damn hard to spread that reputation. And then those who have had it happened to them are branded that way no matter how reasonable they are. Misremember a detail? Get called a malicious liar. Disagree with a decision? Get called a troublemaker. Often I'm accused of the very thing I'm complaining about. Even though it's very much not the case. I explicitly get targeted and threatened by the staff all the time. Any illusions that I'm some protected person above the rules is simply not true. I'm deliberately kept out of certain loops, certain discussions, my actions get closely scrutinized, I always get threads I'm involved in locked more quickly and more easily than anyone else's and singled out in its closing statement regardless of whether I'm the most outspoken one there or if I only ever made a single, soft spoken, post in it. I'm the favored pincushion of the staff. Always blamed for anything that goes wrong, always marginalized for it. This fantasy that I'm some protected individual couldn't possibly be further from the truth. The very intense disagreement I had with Mases and how quickly he not only ignored all I said, but slandered me with what he said, should clue you into how he does not give me any special protection. No more so than he'd give anyone else.

This kind of stuff doesn't help. Look at Nathan and me. To say we have a volatile history with each other is probably the biggest understatement anyone here's ever heard. But how exactly is that supposed to help anyone? We've tried to move forward with our lives. How exactly is hanging on past conceptions of people (real or imagined) supposed to help anything? How is looking people in such a negative light, talking about them like this supposed to help?

I've been singled out as a problem far too much because I simply chose to not agree with staff. We need to end this mentality that staff decisions are holy doctrine written in stone that are beyond contest. We have to stop holding onto past grudges. We have to stop fanning the flames.

"I have never, ever, ever, done anything wrong. Ever." - Matt