General Zelda Egoraptor's 'Sequelitis: A Link to the Past Vs. Ocarina of Time'

[Thomas Jacobs]

Yeah...he does. He's always complaining about everything that requires some form of tutorial, has any story to it or is just Mario in general. Danny seems to be having fun though.

And when the game provides a tutorial, he runs straight past it and spends a quarter of an hour complaining about how the game doesn't tell him what to do. Just like in the Sonic 06 playthrough where they ran by a giant floating question mark SEVERAL TIMES and did not think about interacting with it.

 

[snakeoiltanker]

One of my biggest problems with Arin is that he comes across as one of those older gamers...y'know the ones that never moved one from the "Good ol days"

Ahhh! so the truth finally come out, thats why we butted heads so much when I first started coming around LOL, its all good DL, you know i still like ya!

heres the thing. Ego and I see eye to eye on almost everything, i will say there are a couple things in this video i disagree with, like the waiting to attack enemies in OoT. I'm not a patient gamer. I swing and swing, or use items just so i dont have to wait, and i will keep trying till i find a way to systematically removes said enemy in a matter of seconds, thats just how i roll!

Where Ego and I agree, is that all these extensive tutorials in games these days are asinine. Picking up an Item and having a quick explanation such as "this weapon does this when you hit 'A' but it does this with hitting 'b'" is one thing, but when you have to go through a 5 minute tutorial just to learn one move, is just stupid. Zelda is REALLY guilty of this recently, OoT not so much, and you could ignore her if you wanted too, but since then you have all these long explanations that really dont even help that much. Yeah maybe im stuck in the past where the game just lets you figure it out, and thats the way i like it. But if there are going to be tutorials i dont see why they can't just do it like say Darksiders, where if something you need to no is coming up, and you reach the point you need to do it, Instead of stopping the game, a line just pops up on screen such as "Jump and Hold A while pushing towards the wall to do a wall run". See how simple that is, and you didnt have to stop me from playing the game to do it. This sense of hand holding going on in gaming nowa day is just sad, and feels like the developers are just treating us all like a bunch of idiots who have never played a game before.

So yeah, I guess us "Old Gamers" just dont like being told what to do, we have been playing games for over 20 years, i think we can figure it out. Just trying to shed a lil light on why we have that opinion!

 

[Salem]

Where Ego and I agree, is that all these extensive tutorials in games these days are asinine. Picking up an Item and having a quick explanation such as "this weapon does this when you hit 'A' but it does this with hitting 'b'" is one thing, but when you have to go through a 5 minute tutorial just to learn one move, is just stupid. Zelda is REALLY guilty of this recently, OoT not so much, and you could ignore her if you wanted too, but since then you have all these long explanations that really dont even help that much. Yeah maybe im stuck in the past where the game just lets you figure it out, and thats the way i like it. But if there are going to be tutorials i dont see why they can't just do it like say Darksiders, where if something you need to no is coming up, and you reach the point you need to do it, Instead of stopping the game, a line just pops up on screen such as "Jump and Hold A while pushing towards the wall to do a wall run". See how simple that is, and you didnt have to stop me from playing the game to do it. This sense of hand holding going on in gaming nowa day is just sad, and feels like the developers are just treating us all like a bunch of idiots who have never played a game before.

So yeah, I guess us "Old Gamers" just dont like being told what to do, we have been playing games for over 20 years, i think we can figure it out. Just trying to shed a lil light on why we have that opinion!

I don't think "Old Gamers" are the only ones who don't like being told what to do, I think any normal human being would get frustrated by unskippable tutorials.

Where me and Ego disagree is it seems he's against the idea of tutorials in general and he thinks games should just teach you by gameplay alone, me personally I think ALL tutorial be possible to be skipped, I don't mind the existence of them, I just like being given the option of not wasting my time with them.

 

[DarkestLink]

I don't think "Old Gamers" are the only ones who don't like being told what to do, I think any normal human being would get frustrated by unskippable tutorials.

Should tutorials be skippable? ...Maybe. But as a whole, I want them around. I want to know how to play the game I just purchased. And I want a game with actual depth that a tutorial is needed for. The reason NSMB gets so old is because it's too simplistic and there's not much to expand on.

 

[snakeoiltanker]

I actually though about that while i wrote my response, a combat system deep enough that needs a real tutorial where you practice is usually rewarded with great gameplay

 

[AncientPoe]

A good tutorial doesn't feel like a tutorial at all, but rather an escalating gameplay element that layers learning upon mastery. Just look at Portal: that game is almost all tutorial, with the "behind the scenes" portion being like your final test to see if you got it all down. And as for Zelda games, they have some of the best tutorials of all: the Know-It-All Brothers. You don't even have to talk to them or read their signs, depending on the game. you don't ever even have to set foot in their houses, if you already know what you're doing. Even in a game like Twilight Princess that didn't have them, you're given a bare introduction into sword attacks, a brief bit on the slingshot, and then everything else you learn in the game is layered a bit at a time with time in between to master it (like the Hero's Shade techniques).

 

[Salem]

Should tutorials be skippable? ...Maybe. But as a whole, I want them around. I want to know how to play the game I just purchased. And I want a game with actual depth that a tutorial is needed for. The reason NSMB gets so old is because it's too simplistic and there's not much to expand on.

I don't wanna sound pedantic but, why is there a "maybe", I mean can you ever justify unskippable tutorials?

 

[Musicfan]

I don't wanna sound pedantic but, why is there a "maybe", I mean can you ever justify unskippable tutorials?

If skipping them is longer then doing them. Like a tutorial takes 5 secends very minimal load time due to chracters already being I place. Skiping it causes the chracters to have to jump and possibly load an area more rapidly.

 

[DarkestLink]

I don't wanna sound pedantic but, why is there a "maybe", I mean can you ever justify unskippable tutorials?

1) It's too short to be worth skipping.

2) It's subtly placed into the story.

3) A tutorial can be fun, if done right.

 

[Octorokstar]

He bashed on both games for limitations and other things that just really didn't seem to be necessary. For example: Do people ever complain about Mario for being like a guided tour?


Then the moment ALBW comes up, he doesn't even try to push the standard he was going for in ALttP and OoT

 

[Salem]

If skipping them is longer then doing them. Like a tutorial takes 5 secends very minimal load time due to chracters already being I place. Skiping it causes the chracters to have to jump and possibly load an area more rapidly.

That's weird, I don't even understand it.

1) It's too short to be worth skipping.

There's no such thing as "too short to be worth skipping".

2) It's subtly placed into the story.

3) A tutorial can be fun, if done right.

To reply to both of these, this is the kind of thing that Egoraptor actually praised in Mega Man X, the intro stage is a tutorial but it's it feels like regular gameplay, it doesn't stop you every few minutes to say "press this button to do this" and stuff.

This rarely happens in modern Zelda, just look at the 3D games since OOT.

 

[Garo]

This rarely happens in modern Zelda, just look at the 3D games since OOT.

To be fair, Majora's Mask didn't really have a tutorial. It had a trial by fire Clock Town as Deku Link prologue that forced you to learn how to play the game pretty fast given the three-day clock. Super effective, even if 8 year old me got stuck there longer than he cares to admit.

 

[Salem]

To be fair, Majora's Mask didn't really have a tutorial. It had a trial by fire Clock Town as Deku Link prologue that forced you to learn how to play the game pretty fast given the three-day clock. Super effective, even if 8 year old me got stuck there longer than he cares to admit.

I didn't have MM in mind when I made that comment, actually when you think about it, MM is the odd one out when it comes to the intro, I like it better for the reasons you said, except for the 3-day limit, that keeps it from being perfect.