Spoiler Why Must There Be a Split Time-line?

[myperuba]

I realize that it has been semi-explicitly stated that there is a split time-line, but I don't see how this is logically possible. I also think there is a lot of evidence in the games to prove there isn't a split time-line. Basically my theory states that in OoT when the sages seal Ganondorf in the dark realm, Rauru is killed, as shown as one of the sages being killed in the sealing cutscene of TP. Rauru is not shown in the Ocarina of Time end credits, and neither is Kaepora Gaebora if you believe he is Rauru. This could prove that Twilight Princess follows directly from that adult Link OoT end. The celebration in the end credits of OoT is also in the adult period because the adult Epona is shown. Anyway when Zant snaps his neck and kills Ganondorf I think Ganon spirit was simply brought back into the dark realm/twilight realm again by Zant. Years later aLttP occurs and Ganon has to appear through Agahnim because his body was destroyed in TP, and his true pig spirit is still in the dark realm. We all know Ganon can't die so at the end of aLttP Ganon isn't dead. Anyway LA awakening occurs and while Link is gone Ganon reappears in the Light/Normal world, how he does it is unknown. Link from aLttP is the Hero of that current time so when the people look for the Hero, he is out on his boat. Therefore the gods flood Hyrule. In the Flood Link's ship is destroyed leading to the events of LA. He lands on Outset Island afterwards where the tradition of the Hero is passed down until WW Link.

I think my timeline is semi-logical, although every time-line must discard some facts. So can someone explain to me why there must be a split time-line.

Another random thought is that if child Link went back to warn Zelda and the King of Hyrule about Ganondorf, why would anyone believe him. Zelda already thought Ganondorf was bad and nobody listened to her. Also if the King did listen to Link and Zelda, how where the sages rounded up to seal Ganondorf. Link would have had to do this himself again, which would totally defeat the purpose of his being sent back to enjoy a normal life. I think the end scene of OoT just shows the Link went to talk to Zelda to tell her what was going to happen.

 

[Shroom]

I can't quite comment for the top bit since I just skimmed, but the bottom part I can answer.

Link goes back in time to warn the kingdom of what will happen and to re-live his childhood. Now before they would have seen him as just imagining things like Zelda, so they wouldn't have taken him seriously, BUT in the ending credits you'll notice he has the Triforce of Courage on his hand, so it's almost undeniable that he wouldn't be lying because he had been chosen by the goddesses and would have told a story similar to Zelda. Would the one wielding the Triforce of Courage be likely to lie? I don't think so, or well I don't hope so xP

 

[JuicieJ]

Really? You don't think it's logical? There's no way there isn't one. See, The Wind Waker followed the time that Link left behind in Ocarina of Time (which is where the festival was taking place in the credits). Majora's Mask follows the time that Link returned to to "regain his lost time." The Wind Waker's Link has no connection in bloodline to the Hero of Time, which wouldn't make sense it it were a linear "timeline." And it stated in The Wind Waker's backstory that the Hero didn't return when Ganon(dorf) returned. That's because he went back to the the time of his childhood and sealed the Door of Time. He couldn't return because of that. And, besides, with Hyrule flooded, there's no way that it could take place on a linear timeline with The Wind Waker obvously being a direct sequel to Ocarina of Time. Plus, there's no mention of the other stories on each "timeline." Majora's Mask wasn't mentioned in The Wind Waker, and The Wind Waker wasn't mentioned in Twilight Princess. A linear "timeline" just doesn't work. Here's how the timeline would go (without any contradictions or grey areas at all):

............/WW--PH--ST
SS--OoT
............\MM--TP

Hope this clears things up for you.

 

[myperuba]

@Dekushroom, why would Link have the Triforce of Courage if he was returned to the time before he let Ganondorf into the sacred realm. He couldn't have had the triforce on his hand at that point because Ganondorf had not touched the Triforce. So still Link has zero credibility. He's just some out of touch boy from the forest with a wild imagination.

@JucieJ, wouldn't it be very boring to have at the start of each game the entire timeline told with 10 different stories retold? It's called the Legend and since its basically the same thing of Link defeating Ganondorf over and over thats pretty much as detailed as you need to get. Also why would WW be mentioned in TP if TP came before WW in a linear timeline, or why would MM, a side story, bear any relevance to WW. In the Wind Waker opening it says that the legend of the Hero of Time was passed down through the generations, and then Ganondorf reappeared. So a mortal Link Hero of Time would obviously be dead with all those generations passing so whether he didn't return because he went back to the child time is irrelevant.

Here's how my Linear Time-line would work.

SS-OOT-MM-TP-WW

and I don't see what the blood line has to do with anything. If anything the blood line is that of the Knight of Hyrule, not a specific Link.

 

[JuicieJ]

@Dekushroom, would the one who had the triforce of power be likely to lie either? Didn't Ganondorf have it at that point?

@JucieJ, wouldn't it be very boring to have at the start of each game the entire timeline told with 10 different stories retold? It's called the Legend and since its basically the same thing of Link defeating Ganondorf over and over thats pretty much as detailed as you need to get. Also why would WW be mentioned in TP if TP came before WW in a linear timeline, or why would MM, a side story, bear any relevance to WW. In the Wind Waker opening it says that the legend of the Hero of Time was passed down through the generations, and then Ganondorf reappeared. So a mortal Link Hero of Time would obviously be dead with all those generations passing so whether he didn't return because he went back to the child time is irrelevant.

Here's how my Linear Time-line would work.

SS-OOT-MM-TP-WW

and I don't see what the blood line has to do with anything. If anything the blood line is that of the Knight of Hyrule, not a specific Link.

The Hero's Shade is a previous Hero (probably the Hero of Time), and he said that Link was in his bloodline. That's big in The Wind Waker, as it's evidence for the split "timeline." And, yes, about all the different backstories, but there were no hints or connections between the games anywhere throughout them. There surely would be some if they were on a linear "timeline." Nintendo themselves even says that The Wind Waker is on a separate "timeline," I believe. That's what The Wind Waker was made for. Plus, the Triforce of Courage was broken, yet Ganondorf and Tetra still had their Triforce pieces (Tetra didn't have the full thing, but that was for protection). How could it have split into eight pieces? Well, it would have done that when Link returned to his true time, as a Triforce piece couldn't just be taken back and leave the time with just two. And where would the other games (A Link to the Past and the original two) fit in if The Wind Waker came along before them? There's no linear timeline, and that's clear. It's what's intended, and I believe stated, by Nintendo. Locke could tell you more on direct Nintendo quotes. Moreover, the split "timeline" was set out on its own, away from all of the other Zelda games made before (save Ocarina of Time, somewhat). Not like a side-story, but it was intended to not connect to be canon with all of the previous Zelda games that had come out. I hope you know what I mean by that.

 

[TheGermanLegend]

First of all, watch the cut scene in TP again. You'll notice the killed Sage has the water medallion on him, so it can't be Rauru.

And know why there must be a split. Imagine there a two point at the timeline. A and B. A is when Link warns Zelda and B is when Link left at the end of OoT

--A--B--

When Link warns Zelda he does somethink that didn't happed in this time, so the whole futur is changed. Theres a new point, which I'll call C, where B was.

--A--B-- -> --A--C--

Now because there is no B Link never travels back in time. But this meas A never happens. But if A never happens, who can there be a C????

The only way to solve this problem is a split.

----/--B
--A
---\--C

Link travels back at B, warns Zelda at A and creats C. Both B and C exist next to each other, but the only way to travel from C to B is over A. And you'r not allowed to change anythink at A because it would creat a D.

I hope you understand what I was trying to say

 

[myperuba]

You seem to be ignoring the fact that I already said I know what Nintendo said about the split time-line. I simply don't care because it doesn't make sense.
And at this point I'm basically ignoring the 2d. I don't think Zelda I and II really have a place in the time-line. But As I previously said aLttP and LA could come between TP and WW if you wanted to force them into the time-line. Also in reference to the Triforce being broken, if the games are linear then what you say is irrelevant, leaving one time with only two triforce pieces. If it is linear there aren't two different times. Because if Link retained the Triforce piece when going back in time, obviously as he grew older it would be there in the time when he was an adult. I suppose when he died it would simply become a physical object and could then be broken up. Also another fact the contradicts the split time-line is if TP follows child Link, Ganondorf would never have touched the Triforce in OoT because child Link warned everyone yet he still possessed the Triforce of Power in TP. And again in regards to blood-line, you say that the bloodline is big in WW, refresh my memory on why that is or what you specifically mean by that?

 

[Locke]

I realize that it has been semi-explicitly stated that there is a split time-line

Fully explicitly stated. Just have a look at the developer quotes page for several quite explicit statements.

Basically my theory states that in OoT when the sages seal Ganondorf in the dark realm, Rauru is killed, as shown as one of the sages being killed in the sealing cutscene of TP. Rauru is not shown in the Ocarina of Time end credits, and neither is Kaepora Gaebora if you believe he is Rauru. This could prove that Twilight Princess follows directly from that adult Link OoT end.

That's circular logic. A theory you made under the assumption that TP follows the AT does not prove the latter.

We all know Ganon can't die so at the end of aLttP Ganon isn't dead.

Ganon can die.

You will need Silver Arrows to
give Ganon his last moment.

AST confirms that he is killed in LttP.

Also if the King did listen to Link and Zelda, how where the sages rounded up to seal Ganondorf.

TP shows that the ancient sages were still alive at that time, and they were the ones who sealed Ganondorf. It is assumed that they were killed during Ganon's seven year rule on the AT leading to Link needing to awaken new sages.

Majora's Mask wasn't mentioned in The Wind Waker, and The Wind Waker wasn't mentioned in Twilight Princess.

Technically, both of these are false. WW contained the Legend of the Fairy, which described MM Tingle, and I think there's something that has WW's writing on it in TP, or that might have only been in Beta.

Locke could tell you more on direct Nintendo quotes.

Okay, I guess I'll post them then.

Question: Where does The Wind Walker fit into the overall Zelda series timeline?

Eiji Aonuma: You can think of this game as taking place over a hundred years after Ocarina of Time. You can tell this from the opening story, and there are references to things from Ocarina located throughout the game as well.

Shigeru Miyamoto: Well, wait, which point does the hundred years start from?

Eiji Aonuma: From the end.

Shigeru Miyamoto: No, I mean, as a child or as a...

Eiji Aonuma: Oh, right, let me elaborate on that. Ocarina of Time basically has two endings of sorts; one has Link as a child and the other has him as an adult. This game, The Wind Waker, takes place a hundred years after the adult Link defeats Ganon at the end of Ocarina.

Shigeru Miyamoto: This is pretty confusing for us, too. (laughs) So be careful.

2002

Nintendo Dream: When does Twilight Princess take place?

Eiji Aonuma: In the world of Ocarina of Time, a hundred and something years later.

Nintendo Dream: And the Wind Waker?

Eiji Aonuma: The Wind Waker is parallel. In Ocarina of Time, Link flew seven years in time, he beat Ganon and went back to being a kid, remember? Twilight Princess takes place in the world of Ocarina of Time, a hundred and something years after the peace returned to kid Link's time. In the last scene of Ocarina of Time, kids Link and Zelda have a little talk, and as a consequence of that talk, their relationship with Ganon takes a whole new direction. In the middle of this game [Twilight Princess], there's a scene showing Ganon's execution. It was decided that Ganon be executed because he'd do something outrageous if they left him be. That scene takes place several years after Ocarina of Time. Ganon was sent to another world and now he wants to obtain the power...

2007

You seem to be ignoring the fact that I already said I know what Nintendo said about the split time-line. I simply don't care because it doesn't make sense.

Quantum physics can get confusing too, but you don't see me saying all those physicists are wrong just because it doesn't make sense to me. It's generally a good idea to trust word-of-God aside from blatant contradictions. Instead of ignoring it, you should seek to make sense out of it. If you search for "split timeline" I'm sure you will find plenty of explanations.

And at this point I'm basically ignoring the 2d. I don't think Zelda I and II really have a place in the time-line. But As I previously said aLttP and LA could come between TP and WW if you wanted to force them into the time-line.

LoZ/AoL are confirmed sequels to LttP, and there's no reason for them to have been taken out of the timeline.

Also in reference to the Triforce being broken, if the games are linear then what you say is irrelevant, leaving one time with only two triforce pieces.

Link didn't actually have the ToC when he went back in time, at least not the AT's ToC. That was split up and later found in WW. What appeared on his hand was merely the symbol that he was the chosen one. AoL, OoX, and WW all show Link with the crest but with no ToC (only during the Ganondorf battle for WW).

Also another fact the contradicts the split time-line is if TP follows child Link, Ganondorf would never have touched the Triforce in OoT because child Link warned everyone yet he still possessed the Triforce of Power in TP.

And how does a linear timeline fix that? Ganondorf was subdued before doing something outrageous (before touching the Triforce, as you say), but the ToP was given to him (by a "divine prank") during his execution. It's a contradiction in itself, independent of how many timelines there are.

 

[JuicieJ]

Thanks for the quotes. (Although they somewhat confuse things.) =\

You seem to be ignoring the fact that I already said I know what Nintendo said about the split time-line. I simply don't care because it doesn't make sense.

You can't just ignore something and say it isn't so just because it doesn't make sense to you. That's a very weak argument. (Good use of terms...or, whatever the phrase I can't think of that's better than that is, on that, Locke.) :yes:

Link didn't actually have the ToC when he went back in time, at least not the AT's ToC. That was split up and later found in WW. What appeared on his hand was merely the symbol that he was the chosen one. AoL, OoX, and WW all show Link with the crest but with no ToC (only during the Ganondorf battle for WW).

Wait, what do you mean. When he fused the Triforce of Courage back together and showed it to the gods, they granted it to him. It wasn't just a symbol, The Wind Waker Link actually did acquire the Triforce of Courage.

And how does a linear timeline fix that? Ganondorf was subdued before doing something outrageous (before touching the Triforce, as you say), but the ToP was given to him (by a "divine prank") during his execution. It's a contradiction in itself, independent of how many timelines there are.

I wouldn't necessarily say it was given to him "during his execution." I would say he already had it. There's no real way to say, but I say him already having it makes more sense. Either way, though, the Triforce was split without someone touching it some time before Twilight Princess.

 

[myperuba]

I am simply disregarding Nintendo's split timeline theory because obviously I can't make a linear timeline theory if I do listen to it. How would I theorize about a Linear timeline if I'm basing certain knowledge of a split timeline. I believe I can logically prove a linear theory even if it isn't what is meant by Nintendo. I said that TP follows the AT, but I really meant the time-line which continues towards WW. I believe I reconciled these beliefs fairly well with a few assumptions. Split-Timeline obviously uses unproven assumptions as well to reconcile contradictions like you said about the Ancient sages being around and then killed. Also I'm pretty sure I already explained how a linear time-line explaining how Ganondorf has the ToP in TP. Returned child Link couldn't warn Hyrule about Ganondorf because who would believe him. Child Link simply lived through this time so he didn't miss seven years of his life sleeping in the temple. I guess there would be two child Link's running around at that point in time but that's the risk of time travel . But all the events occured exactly the same. Therefore Ganondorf did have the ToP when he was sealed. Then when he broke out in TP he obviously would still have it. Also, the gods would randomly play a "trick" and give Ganondorf the Triforce of power for no reason? The man who would wreak havoc on their precious creation and Hyrule. Yeah, how much sense does that make.

 

[TheGermanLegend]

Returned child Link couldn't warn Hyrule about Ganondorf because who would believe him. He was not returned to the time at the exact start of the game. Rather, he was returned to the time when he original went into the temple and was put to sleep.

No that's wrong. Befor entering the Temple of Time we saw Zelda escaping from Hyrule Castel and we were told she never returnd there until she gave Link the Silver Arrows, when Ganon captures her. There is also the dying soldier in OoT that tells you that Ganondorf took over the castel. So it's impossible for Link to arrive after this, because he meets Zelda in the Castel garden.

 

[myperuba]

Yeah I realized that as soon as i posted and edited my post.

 

[Oni Cucco]

The split time line is official, period

 

[myperuba]

To believe in the split-timeline you have to believe three completely illogical things. First, that the King would listen to a strange child from the forest who claims to be from the future and accuses Ganondorf of the unthinkable with no proof, this after the King did not believe his own daughter. Second, that the gods would give Ganondorf the ToP and allowing him to live and be destructive for absolutely no reason. The gods always appeared to save Hyrule, not destroy it. Third, every detail of every Zelda game is canon. It has often been stated that the developers didn't care about the story or time-line for many of the early games, and probably therefore some after games after OoT, such as the Oracle games and Four Swords games. It's also fairly obvious there was no giant plan or time-line to relate Zelda I, II and aLttP and OoT at the point of the development.

@Oni Cucco, thanks for that helpful comment. I already acknowledged that point. This discussion has nothing whatsoever to do with what is official, but rather what is logical.

 

[JuicieJ]

To believe in the split-timeline you have to believe three completely illogical things. First, that the King would listen to a strange child from the forest who claims to be from the future and accuses Ganondorf of the unthinkable with no proof, this after the King did not believe his own daughter.

It's more likely that Link, Zelda, and Impa just prepared for an attack by Ganondorf rather than Link telling the King. Or maybe Link came up to him with Impa and convinced him.