Team Fortress 2: Mann vs. Machine

[Soul]

I see. So you were feigning ignorance to see if Johnny would take the bait if he were scum, since at the time we assumed that this was a role madness game.

Exactly that.

 

[Pen]

Judging by the idea that Johnny did not know about the odd/even night stuff would logically (at least in my mind) make him either VT or Mafia. This alone is definitely not reason enough for a lynch. However, with Frozen Chosen's added info we can assume that Johnny is either Vig or Mafia. From what Frozen Chosen has said I would assume he is some sort of Watcher/Tracker kind of role. Putting these two together, the only thing that matches up is that Johnny is with the Mafia (or possibly SK). Either way I think it is enough to justify a vote. Of course I am making an assumption here by trusting Frozen Chosen for now, but that is a risk I am willing to take right now because I believe that the results will be worth it either way, and we do not exactly have any other leads for the time being anyway.

Vote: Johnny Sooshi

My suspicions are leaning towards Pendio. He has seemed really scummy this game, but this round especially. I was going to vote for him last round, but without any real evidence, I decided to just leave it the way it was. Now, people have brought up some interesting points. I'm ready to cast my vote. also, people need to understand that this is just a game. You've all started attacking each other! Calm down, and look at the posts like reasonable human beings. If someone attacks you, you don't need to retaliate, either.

K thanks, bye...

And
vote: Pendio

Well, it's mostly just a feeling, but some of his posts, too. I'll look through the previous posts and see if I can find one that stood out as scummy or suspicious.

You talk about not voting yesterday because you did not have any "real evidence", yet today you vote without really saying anything other than you have a gut feeling and think I am really scummy. I would really like to see some real evidence that could back up your vote.

 

[Night Owl]

So it looks like both mafia and a vig went after sadia.
And it feels like we are back to square one since we lynched storm knowing it was likely he would flip town.

What I want to know is why @Malon counterclaimed. I don't think that was adequately explained.

I know that his cc outed storm as a liar, but it could be that malon was lying as well. As a mafia he might have CCd to create confusion and to convince the town that he is the true doctor in order to get protection from the other doctor. The true doctor with that role might have stayed silent in order to stay hidden.

Sadia had voted for Malon on day 1, perhaps she was on to something.

 

[Soul]

So it looks like both mafia and a vig went after sadia.
And it feels like we are back to square one since we lynched storm knowing it was likely he would flip town.

What I want to know is why @Malon counterclaimed. I don't think that was adequately explained.

I know that his cc outed storm as a liar, but it could be that malon was lying as well. As a mafia he might have CCd to create confusion and to convince the town that he is the true doctor in order to get protection from the other doctor. The true doctor with that role might have stayed silent in order to stay hidden.

Sadia had voted for Malon on day 1, perhaps she was on to something.

Possible, but I think it's unlikely. I think the real doctor would have vouched for a Malon lynch by now, and I didn't see anyone do that.

 

[Mipha]

So it looks like both mafia and a vig went after sadia.
And it feels like we are back to square one since we lynched storm knowing it was likely he would flip town.

What I want to know is why @Malon counterclaimed. I don't think that was adequately explained.

I know that his cc outed storm as a liar, but it could be that malon was lying as well. As a mafia he might have CCd to create confusion and to convince the town that he is the true doctor in order to get protection from the other doctor. The true doctor with that role might have stayed silent in order to stay hidden.

Sadia had voted for Malon on day 1, perhaps she was on to something.

I now believe that my counterclaim was more of a noobish mistake. I thought that Storm was a Mafia member that was trying to trick everyone and I was trying to prevent that from happening.

 

[Johnny Sooshi]

I'm really sorry, dude. I meant you didn't know about the odd/even restriction just like Tristan mentioned.



Sorry if that was confusing.

Now, talking about my knowledge that he is not vanilla Townie. I was purposefully trying to be vague on that one. I heard some mention that they would like to go forward with this day by lynching Sooshi, so I would like to know if you want me to give a detailed answer as to why I think Johnny Sooshi isn't a vanilla townie. If the majority of people say so, then I'll go into more detail.

That being said, if you would like to know my other suspicions, hop on over to my homepage where I take an in-depth look at Kokirion and Pendio's argument, Link in Time's slight protection of Sooshi, and Jamie's role claim of gudfather. Don't forget to subscribe. (Sorry, I'm really tired and I need to wake up. I'm not funny in the morning... or really ever for that matter....)
But I do find these guys, except Jamie, suspicious.

I'd really like to know specifically know why.
Also, not sure where this reasoning of me being Vig is coming from. Can anyone explain to me why this is being assumed?

 

[Johnny Sooshi]

I vote no, since enough has been said already. If Johnny flips town we'll know where to look next, so I think the possibility of you purposely trying to mislead us into lynching a townie is rather low.

So this post is probably gonna be looked at as panicky and reactionary, but I see Soul's post as scummy. Rather than listen to Frozen's evidence on any I'm either vig or scum, he's shutting down discussion by saying know, followed by a vote. Now maybe that is a town type of move, but that, coupled with other thinks has me believing he's scum.

 

[Soul]

So this post is probably gonna be looked at as panicky and reactionary, but I see Soul's post as scummy. Rather than listen to Frozen's evidence on any I'm either vig or scum, he's shutting down discussion by saying know, followed by a vote. Now maybe that is a town type of move, but that, coupled with other thinks has me believing he's scum.

What would those other things be?

 

[Soul]

And I was saying no because I don't want him to roleclaim. What he said and what kokirion reasoned is enough for me at the time being.

 

[Johnny Sooshi]

What would those other things be?

In particular you were asking me how I knew of the even/odd cycle. Coupled with this I'd say you could easily have been scum playing to find out what the town knew

 

[Soul]

In particular you were asking me how I knew of the even/odd cycle. Coupled with this I'd say you could easily have been scum playing to find out what the town knew

Possible, yes. As I explained to A Link in Time, I was scumhunting, but I can't prove that right now of course. Anything else? I'll be happy to adress whatever you throw at me.

 

[Johnny Sooshi]

And I was saying no because I don't want him to roleclaim. What he said and what kokirion reasoned is enough for me at the time being.

What he's said hasn't been explained. There's no basis other than him believing me to be a specific something. To summarize Frozen, "Johnny is scum because of something I'm not going to outright explain, but instead ambiguously hint at". I fail to see that as evidence.

 

[Soul]

What he's said hasn't been explained. There's no basis other than him believing me to be a specific something. To summarize Frozen, "Johnny is scum because of something I'm not going to outright explain, but instead ambiguously hint at". I fail to see that as evidence.

You did read kokirion's post, didn't you? What he said makes a lot of sense to me. FC's post doesn't clear up much, yes, but other than him just completely making it up, which I doubt, I can't think of any other more logical explanation for his play. Can you?

 

[Johnny Sooshi]

You did read kokirion's post, didn't you? What he said makes a lot of sense to me. FC's post doesn't clear up much, yes, but other than him just completely making it up, which I doubt, I can't think of any other more logical explanation for his play. Can you?

I'm not sure post by kokirion you're referring to, but I'm assuming his response to Frozen and saying Frozen must be a tracker or watcher.

Frozen could easily be making it up. It's mafia after all.

All I'm saying is there is very clear misinformation here. I'm not sure why people believe I'm Vig, because I'm not. Taking evidence at face value without considering real evidence can end up being detrimental to the town.

At this point if I'm not lynched then scum will most definitely try to NK me in order incriminate someone else, so I really have no way of defending myself.

 

[Viral Maze]

Almost!
But no, it was rather a joking way to tell those who played a couple of games with me that they should look at the statistics, because it has indeed often been the other wat around. It's not strange though. Often when I did was scum I tried harder to survive, whereas as a townie I opened up more, which also made me look more scummy.

My point is that this is simply my way of thought. I can still be town or scum, but opposed to immediatly seeing my open playstyle as scummy and my closed playstyle as more trustable, rather, look at my actions.

The only things that happened so far have been that I saw Storm as town. I was right about that, and I was one of the few that advocated not to waste our day 1 lynch on such an obvious townie. I later also stated that he was probably not an important townie either. At the time, I very specifically said that I expected there to be no VT's, and that Dekunut replaced these by weak power roles. I was right about this too (not the VT's though), he was half a roleblocker. I never specifically stated that the odd-even-night system was at play, because I saw that as dangerous for my own protection to reveal that, but this did was an obvious reference to it. I then also figured out there probably was a second doctor and designed a system to protect Malon. And look at the results, maybe it was due to something else, but the bottom line is that Malon is still alive. At the very least my plan didn't fail. And to further build on this, I questioned Pendio's alginment, but later also concluded that he was actually more likely to be town.

Now imagine that I would be scum. First. Why would I try not to lynch Storm? No one would've noticed if I would've applauded his lynch, had I only pretended to be super salty. Many other players like Tristan did so too, and didn't end up looking scummy. So a certain town-lynch on day 1, and possibly even a doctor or important townie that dies! That would be a great hit. If I'd be mafia, if I would look at all my options, this would be a move that's so much more effective. Secondly, why would I try to protect Storm/Malon in the first place. I could also just not have suggested that. And then comes this whole RB thingy, but I honestly do not see the possible advantage for me if I'd be mafia to tell OR not tell this. It seems rather irrelevant to me.
Then comes my theory about there being many weak town power roles. I could've just guessed this and made it up, but I would've been really lucky though if I genuinely did not have any info about that in my own role.
And finally Pendio. I think I had enough arguments against him to keep that clash going on. withdrawing hurt me more than I gained from it. As a townie I did that because I honestly changed my mind. As mafia I would not care, I would've ingored the evidence that no one else picked up anyway, and continued.

I'm not saying I cannot be scum. But if I compare the 2 paragraphs above, I could not imagine I would make so many of the choices I did if I were mafia. Because out of all the options I could've chosen, these would've been the most suicidal. There were far better options, as I noted, that no one else would probably have picked up anyhow. So no need to specifically play suicidal as some sort of dubble-bluff.

that is why I do not understand the wariness from my own point of view. I'd say this game I'm more obviously town than I've every been before, lol. Let this game then be a lesson about Kokirion's playstyle.

I'm going to address this Day 3. I don't want to detract from whats currently going on unless we get an extension or more time since we only have ~24 hours.

The fact that he didn't know about the two team set up made me become suspicious of him. He could be a vanilla townie, but I feel like he is more likely a vig or scum. I wanted to stop talking about it because I didn't want to bring more attention to Johnny being potential vig.



This response to having suspicion thrown at him was interesting. Sooshi seems pretty calm about being lynched and wants to help the town but I don't know if he is just hoping we think he is a vig trying to help the town. Mind games (whether existent or nonexistent).
I have my own, pretty solid reasons for believing that he is not a vanilla townie.

Why scum rather than another power role? Not saying I believe Johnny, but let me play devil's advocate. One would assume you're a watcher or tracker, and generally those roles don't know what was done during the night, just who was targeted or did the targeting. You say he's either the vig (meaning he's an every night vig since he didn't know about the odd/even thing) or scum, but what if he's an every night cop, or even a JOAT or other PR?
Do you specifically know that Johnny did a bad thing to Sadia?

Aargh, no one's voted so far except Malon...

I honestly don't really know who to vote for presently. The only suspect I currently have is maybe Johnny Sooshi because of his post a while back:



For reasons stated by a couple of other members, I think this makes him either VT or mafia. If no other cases are made for other players, I think I'll vote for him tomorrow.

Fos Hero

I now believe that my counterclaim was more of a noobish mistake. I thought that Storm was a Mafia member that was trying to trick everyone and I was trying to prevent that from happening.

Protip: If mafia claims your role, and its not a Lylo or Mylo situation, don't counter claim. Let it slide, build a case, keep pressure and questions on that player to see how they interact with other players. Build a case basically. Then expose them later (which may confuse the town and lead to your mislynch so its better to not do this late in the game, but mid game) or when you die by NK, they themselves are exposed and all your questions and that scums relations to other players are still in thread for those who reread.