Sexual Objectification in Smash Bros 4

[Ventus]

Exactly how is pointing out a fallacy a circlejerk?

You know how near-everyone in the thread has the exact same opinion and is essentially getting off to the fact that each other has the same opinion? That makes it a circlejerk. There's no opposing argument; there's nothing of interest besides the pleasure of someone posting what is practically the exact same thing as the OP.

Anyway

 

[JuicieJ]

You know how near-everyone in the thread has the exact same opinion and is essentially getting off to the fact that each other has the same opinion? That makes it a circlejerk. There's no opposing argument; there's nothing of interest besides the pleasure of someone posting what is practically the exact same thing as the OP.

Anyway

It's largely responding to Garo at this point.

 

[mkwLM]

It's largely responding to Garo at this point.

You and I weren't reading the same thread then. The last several posts on the previous page were just reaffirming each other's shared opinion that Smash can do no wrong (using pictures mostly), it's been about 10 posts since anyone has quoted or directly addressed anything Garo said.

 

[Ver-go-a-go-go]

I hate to use the word "circlejerk" but this thread is rapidly turning into one. It's not a good look.

Perhaps if the dissenting side offered more than snide remarks that throw the topic off-rails, we could keep things on track. I was hoping you would keep the conversation up since you're in the supposed minority with this, although you did fail to reply to Juice while you two were having a good conversation: http://zeldadungeon.net/forum/showthread.php?t=49989&page=3&p=901907&viewfull=1#post901907. Personal attacks and saying we "aren't a good look" isn't appreciated.

You and I weren't reading the same thread then. The last several posts on the previous page were just reaffirming each other's shared opinion that Smash can do no wrong (using pictures mostly), it's been about 10 posts since anyone has quoted or directly addressed anything Garo said.

Absolutely nowhere have I made the claim that "Smash can do no wrong", which is an incorrect assumption on your part. I strongly disagree with many of the character choices, especially the leaked "clone" characters, just as I feel that many of the gameplay advancements post-Melee haven't been beneficial to the series when it comes to a competitive scene. These are the types of problems people should be pointing out about Smash, not crying "sexism!" because it's the trendy thing to do in this industry.

 

[Garo]

These are the types of problems people should be pointing out about Smash, not crying "sexism!" because it's the trendy thing to do in this industry.

I haven't responded to your reply, Vergo, mostly because I don't really have a counter for your points. I see it as simply a difference of interpretation, which is perfectly valid and fine. I don't think you're gross and I don't harbor any ill-will of any kind, I just think you interpret things differently than I do. That's it. So rather than continue in an argument that I don't think is going anywhere because of this difference in basic interpretation, I elected not to post in this thread - particularly since some of the attitudes I've seen in this thread bother me much more than anything in Smash.

But this attitude is one that I resent incredibly strongly, and am honestly insulted by.

You disagree with me and that's fine. But it's petulant and beyond the scope of civil discourse to suggest that I hold the opinions that I do because it's "trendy." Perhaps my life experiences lead me to see things differently than you. Perhaps I've learned the same things you have but in a way that invisibly pushes me toward certain interpretations over others. There are all sorts of reasons that we may differ on this subject. None of those reasons are that I am holding an opinion I don't sincerely hold simply because it's trendy to do so. It is incredibly rude and dismissive to attack the integrity of people who disagree with you and have done so in a civil, respectful manner.

This is all even beyond the fact that you're setting up a false dichotomy by suggesting that one cannot be irked by the problematic gender politics of Smash Brothers while also finding fault with gameplay mechanics from title to title. I actually agree to a measured extent with both of your complaints about the game proper in addition to my issues with the game's gender politics. Both things, by the way, are not things I openly complain about or go out of my way to disparage, but rather closely held disatisfactions that I only voice when prompted or when such a discussion already exists.

I have a tremendous amount of respect for you, Vergo. But this was beneath you.

 

[JuicieJ]

But this attitude is one that I resent incredibly strongly, and am honestly insulted by.

I'm going to let Vergo respond to the entirety of your post, as it was intended for him, but I absolutely have to address this, because it's exactly the kind of thing I was referring to as "petty" in the chat. You're insulted by a simple statement that has extreme merit and wasn't even aimed at you, but rather the gaming community as a whole -- much like your statements regarding objectification in the industry -- because... because.

Seriously, I can't fathom any reason why this would be insulting to anyone, and I think the fact that it did insult you is an indication that you're going farther out of your way to cry foul than you think you are. You're on the defensive over nothing whatsoever, and that is beneath you.

I feel that this image has relevance in this situation:

 

[Seth]

I'm going to let Vergo respond to the entirety of your post, as it was intended for him, but I absolutely have to address this, because it's exactly the kind of thing I was referring to as "petty" in the chat. You're insulted by a simple statement that has extreme merit and wasn't even aimed at you, but rather the gaming community as a whole -- much like your statements regarding objectification in the industry -- because... because.

Seriously, I can't fathom any reason why this would be insulting to anyone, and I think the fact that it did insult you is an indication that you're going farther out of your way to cry foul than you think you are. You're on the defensive over nothing whatsoever, and that is beneath you.

I feel that this image has relevance in this situation:

The irony is strong with this one...

 

[JuicieJ]

The irony is strong with this one...

...Yes, because I totally whined about being insulted/offended by Garo's post. /sarcasm

Question: Do you make it a goal in your life to take jabs at me, even when they make absolutely no sense? Because you do a really good job at it.

 

[Ver-go-a-go-go]

But this attitude is one that I resent incredibly strongly, and am honestly insulted by.

You disagree with me and that's fine. But it's petulant and beyond the scope of civil discourse to suggest that I hold the opinions that I do because it's "trendy." Perhaps my life experiences lead me to see things differently than you. Perhaps I've learned the same things you have but in a way that invisibly pushes me toward certain interpretations over others. There are all sorts of reasons that we may differ on this subject. None of those reasons are that I am holding an opinion I don't sincerely hold simply because it's trendy to do so. It is incredibly rude and dismissive to attack the integrity of people who disagree with you and have done so in a civil, respectful manner.

Let me also start by saying that my intention was never to reduce your personal arguments to something that’s “trendy” or not relevant. I’m truly sorry if you took that last statement as something that was directly aimed at you, as it was hardly my intention at all. I was admittedly irked at mkwLM’s labeling of many other people’s views as “circlejerking”, as it’s very possible to also take that as a personal insult meant to degrade other’s personal opinions. The reply was aimed at him/her alone, and not at you at all, as I feel you’ve done a commendable job of attempting to explain your viewpoint in light of other factors and arguments I’ve also made.

Indeed, my intention this entire time is to highlight how many detractors of this factor in Smash have little merit to their arguments, and how many of them do indeed hold a double-standard when it comes to males vs females. I stand by my statement, that, in today’s industry, it most certainly is trendy to oppose any type of perceived “sexualization” against females while ignoring the same issue with males. Does this mean it applies to you as a person? Of course not, and I hope you understand that.

This is all even beyond the fact that you're setting up a false dichotomy by suggesting that one cannot be irked by the problematic gender politics of Smash Brothers while also finding fault with gameplay mechanics from title to title. I actually agree to a measured extent with both of your complaints about the game proper in addition to my issues with the game's gender politics. Both things, by the way, are not things I openly complain about or go out of my way to disparage, but rather closely held disatisfactions that I only voice when prompted or when such a discussion already exists.

I have a tremendous amount of respect for you, Vergo. But this was beneath you.

This was to oppose the false umbrella statement that I think “Smash can do no wrong”, which is, quite frankly, an almost insulting over-simplification of my argument that isn’t true especially concerning the aspects of Smash Bros that actually matter when it comes to how it is as an actual video game. I also never said that gender issues were mutually exclusive from gameplay issues when it comes to having a problem with either, but, as I said above, that many people in this industry and community hold the false belief that this gender issue is what TRULY is the main detractor of this Smash game, when there are other factors they should be concerned about as well, including but not limited to the ongoing “casualization” of the franchise that many think is occurring.

I truly am sorry if you’ve lost respect for me, and I think I should also include that I’ve had the upmost respect for you since I rejoined this forum late last year. If I’ve gotten too heated and personally insulted you, I deeply apologize for that, and I hope you understand that it was never intended in that way.

 

[Seth]

...Yes, because I totally whined about being insulted/offended by Garo's post. /sarcasm

Didn't say it had anything to do with this particular thread...

 

[Garo]

Let me also start by saying that my intention was never to reduce your personal arguments to something that’s “trendy” or not relevant. I’m truly sorry if you took that last statement as something that was directly aimed at you, as it was hardly my intention at all. I was admittedly irked at mkwLM’s labeling of many other people’s views as “circlejerking”, as it’s very possible to also take that as a personal insult meant to degrade other’s personal opinions. The reply was aimed at him/her alone, and not at you at all, as I feel you’ve done a commendable job of attempting to explain your viewpoint in light of other factors and arguments I’ve also made.

Indeed, my intention this entire time is to highlight how many detractors of this factor in Smash have little merit to their arguments, and how many of them do indeed hold a double-standard when it comes to males vs females. I stand by my statement, that, in today’s industry, it most certainly is trendy to oppose any type of perceived “sexualization” against females while ignoring the same issue with males. Does this mean it applies to you as a person? Of course not, and I hope you understand that.

This was to oppose the false umbrella statement that I think “Smash can do no wrong”, which is, quite frankly, an almost insulting over-simplification of my argument that isn’t true especially concerning the aspects of Smash Bros that actually matter when it comes to how it is as an actual video game. I also never said that gender issues were mutually exclusive from gameplay issues when it comes to having a problem with either, but, as I said above, that many people in this industry and community hold the false belief that this gender issue is what TRULY is the main detractor of this Smash game, when there are other factors they should be concerned about as well, including but not limited to the ongoing “casualization” of the franchise that many think is occurring.

I truly am sorry if you’ve lost respect for me, and I think I should also include that I’ve had the upmost respect for you since I rejoined this forum late last year. If I’ve gotten too heated and personally insulted you, I deeply apologize for that, and I hope you understand that it was never intended in that way.

We all mess up from time to time, sometimes saying something in a way that carries part of a meaning we didn't intend, and I have lost no respect for you. I was simply a bit surprised at the character of your statement, and felt the need to call it out (perhaps overly defensively, but as my integrity is one of the few things upon which I pride myself, I tend to be very defensive when it is questioned, even indirectly). If anything, I've gained respect for you given this gracious and level-headed response.

I feel like we disagree a lot, but it's always a pleasure when we do.

 

[Jamie]

It's so nice when two friends come together like this. :')

 

[JuicieJ]

Didn't say it had anything to do with this particular thread...

I've never once made a post in a thread saying that I was offended by anything. Glad to see you're still at your life goal, though.

 

[キラ]

What is wrong with having muscle-y men and busty women showing skin in video games? There are people who really look like that, you know. And yeah, Zero Suit Samus' can contort into positions that some of which are physically impossible, but humans can't throw fire balls like Mario either.

 

[Terminus]

Looking at stills from games are really not the best way to determine "sexism." People do a similar thing on tumblr where they freeze frame an animated show and then make fun of how poorly drawn some details can be. And obviously, when you are promoting a fighting game, you want to show the playable characters in an attack, since, y'know, it IS a fighting game.