Revamped Swordplay

[Oathkeeper95]

Many of you guys already know by now that the creators are going to be "revamping" the controls in Wii Zelda. This could also pertain to swordplay. They also said that they are planning on adding WiiMotion Plus to the game.
Now, when answering questions about Wii Zelda a couple of months ago they said to ,"Think of Zelda when playing the swordplay and archery minigames in Wii Sports Resort".

Well, today I finally had a chance to play those minigames when I gotten my hands on that game at a certain Gamestop close to my home. I couldnt really make heads or tails out of the archery controls but thats sorta my fault for not taking the practice lesson on the game and also for playing it for only about 6 minutes. After the archery i headed straight for the swordplay to see what its like. At first, I had some trouble with it but then (after losing the round several times) I took the practice session and learned the finer points. After trying again the swordfighting was easier and pretty fun. After playing for 28 mins I relunctantly let someone else try it out.


Now, im pretty sure that motion-based gameplay would be a pretty incredible addition to a zelda game once and i really hope our zelda team will take a smack on it. This addition could possibly make Zelda Wii an incredibly awesome game AS LONG AS the zelda team doesnt screw it up (And they better not screw it up) .

Anyway, the reason i made this thread is to ask you all: What is your opinion on the revamp of controls? Especially pertaining to the swordplay.
What do you think (or hope) the swordplay would be like for zelda wii.



PS. Dont ask me the source of any of those statements and/or interviews. I dont know!

 

[Waker of winds]

Well, I think that they will use the benefits of the Wii motion plus to make a better experience in swordplay, but how?

I would like them to add different types of swords, that each have a different style of use. That would be a good thing.

Also, some special attacks that are used depending in how you move the Wii remote.

New puzzles. That is something that they're obligated to improve.

Anyway, just to make the game more entertaining. That is the duty of the programmers.

 

[Immortal_One]

Swordplay is a feature in Zelda games that wasn't improved on much until Twilight Princess. I'm not just talking about the physical controls, but the special moves and such as well. I wouldn't mind seeing the Wii Motion Plus controls added into the new Zelda games, but I would like to see a toggle of it. During boss battles, I'd love to have more sensitive movement to my Wii-mote making it seem a lot more interactive when I slash a humongous monster up with my sword, but if I'm just killing a few small monsters just to get a few hearts, I'd like to take care of them with just a few flicks of the wrist.

I don't think it would be absolutely necessary to revamp the controls in that way, but it sure would be a plus. The Wii version of Twilight Princess was very enjoyable with the level of interactivity it offered, but those differences seem minuscule when you play the Gamecube version for little while, neglecting the mirrored environments, of course. Really what I'm trying to say is that I would be all for revamping the controls of Zelda games to see the Wii's capabilities of interactivity, but I don't necessarily think that the controls are in dire need of change.

 

[dur.i.am]

I like the idea of the new controls, They seem quite fun to use but if they turn out to be what I have thought may happen I will be greatly disappointed and this will put me of completing the game, I will simply get agitated by the controls and leave the game to gather dust on my shelf for all eternity.

But I have faith in the Zelda team at Nintendo and I think the controls will turn out to be great. I believe that the "revamped" controls will make the game very enjoyable, As long as they get a good story like OoT or TP. I think that the use of the Motion Plus may help produce one of the best Zelda's yet.

 

[Gohma]

Interesting...
In TP, I loved the Wiimote controls, especially for the sword.
Doing wide, useless moves to slash goblins was very entertaining x)

For the new Zelda, maybe we'll have to use the bow like a real bow (the nunchuck would be the string), the Ball and chain by rotating the Wiimote... etc.
But, wouldn't this be a little tiring?
I remember, when I was desperatly trying to catch the Hylian Loach without the sinking lure (It is POSSIBLE ><), I got tired quickly...
So, that's okay for some items which would be easy to use anyway, but I hope it won't be as tiring as the fishing rod for the others.

Like Waker said, they would also make puzzles using that, I especially see a puzzle where you will have to 'draw' the Triforce on a piece of wood using the sword, or something like that. x)

 

[basement24]

For one thing, I hope it's more refined than it is in Wii Sports Resort. It's not quite there yet, but like the original Wii Sports, it's a good tech demo for the new features. Of course, games have since evolved from the original Wiimote controls, so they should evolve from the original Wii Motion Plus. (Ie - They theoretically should be better by the time the new Zelda arrives)

With the way Wii Motion Plus needs to calibrate, and how frequently it needs to, it won't be used 100% of the time. There will probably be moments where you are not using it, so you'll pull your bow, and it will begin to use it. When you put it away, it will go back to regular control.

Because of this, I figure there will be an "entry" point into major Motion Plus sword battles. You'll probably still be able to do the casual wagging of the remote to cut grass as you run, or to hit a two-hit enemy. Then, if you're entering battle with a larger enemy, you will be able to use the motion plus.

I'm not too sure right now if I like this idea. I really liked the fighting style in TP, and had a great time with it. I'm not too sure I want to evolve beyond it yet. I know it was essentially the same as it was when they started Z-targeting in OoT, but it just felt polished.

I don't doubt Miyamoto and his decisions though. If he thinks this will work, then I'll bank on him having the right concepts. If he really can't get it working to his liking, he won't allow the game to release. Sure, he's had some failures, most recently WiiMusic, but that was no flaw of the controls. So, as long as the controls work, and the gameplay is as solid as previous Zelda titles, then I'll be on board to give it a try. I wasn't fond of the idea of waggling my Wiimote to slash my sword in TP, and now I find it boring to go back to a button press, so I'm sure I'll warm up to it.

Regardless, I hope they bring Bow & Arrow action into the 1st person as they have in the past. The Resort version seems to work well, and it feels good. Swordplay can stay in 3rd person with some 1:1 controls. I still think there should be button press (or motion cued) events like the hidden skills in TP. So, at a prompt, you might have to swoop the remote in a 180 arc to start the move or something, then the game follows through with a Quicktime action.

I think they'll add boomerang actions as well, like the frisbee in Resort. It'd be neat to actually get velocity behind it depending how you throw it. They could also include variations on the above with Deku Sticks, or the slingshot.

I just think it would be hilarious to bring back the spinner, and to get the balance board involved. Imagine shifting your balance to guide it around? Then you'd stand on your tiptoes to jump it off rails or something. I don't own the board though, so maybe I don't want it to head this way.

 

[Steve]

I was very disappointed with Twilight Princess's control scheme, so I'm hoping the utilization of WiiMotion Plus will make it alot better this time around. I haven't played Wii Sports Resort, so I've yet to experience it for myself, though I have heard positive feedback from it. If it does end up being a failing combat system like TP's was, then I hope they have GCN Controller compatibility, as I found myself using that after having to use the gruesome Wii controls.

 

[basement24]

If it does end up being a failing combat system like TP's was, then I hope they have GCN Controller compatibility

Unfortunately, that won't be the case it seems. As it stands right now, it will most likely be a Wii Motion Plus game only, meaning you will have to buy it to play the game, or you won't play the game at all. This seems to be the case with any game that uses the peripheral right now.

It's really too bad in a way, because I think if a motion can't be as good or better than a button press, then it shouldn't be included at all. I really do enjoy a lot of the Wii controls when they are done correctly. I think this far into the system the novelty's worn off though, and sometimes I just want to sit with my hands and arms still, and just tap a button or two.

 

[Steve]

Unfortunately, that won't be the case it seems. As it stands right now, it will most likely be a Wii Motion Plus game only, meaning you will have to buy it to play the game, or you won't play the game at all. This seems to be the case with any game that uses the peripheral right now.

It's really too bad in a way, because I think if a motion can't be as good or better than a button press, then it shouldn't be included at all. I really do enjoy a lot of the Wii controls when they are done correctly. I think this far into the system the novelty's worn off though, and sometimes I just want to sit with my hands and arms still, and just tap a button or two.

It's always in the realm of possibility, because I believe Nintendo realizes that not all players will want to go out and buy WiiMotion Plus even for Zelda. The reason the whole game was flipped in the first place in Twilight Princess, was because it was last minute when they decided to release it on the Wii. However, if Nintendo started the implementation of left-handed and GCN controls beforehand, then it's possible they only needed to program in a left handed Link.

 

[knowlee]

I think that it will be interesting to see how they do the controls on the new Zelda. I'd like to see how it'd work out and I hope they don't make it feel like they've just been put on there (like I've heard some people say about the Wii version of TP).

I like the idea of the using having things in Zelda being motion-based like the sword and the bow and arrow, but as other people have stated above me, I don't want too much to be motion-based. It would get tiring after a while.

The swordplay I hope will let you feel like you're in the game and that it will feel like you're fighting the enemies and monsters. That's what I think that the swordplay in this new Zelda game should feel like. The same goes for the bow and arrows and any other motion-based weapon and/or item that they put in there.

 

[TVTMaster]

To be honest, I'm worried about the direction Zelda's going. With the talk about the "last Zelda of its kind" and the possibility of MotionPlus exclusivity for Zelda Wii, it seems that the people behind Zelda have abandoned traditional 3D Zelda swordplay.

Think about swordplay in OoT and MM- it was simple in terms of your arsenal, but due to the patterns of the enemies such as Iron Knuckles and Stalfos and Dodongos, it was immensely satisfying to fight such an opponent.
In Wind Waker, swordplay took a further leap- parrying and spin techniques, as well as a more fluid and free attack style, led to intense brawls against swarms of diverse enemies, fighting for your life while keeping yourself safe with items.
Twilight Princess seemed to finally find the perfect balance via Hidden Skills, allowing you a myriad of diverse options for getting past defenses- the Shield Bash, Helm Splitter, Back Slice, and other moves added a never-before-seen diversity to 3D Zelda combat.

Now think of the current trend- the gimmick of MotionPlus may be a natural fit for some series, but I don't believe Zelda is one of them. 1:1 swordplay is almost inherently a difficult and imprecise method of combat, unless you happen to be a fencer or kendo expert. Combat in 3D Zelda has been a thrilling mix of the use of tools and reliable sword swings to cut through enemies in an immensely satisfying way.
1:1 swordplay, on the other hand, requires an entirely different look at combat. Z-targeting can't ensure a straight strike if you can slip the wrong way, and no enemy can react in a planned way to every unique strike.
Now, this may seem like an opportunity for the Zelda team to create complex and diverse enemies with fiendishly crafty attack and defense patterns, leading to climactic fights and unbelievably immersive bouts, but there are a number of reasons why this is highly impractical.

a) 1:1 swordplay implies a first person view, as controlling a third-person character from the first person is highly awkward in terms of control. First-person combat would severely limit melee options and totally eliminate the frantic struggles against hordes of creatures such as in Wind Waker.
b) The first alternative to this would be to implement an uncontrollable camera- fixed in place to stand behind Link at all times. This would naturally make seeing anything behind you difficult, and mess with the exploration element of Zelda games in general.
c) The final alternative is to make 1:1 largely pointless, and simply have any strike count as a blow against the enemy, regardless of its appearance or shape. Given Zelda Wii's apparent realistic style, it wouldn't do for such swings to have to take into account enemy shields and armor- the camera would make things too imprecise. As such, enemies would have very little variety beyond "use item X first" or "attack from behind"

(c) strikes me as the most likely, as Nintendo is clinging to its new mantra- "appeal to the casual gamer". The casual gamer often doesn't care about how intense a fight is- they want to kill stuff and get stuff as fast as they can.

Twilight Princess just built a solid foundation from which to build swordplay upon- contextual skills that must be activated through the use of other offensive options, leading to "combat trees" of attacks and skills that made each fight unique. I think that this basic concept needs to be built upon- perhaps dual-wielding? Multiple weapons with their own skills and properties? (One of my own ideas could implement 1:1 in a limited form by using a dojo or menu to preset and customize your basic attack combos, allowing you to use your own moves repeatedly.)
Unfortunately (and ironically), the complexity of 1:1 swordplay is most likely going to radically dumb down Zelda combat in order to facilitate an unneeded gimmick in an appeal to the casual crowd.

Yay.

*whistles*

In other news, I'd like to hear how TP had a "failing combat system". With all of the options you had and the varied patterns of the enemies, it was easily one of the most immersive and intense combat systems in Zelda.

 

[Steve]

*whistles*

In other news, I'd like to hear how TP had a "failing combat system". With all of the options you had and the varied patterns of the enemies, it was easily one of the most immersive and intense combat systems in Zelda.

In other news, I'd like to know why you'd care about my opinion.

If you must know, it wasn't so much the combat system, but mostly the Wii controls. However, that does play into the system, which is what caused it to fail. I think you're talking about Twilight Princess in general, I'm simply referring to the Wii version, because yes the GCN version by far had the best. Swings of the Wiimote were highly off, I'd swing the Wii mote right, and it'd go in the other direction. Fishing was way too sensitive, and my fishing rod would often rail in when I didn't want to, etc.

 

[TVTMaster]

Actually, Wii TP's sword controls aren't actually linked to your movements. Any swipe-like move of the controller triggers Link's default sword attack, and that has a set direction- I think it's a down-left swing. Yes, the Wii controls were tacked on, which means that they simply replaced the B button with the swipe, and set items to the D-pad and active B. It actually works well since you don't need to worry about positioning your fingers to switch between AB and AXY. If you were expecting motion control rather than a new input, that's not what it has.
Fishing was, yes, imprecise and a chore, but really fishing didn't need too much precision beyond input delay when reeling.

Essentially, while I do want to see motion control used, especially in things like the bow and boomerang, I don't want to see the sword combat messed with. They just laid the groundwork for an immersive combat system, and I don't want to see pointless motion controls replacing the achievements they've made.

As for the other news, I was just curious what reasons anyone would have to criticize TP's combat, not you specifically.

 

[Steve]

Actually, Wii TP's sword controls aren't actually linked to your movements. Any swipe-like move of the controller triggers Link's default sword attack, and that has a set direction- I think it's a down-left swing. Yes, the Wii controls were tacked on, which means that they simply replaced the B button with the swipe, and set items to the D-pad and active B. It actually works well since you don't need to worry about positioning your fingers to switch between AB and AXY. If you were expecting motion control rather than a new input, that's not what it has.
Fishing was, yes, imprecise and a chore, but really fishing didn't need too much precision beyond input delay when reeling.

Essentially, while I do want to see motion control used, especially in things like the bow and boomerang, I don't want to see the sword combat messed with. They just laid the groundwork for an immersive combat system, and I don't want to see pointless motion controls replacing the achievements they've made.

As for the other news, I was just curious what reasons anyone would have to criticize TP's combat, not you specifically.

That's my point, I want to see this new be be linked to your movements, and I think it will make the gameplay much more enjoyable. At least that way, it makes you feel like you're actually playing the game, so it would certainly make up for the last game. And sorry, I though you were singling me out.

 

[TVTMaster]

I actually think it would be a good idea to implement some motion control in Zelda, but I don't want to see it have any effect on gameplay beyond maybe which way an enemy goes flying on the kill blow. They won't make it really complex, since that'd alienate their casual market, but if they make it just too complex, they'd sacrifice the third person (or at least camera control). Making it so that Link does mimic your actions on normal swipes, but not messing with the camera just to show you that that's what he's doing would be a bad move.

Essentially, adding motion-control aesthetic touches and maybe minor gameplay effects would definitely enhance gameplay, as long as the main formula expands on the TP skill system and the motion control doesn't mess with the camera.