Game Thread Inception Mafia

[Ragnarokio]

unvote, vote: ayano keiko

 

[funnier6]

I was gonna do a reads list earlier for the heck of it and then forgot so I guess I’ll do it now.

Town:

Minish- Pretty clear town Minish here, think I’ve already reasoned about it.

Doc: Beginning was a bit weird but he doesn’t strike me as the type to go straight for the bus on day one when it wasn’t necessary. Only town lean I’ve got with hard evidence really.

Bok- I don’t trust my ability nor just about anyone else’s to catch you as scum so I’m basically just gonna think of you as town to stay sane. Typical town Bok as far as I can tell.

Rubik- Don’t trust my ability to read you either, would like recent thoughts @Rubik

Null:

Rag- You’re kind of here, but need more thoughts, I don’t think you’ve posted a reads list and I would really appreciate one. @Ragnarokio

Karu- Considering she posted right at the end of the day so it’s clear to see she was around but made no attempt to save storma or post anything of substance I could see it as either not knowing what’s going on or posting just for sake of showing she had the ability to save storma but did not in an attempt to disassociate with the lynch.

Ayano- Inactive @Ayano Keiko

Scum lean:

Hylian- I don’t like the extreme difference in activity from this game and x men. Will research that more but I want him as the counterwagon to Ryu. I shouldn’t even have put him under scum lean really it’s just a hunch.

Ryu- Me no like, reasons have been explained already.

My inner gut tells me it is a lot more likely that one of Rubik and Bok is mafia with someone below than it is for both mafia members to be in the null/scum lean.

This reads list is really bleh tbh, I should’ve done one when I was fired up.

Vote: Hylian

@DekuNut or @Storm can I get a vote count please?

 

[DekuNut]

Vote Count:
Ayano Keiko (2): Ryuken, Ragnarokio
Ryuken (2): Bok Chan Sama, Minish_Link
HylianEVAN (1): funnier6
Not Voting: Ayano Keiko, karu, Rubik, Doc, HylianEVAN

Day 2 ends at 9PM PDT on Tuesday, April 24, 2018. With 10 here, it takes 6 to reach majority.

 

[Deleted member 14134]

Bok Chan Sama- Town. The only thing I have on them is more a hunch about their initial suicide suggestion. They've posted comprehensive reads, though it's interesting they've left me out of it, saying everything about me has already been said.

Curious about this. Day one you said I was you're third most suspicious read but now you have me as town above 2 scum leans and 2 null leans. Do you feel better about me now or worse about other people? And what brought about this change if you feel better about me?

I stated a few times that I agreed with funnier6's points about lynching someone while one is in the real world versus a dream, especially after he elaborated further. I was hesitant because I'm not used to scumhunting D1, which you can see in past games I've played in like Chaos Mafia.

I just don't see the difference between day one in this game and day on in a normal game. You even said in that post you linked that day one follows standard mafia day settings. I guess you;re saying because of what happens in the later days once we enter the dream tat made you change this policy? I still don't really see how what may happen in later days in this game affects whether or not we should lynch on day one or not.

Personally, I would find switching from wanting a no lynch to wanting a lynch more suspicious if the person joined or started a wagon for no reason whatsoever. The quote you selected is where I reinforce my reasons for agreeing with funnier6, and I don't think I would say I switched over "easily" considering I was hesitant to join him in the first place.

Your reasons weren't your own though, they were funniers. And I would hardly say you were hesitant considering you voted for him in your next post after funnier voted for Rubik.

It gives them less of an obligation to explain further than they "need to," making their posts intentionally vague. In my eyes, this makes them scummy, more so when their assumption or explanation is flawed.

Why not ask him to explain further then and the base whether you want to vote for him on his response?

Objection.
After Storma flipped scum, I was planning on voting Keiko to pressure them to talk because they were inactive like Storma was. You beat me to the punch since you made your vote literally 3 minutes after the announcement was made. Also, "immediately" isn't really an accurate adjective to use considering I made my vote 43 minutes after your vote post. I was on the verge of falling asleep, too, but that's besides the point.

"Immediately" is relative. One thing your votes on Rubik, Yiga and Ayano all have in common is that they were all in your first post since the wagons had formed. The Ayano one doesn't look that bad on it's own since it was your first post of the day but when you compare what it has in common with the other ones it starts to look worse. Then when you top it off with your flimsy reasoning that you think Ayano is scum because he was inactive like Storma it only looks worse.

but I'd like to hear why you think my reasoning for it is flimsy since you just repeated what I said and didn't explain why.

Just the idea that if person x is inactive and they flip scum then person y must also be inactive if they're scum isn't really much of a reason. Ayano is experienced so I doubt he would plan for the entire mafia team to be quiet day one as it would basically be shooting themselves in the foot. I do think being inactive itself looks bad, but I don't think that connecting the two because one flipped scum and they were both inactive is good reasoning.

Do you think I would be that stupid to say this out loud if I was scum?

Since scum knows who and isn't scum they may make a post like that to try to seem "surprised" when people flip. It's not always a scumtell but it just feels like something scum might try to look better.

Also, @Bok Chan Sama remind me when you made your post about my suspicions of you? I'm having trouble finding it, but to answer anyway, my overall suspicions of you can be summarized as "just a hunch," like I said in my reads list. My reasoning against you isn't that strong, after all, so I won't be advocating for a lynch unless something more suspicious happens.

I just went back and re-read and you did end up responding. Idk how I missed that when I was re-reading, my bad.

 

[Deleted member 14134]

Oh right, the other thing! What are we going to do with whoever gets lynched today? Do we send people to go back and kill them? If so who? Do we implore the vig to kill them? We might not have a vig of course but would it be a bad idea to try? Assuming nothing happens I suppose we’d just send people.

Does anyone have any idea how we get sent to limbo? I'm worried mafia may have a role that could prevent people from returning to the last level if they kill themselves. Idk if they could target more than one person but that's a possibility to be wary of. Also we'd be splitting people up and it would take another day to reach DS3 (which I still think is unlikely that we'll all make it there anyways). Only thing to really do is send people back to "confirm" the kill. We'd also be splitting up the town players to do this so it's a bit of a gamble who we pick to go back. I'll think of this more and let you know my thoughts.

 

[Deleted member 14134]

Also you guys need to consider the angle where doc is scum and Yiga isn't. Here were his options that day when the vote was 3-2 for yiga.

1. Do nothing. This would have looked bad for obvious reasons as he had been fairly quiet as he usually is and already had some suspicion against him.
2. Vote for Yiga. Remember that this scenario is assuming Yiga is town. So gets lynched instead of Storma. What happens if Storma gets lynched the next day. Doc, who already had some suspicion on him would look worse since his vote potentially saved scum and got a townie lynched.
3. Vote someone else. Would look bad for the same reasons as above and for the fact that no one else had more than one vote against them.
4. Vote Storma and risk him getting lynched. This to me is clearly the best option. If yiga dies then that's a bonus for the mafia and Doc would look better later if storma eventually flipped scum. If Storma dies then you lose a player who has only posted once all game and makes you look better (which doc would want since he was already under scrutiny).

Storma was probably a sinking ship at this point no matter what. Doc had nothing to lose by bussing him and a lot to gain no matter what the outcome was. I'm not saying this is a guarantee, but you guys are letting him off way too easily in my opinion.

 

[Deleted member 14134]

Honestly this may sound crazy but since we hit scum day one and the only way I know of actually killing scum is to kill them in the real world it might be a better option for everyone to just kill themselves and to play the game in the real world. I assume the mafia is able to send people to limbo by night killing them. Sending them back one level would pretty much just confirm that person as town and wouldn't really help the mafia at all. They would be left hunting dreamers, trying to get everyone back while town just climbed levels and got closer to DS3. Feels like it would just be one giant stalemate. Also splitting up the players means potentially having one group of players that is all town which would only hurt our chances of winning since there's no chance of hitting scum in that group. I know we can win by reaching DS3 but it feels like mafia benefits from everyone being in the dream world more than town does, especially since we can only actually lynch people by being in the real world. Also if the dreamer comes out and claims dreamer for that day and no one counter claims then it's basically a cop check since only town can be the dreamer. We don't have to do this today since we can wait and see if the NK actually sends us to limbo but I want everyone's thoughts on whether it's worth it and why this may or may not be a terrible idea.

 

[Ryuken]

This is just gonna be a wall of me replying to posts. I'll try my best to voice my own thoughts, though.

unvote, vote: ayano keiko

Could you explain why you're voting for them?

I was gonna do a reads list earlier for the heck of it and then forgot so I guess I’ll do it now.

Town:

Minish- Pretty clear town Minish here, think I’ve already reasoned about it.

Doc: Beginning was a bit weird but he doesn’t strike me as the type to go straight for the bus on day one when it wasn’t necessary. Only town lean I’ve got with hard evidence really.

Bok- I don’t trust my ability nor just about anyone else’s to catch you as scum so I’m basically just gonna think of you as town to stay sane. Typical town Bok as far as I can tell.

Rubik- Don’t trust my ability to read you either, would like recent thoughts @Rubik

Null:

Rag- You’re kind of here, but need more thoughts, I don’t think you’ve posted a reads list and I would really appreciate one. @Ragnarokio

Karu- Considering she posted right at the end of the day so it’s clear to see she was around but made no attempt to save storma or post anything of substance I could see it as either not knowing what’s going on or posting just for sake of showing she had the ability to save storma but did not in an attempt to disassociate with the lynch.

Ayano- Inactive @Ayano Keiko

Scum lean:

Hylian- I don’t like the extreme difference in activity from this game and x men. Will research that more but I want him as the counterwagon to Ryu. I shouldn’t even have put him under scum lean really it’s just a hunch.

Ryu- Me no like, reasons have been explained already.

My inner gut tells me it is a lot more likely that one of Rubik and Bok is mafia with someone below than it is for both mafia members to be in the null/scum lean.

This reads list is really bleh tbh, I should’ve done one when I was fired up.

Vote: Hylian

@DekuNut or @Storm can I get a vote count please?

On a side note, I kinda miss the energy you had during D1. It was pretty fun to see.
Also, I noticed that I completely forgot to include my read of Minish in my reads list. I'll just add to your read of Minish that they haven't tripped any flags in my observations that make them scummy. Town, btw.

Curious about this. Day one you said I was you're third most suspicious read but now you have me as town above 2 scum leans and 2 null leans. Do you feel better about me now or worse about other people? And what brought about this change if you feel better about me?

I don't have anything close to solid against you that would put you as either scum or neutral. The suicide offer and me trying to interpret the motive behind it was more speculation on my part.

I just don't see the difference between day one in this game and day on in a normal game. You even said in that post you linked that day one follows standard mafia day settings. I guess you;re saying because of what happens in the later days once we enter the dream tat made you change this policy? I still don't really see how what may happen in later days in this game affects whether or not we should lynch on day one or not.

It doesn't seem like you read further on than this when you made this point. I addressed this by explaining why I agreed with funnier6's points:

In the IRC games I used to play before, many people were comfortable revealing night info because it not only solidified their alignment, it helped Town figure out whether or not it would be a good idea to Lynch or No Lynch. D1 usually ends with a No Lynch in my games. Obviously, those games weren't as serious or slow-paced as these forum games because no one here thinks or plays like that. The meta here seems to be that giving Mafia even the slightest edge is a disadvantage to Town whether that be No Lynching D1 or revealing night info the following days.

I mention some of this in my Inception rule analysis, but considering the nature and theme of this game and based on the Inception rules, there are possibly roles or modifiers created exclusively for this game that give both Town and Mafia certain perks. Otherwise, it would be pretty stacked against Mafia due to Town's extra win condition of reaching Dreamscape 3- AKA Day 4. Since no one wants to reveal roles and powers unless absolutely necessary, we have to rely on deductions and interpretations based on prior knowledge from previous games. No game I've ever played before has had special rules or conditions like this, so therefore, it seemed necessary to me to change my approach and take it more seriously. That is why I thought we should try lynching someone D1, and why I agreed with funnier6's points.

Reread my post and the quotes I used from funnier6 and let me know if you're still confused.

Your reasons weren't your own though, they were funniers. And I would hardly say you were hesitant considering you voted for him in your next post after funnier voted for Rubik.

Well, I was hesitant. I explained why I said this when Rubik asked me.

Why not ask him to explain further then and the base whether you want to vote for him on his response?

I guess I could have done that in retrospect... you have a point here.

"Immediately" is relative. One thing your votes on Rubik, Yiga and Ayano all have in common is that they were all in your first post since the wagons had formed. The Ayano one doesn't look that bad on it's own since it was your first post of the day but when you compare what it has in common with the other ones it starts to look worse. Then when you top it off with your flimsy reasoning that you think Ayano is scum because he was inactive like Storma it only looks worse.

It does look bad, I'll admit that. The only thing I can do here is repeat the fact that I don't take opportunistic votes. If someone makes a good point or if my suspicions lead me to a certain person, that's how I'll vote.

Just the idea that if person x is inactive and they flip scum then person y must also be inactive if they're scum isn't really much of a reason. Ayano is experienced so I doubt he would plan for the entire mafia team to be quiet day one as it would basically be shooting themselves in the foot. I do think being inactive itself looks bad, but I don't think that connecting the two because one flipped scum and they were both inactive is good reasoning.

I didn't say Ayano or the Mafia purposefully stayed quiet. I said here that the Mafia were probably trying to figure out the rules and their roles in the private discussions. It could be that some of the members (like Storma) were too preoccupied with their daily life to read-through the main thread and make posts, but that's just speculation. I understand now why you say my reasoning is flimsy.

Since scum knows who and isn't scum they may make a post like that to try to seem "surprised" when people flip. It's not always a scumtell but it just feels like something scum might try to look better.

There is a scumtell I've seen (and done, admittedly) in my IRC games that's exactly how you describe this. I forget what it's called, though.

I just went back and re-read and you did end up responding. Idk how I missed that when I was re-reading, my bad.

I forgive ya. You're pursuing me pretty aggressively, so it's understandable that you'd remember some posts wrong.

Storma was probably a sinking ship at this point no matter what. Doc had nothing to lose by bussing him and a lot to gain no matter what the outcome was. I'm not saying this is a guarantee, but you guys are letting him off way too easily in my opinion.

I'm still waiting for Doc to make a post. Even after looking at the options, it still sounds strange to me that Doc would bus Storma considering the only vote Doc had on his wagon was from funnier6.

Honestly this may sound crazy but since we hit scum day one and the only way I know of actually killing scum is to kill them in the real world it might be a better option for everyone to just kill themselves and to play the game in the real world. I assume the mafia is able to send people to limbo by night killing them. Sending them back one level would pretty much just confirm that person as town and wouldn't really help the mafia at all. They would be left hunting dreamers, trying to get everyone back while town just climbed levels and got closer to DS3. Feels like it would just be one giant stalemate. Also splitting up the players means potentially having one group of players that is all town which would only hurt our chances of winning since there's no chance of hitting scum in that group. I know we can win by reaching DS3 but it feels like mafia benefits from everyone being in the dream world more than town does, especially since we can only actually lynch people by being in the real world. Also if the dreamer comes out and claims dreamer for that day and no one counter claims then it's basically a cop check since only town can be the dreamer. We don't have to do this today since we can wait and see if the NK actually sends us to limbo but I want everyone's thoughts on whether it's worth it and why this may or may not be a terrible idea.

I don't really like the idea of everyone killing themselves, and here's why:
There is a chance that someone here will actually be sent to limbo instead of the real world, basically killing themself off. I assume everyone else here is in DS1 since we advance to a new DS with each day that passes, but then again, it's only an assumption based on the Inception rules. We don't know whether or not someone here won't be able to make it back to the real world, and I don't want to risk that.
Also, players that are nightkilled get simply sent back a layer or to the real world if they aren't blocked from doing so. I don't see how this could cause a stalemate unless Mafia consistently hit a Dreamer, which is unlikely. If everyone else decides to go along with this, I say let's not do it today and instead wait until we enter DS2/D3.

 

[Ryuken]

I'm starting to get worried about @Ayano Keiko . Where are you, my dude?

 

[Rubik]

Back from my weekend adventures.

I'll do a quick read of today's posts tonight and see what stands out to me.

 

[Doc]

I don't really know how to respond to the suspicion against me bussing a scumbud other than...I didn't.

I've never been in a situation where I had to bus a scumbud, but I certainly wouldn't do it day one when Storma wasn't even at risk of being lynched. Storma had two votes on them because he was inactive. Not because there was genuine suspicion against him. Jumping on YIGA's wagon would have been a much easier course of action to keep a mafia power role. Especially considering these game rules, where even if Storma is killed later on, he would only drop into a lower dreamscape and not be revealed (assuming I have that right).

Now that we're in the dreamscape, I guess I'm in the same school of thought as Bok regarding splitting up the town. We have to remember that technically you're not supposed to look into other dreamscapes. So any players who agree to suicide will be virtually unseen by the rest of the players. It just seems like its going to be difficult pinning down players in different dreamscapes. I do think we should go for DS3 instead of Bok's plan of suiciding back to the real world for the entirety of the game. At least for right now when we don't know how one gets sent to Limbo. I wouldn't be surprised if this were a dreamer ability, based on the OP.

I will try to get reads out tomorrow on players. (I'm super exhausted and pulled an all-nighter for an event. Half the reason I haven't posted today before I saw people mentioning me).

 

[Deleted member 14134]

lso, players that are nightkilled get simply sent back a layer or to the real world if they aren't blocked from doing so.

Do you really believe that's all that will happen? Won't that just clear whoever gets sent back that day as town? It feels like nightkills from the mafia will be sent to limbo but I could be wrong. It just seems useless for the mafia to only be able to send one person back a level every night. Also unless we figure out a way to kill people for good in dreams (aka limbo) we're going to have to send people back to the real world with them and finish them off. It's going to take those people who get sent back another day to reach ds3 and give the mafia even more time to pick us off one by one. If we keep sending people back it just makes it take longer to reach our goal and if we don't send people back then we might as well not lynch people if we're not going to bother sending people back to finish them off. I think not lynching people is a mistake though which is why based on my current understanding of the game and what I assume will happen with the night kills, it makes more sense to play the game from the real world.

 

[Deleted member 14134]

Granted, I think we should wait and see how the mafia nightkills happen and then make our decision tomorrow but that's my opinion on the matter.

 

[Rubik]

Do you think the Mafia would risk a coin toss between two wagons that would determine the fate of their own Chemist?

Is Chemist a common role or something? I've honestly got no idea what the role does/did.

-

@Bok: If we all commit suicide (and scum doesn't) we won't be able to lynch scum anymore and we'll lose the game, as far as I can tell.

-

Yesterday's Final Vote Count (Order of relevant votes in parenthesis)
karu (1): Ayano Keiko
funnier6 (1): HyrulianEVAN
YIGAhim (3): Rubik (#1), Minish_Link (#2), Ryuken (#4)
Stormageden (3): Ragnarokio (#3), Bok Chan Sama (#5), Doc (#6)
Doc (1): funnier6
Rubik (1): YIGAhim
[Not voting: Karu, Stormageden]

This sort of end result is interesting because there's basically no situation where scum should be letting this happen. What's even more bizarre to me is that neither YIGA nor Storm made self preservation votes on one another. Potential reasons could include one or more of the following:

• Both wagons containing scum (statistically unlikely, but possible).
• Scum that was too inactive to react in time to save Storma.
• Scum that felt pressured to stay on the Storma wagon.
• Scum that was already on the YIG wagon so they couldn't swing things away from the Storm wagon.
• Scum that wanted to bus Storma to take advantage of their ally's inactivity.

In my opinion, between the weird day 1 semi-sacrifice of Storma and the NK being on funnier6, I think there's still at least one inactive/pseudo-active player in the mafia team remaining hiding among the lurker pool, if not two. A triple lurker scum team would be pretty unlikely, though.

Speaking of pseudo-active players:

Vote: HylianEVAN

I'll have some updated reads tomorrow.

 

[Deleted member 14134]

Is Chemist a common role or something?

No idea. Probably a flavour name. could be something akin to poisoner if I had to guess.

@Bok: If we all commit suicide (and scum doesn't) we won't be able to lynch scum anymore and we'll lose the game, as far as I can tell.

Except if the dreamer is town and they commit suicide the dream collapses and everyone goes back a level.