Team Fortress 2: Mann vs. Machine

[Viral Maze]

Also:

Guys, stop these personal attacks and insults that everyone throws at each other. I fully understand you, but it are these responses that are draining all the fun out of the game. Yes, I did not think Storm's move was clever, but that did not justify all the hate that it brought upon him. And these hate comments ruined this game. Now a similar thing with Dan. I do not even understand where that is coming from, and to be honest I couldn't care less either. So stop this bull**** or I'm the next to leave this game.

This*100

 

[kokirion]

I'm going to address this Day 3. I don't want to detract from whats currently going on unless we get an extension or more time since we only have ~24 hours.

I'll put it in my agenda.

And I was saying no because I don't want him to roleclaim. What he said and what kokirion reasoned is enough for me at the time being.

Why scum rather than another power role? Not saying I believe Johnny, but let me play devil's advocate. One would assume you're a watcher or tracker, and generally those roles don't know what was done during the night, just who was targeted or did the targeting. You say he's either the vig (meaning he's an every night vig since he didn't know about the odd/even thing) or scum, but what if he's an every night cop, or even a JOAT or other PR?
Do you specifically know that Johnny did a bad thing to Sadia?

Exactly because of Viral's reasoning, I do want to hear from Frozen exactly how he got to it. Maybe it's not based on solid evidence? Or when it is, then we have a good lead and I will vote Johnny. I want to be able to judge that for myself, though.

 

[Soul]

I'm not sure post by kokirion you're referring to, but I'm assuming his response to Frozen and saying Frozen must be a tracker or watcher.

Frozen could easily be making it up. It's mafia after all.

All I'm saying is there is very clear misinformation here. I'm not sure why people believe I'm Vig, because I'm not. Taking evidence at face value without considering real evidence can end up being detrimental to the town.

At this point if I'm not lynched then scum will most definitely try to NK me in order incriminate someone else, so I really have no way of defending myself.

Sure he could be making it up, but as I said before, I'm finding that rather unlikely. If he's making it up he's scum, but why would a scum player do this kind of thing? It's way too early in the game for a bluff like that.

That said, Viral Maze makes a good point:

Why scum rather than another power role? Not saying I believe Johnny, but let me play devil's advocate. One would assume you're a watcher or tracker, and generally those roles don't know what was done during the night, just who was targeted or did the targeting. You say he's either the vig (meaning he's an every night vig since he didn't know about the odd/even thing) or scum, but what if he's an every night cop, or even a JOAT or other PR?
Do you specifically know that Johnny did a bad thing to Sadia?

If FC has one of those roles, I'm fairly certain it's the Tracker. It's much more likely that he targeted Johnny last night, who a couple of people found suspicious due to his lack of understanding of the odd/even night restriction. Besides, if he was a watcher, he would have gotten at least two results, since it's confirmed by the flavour text that at least two people targeted Sadia that night. IF Johnny is indeed neither the mafia killer nor the vigilante, as you suggest, then he'd have to be another powerrole that just so happened to target Sadia aswell. It's possible I suppose, but I find the chances of three people all targetting the same, rather inactive player in the first night are pretty low. My vote stands.

Exactly because of Viral's reasoning, I do want to hear from Frozen exactly how he got to it. Maybe it's not based on solid evidence? Or when it is, then we have a good lead and I will vote Johnny. I want to be able to judge that for myself, though.

That would mean he'd have to roleclaim. Do you really think it's worth it?

 

[Soul]

One more thought: if Johnny was indeed another town powerrole that targeted Sadia, what powerrole would that be? If it was a cop, wouldn't that mean that the mafia killer would have killed him aswell? Does anyone know how that works? @DekuNut?

 

[kokirion]

Sure he could be making it up, but as I said before, I'm finding that rather unlikely. If he's making it up he's scum, but why would a scum player do this kind of thing? It's way too early in the game for a bluff like that.

That would mean he'd have to roleclaim. Do you really think it's worth it?

I think so, yes.
it could give us a great lead. Besides, when he roleclaims we can check it. We can ask the doctor the following, to very his role and if he's scum in reality, the cop can claim midway the game. If he never claims we can assume FC is genuine.

And like I said, he's already made too many hints to stay hidden anyway. Everyone expects him to be some sort of tracker or what not. Furthermore, that's not even a super important role. It's helpful, and might give us a great lead right now, but the mafia tries to hunt down some even stronger town roles. It's not like he's a doctor for example. I'd say it's a good moment to claim.

 

[Soul]

I think so, yes.
it could give us a great lead. Besides, when he roleclaims we can check it. We can ask the doctor the following, to very his role and if he's scum in reality, the cop can claim midway the game. If he never claims we can assume FC is genuine.

And like I said, he's already made too many hints to stay hidden anyway. Everyone expects him to be some sort of tracker or what not. Furthermore, that's not even a super important role. It's helpful, and might give us a great lead right now, but the mafia tries to hunt down some even stronger town roles. It's not like he's a doctor for example. I'd say it's a good moment to claim.

Seeing as he's pretty much out in the open now anyway, I'm inclined to agree.

 

[DekuNut]

One more thought: if Johnny was indeed another town powerrole that targeted Sadia, what powerrole would that be? If it was a cop, wouldn't that mean that the mafia killer would have killed him aswell? Does anyone know how that works? @DekuNut?

I'm having a hard time understanding the question, but I'll try.
If a person being killed by the Mafia has other roles targeting them the night of death, the other power roles targeting the deceased will survive. The killing only effects the target, not their visitors.

 

[Soul]

I'm having a hard time understanding the question, but I'll try.
If a person being killed by the Mafia has other roles targeting them the night of death, the other power roles targeting the deceased will survive. The killing only effects the target, not their visitors.

Alright, thanks for answering.

That means it's possible for Johnny to be a cop investigating Sadia that night. Cop is the only role I can think off though, because I believe it's likely that any others would have been in the flavour text, similar to how the mafia henchman was in the flavour text despite the vigilante getting the kill.

 

[Mellow Ezlo]

Ok, I just woke up and merely skimmed the thread, but from what I understand, people are voting for Johnny Sooshi based on the possibility that FC is a Tracker? We don't even know what his actual role is or what it does, so it doesn't seem like the best basis for a lynch. What if Frozen is actually something different, like a role cop (which is usually a mafia role). If he is indeed a Tracker and discovered that Johnny targeted Sadia, mafia and vig aren't the only possible options. What if he roleblocked her? What if he investigated her? I don't see a reason for a cop not to target an inactive player during the first night because they're hard to read and it's good to get a confirmation. If I were an odd-night cop, I may have investigated her tbh.

Now I'm not saying any of this is true, and I don't think Johnny should confirm any of them, but I just want to make sure we consider all our options. I'm not saying Johnny is for sure town, he may very well be mafia too, but I don't think the evidence against him is enough. He could have also acted naive about the odd/even night restriction as a bluff.

This all assumes that FroCho is actually telling the truth about everything. His "claim" seems to be the entire basis for Johnny's lynch.

Now with this all being said, even though it may seem contradictory, I'm willing to let johnny's lynch go ahead seeing as he's currently the best lead we've got. And hey, if he flips town, then we can go after FroCho tomorrow. Or maybe let the cop investigate him tonight.

 

[Soul]

Ok, I just woke up and merely skimmed the thread, but from what I understand, people are voting for Johnny Sooshi based on the possibility that FC is a Tracker? We don't even know what his actual role is or what it does, so it doesn't seem like the best basis for a lynch. What if Frozen is actually something different, like a role cop (which is usually a mafia role). If he is indeed a Tracker and discovered that Johnny targeted Sadia, mafia and vig aren't the only possible options. What if he roleblocked her? What if he investigated her? I don't see a reason for a cop not to target an inactive player during the first night because they're hard to read and it's good to get a confirmation. If I were an odd-night cop, I may have investigated her tbh.

Now I'm not saying any of this is true, and I don't think Johnny should confirm any of them, but I just want to make sure we consider all our options. I'm not saying Johnny is for sure town, he may very well be mafia too, but I don't think the evidence against him is enough. He could have also acted naive about the odd/even night restriction as a bluff.

This all assumes that FroCho is actually telling the truth about everything. His "claim" seems to be the entire basis for Johnny's lynch.

Now with this all being said, even though it may seem contradictory, I'm willing to let johnny's lynch go ahead seeing as he's currently the best lead we've got. And hey, if he flips town, then we can go after FroCho tomorrow. Or maybe let the cop investigate him tonight.

If there is one, that is. Honestly, I agree with you, and if a better target pops up, I'll gladly change my vote.

 

[Frozen Chosen]

Now I would like to clarify that I never said I knew that Johnny was Scum. Perhaps were are jumping to conclusions on that. What I am saying is that he is probably not a vanilla townie based on what I know. The idea that he was vig or scum wasn't first brought up by me, but I did think he could be either one. Now I'm not so sure; however, I would be willing to vote for him if that is what we all feel like. Do you guys still want me to tell you what I know? It may not be what you are all thinking.

 

[Johnny Sooshi]

The fact that he didn't know about the two team set up made me become suspicious of him. He could be a vanilla townie, but I feel like he is more likely a vig or scum. I wanted to stop talking about it because I didn't want to bring more attention to Johnny being potential vig.

Now I would like to clarify that I never said I knew that Johnny was Scum. Perhaps were are jumping to conclusions on that. What I am saying is that he is probably not a vanilla townie based on what I know. The idea that he was vig or scum wasn't first brought up by me, but I did think he could be either one. Now I'm not so sure; however, I would be willing to vote for him if that is what we all feel like. Do you guys still want me to tell you what I know? It may not be what you are all thinking.

Like I said before, I'd like your evidence. I'm not sure what it is, but honestly, I'm starting to feel that you are scum.

 

[Mellow Ezlo]

That's what I was saying. The suspicions on Johnny are based almost entirely on the assumption that FroCho is a Tracker. I'd like to hear what "evidence" he has before jumping to conclusions.

 

[Frozen Chosen]

First off, I want to say that I'm sorry for messing up mafia terms. I thought VT was another term for vig but after looking back, you guys were talking about Vannila Townies... Totally my bad guys. So perhaps the vig thing was brought by me. Again that's my mistake.

I do have another reason for being suspicious of Sooshi but it has to do with the whole odd/even powers thing that Sooshi didn't supposedly know about.

This made me think of something actually. Malon hinted at not necessarily being able to use his power every day. What if the team aspect of TF2 means one is, say even day, one is odd day when it comes to specific powers? Thoughts?

I thought the same thing. He's likely either scum or a townie. In which case, if we can't get a decent lead today, he could be a good lynchee, since at worst we'll lose a vanilla townie if it's a mislynch. That said, I think it's too early to push for a lynch, since he hasn't done anything else that could incriminate him.

Again sorry for the mix up. But even without a vig, Sooshi is not VT. Either that means he is scum who didn't know about the power divide or he slipped up.

I'm so stupid. Sorry to create all this unneeded confusion.

 

[Soul]

First off, I want to say that I'm sorry for messing up mafia terms. I thought VT was another term for vig but after looking back, you guys were talking about Vannila Townies... Totally my bad guys. So perhaps the vig thing was brought by me. Again that's my mistake.

I do have another reason for being suspicious of Sooshi but it has to do with the whole odd/even powers thing that Sooshi didn't supposedly know about.






Again sorry for the mix up. But even without a vig, Sooshi is not VT. Either that means he is scum who didn't know about the power divide or he slipped up.

I'm so stupid. Sorry to create all this unneeded confusion.

So you're absolutely certain he can't be a vanilla townie then?