Philosophy Thread (serious replies only)

[DARK MASTER]

I want to discuss with friends and acquaintances our foundation. Theists and/or religious people are welcomed, but honestly this pertains more to atheists.

Definition:
I would like to use my college definition which was "thinking about thinking" but if you have another definition that's fine. Just let people know.

Guidelines:
Jokes are fine, but please do not troll.
Try your best to be intellectually honest.
Be smart, but try to keep things easy to understand.
Try to avoid absolutist language. Say you think something might be the case, rather than it is.

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In the beginning I would like to avoid giving my personal beliefs. This thread isn't about how I feel, but I want to be part of the discussion.

Let's start with...

Do we know anything exists?

 

[Beauts]

Well according to Descartes, we know we exist because we can think and be aware of ourselves and our external experiences. This is a natural conclusion to draw that the rest of the world must exist too. He explains the thought process of this in Mediations. I personally agree for the same reasons, sans the God element of the argument (an omnipotent, omni-benevolent god wouldn't fool us)

 

[snakeoiltanker]

I think I am confused about the question. I have heard u mention this before, and agree that nothing is 100% certain. However what I don't know is what are u implying. Are you asking whether we exsist in a real world that we can physically see or live? Or are we living in some sort of matrix type existence, where only our minds are part of this artificial world?

Cuz in order to answer this with belief or logic, I need to know exactly what u mean. I have always been confused by this question, which is why I have never chose to engage in this discussion with you. So now that you have created this thread which is long past due, I am ready to discuss.

 

[DARK MASTER]

I think I am confused about the question. I have heard u mention this before, and agree that nothing is 100% certain. However what I don't know is what are u implying. Are you asking whether we exsist in a real world that we can physically see or live? Or are we living in some sort of matrix type existence, where only our minds are part of this artificial world?

Cuz in order to answer this with belief or logic, I need to know exactly what u mean. I have always been confused by this question, which is why I have never chose to engage in this discussion with you. So now that you have created this thread which is long past due, I am ready to discuss.

You're right, I was too unclear. I edited my question.

 

[Batman]

Depends very much on how you view metaphysics and epistemology.

I personally believe Descartes' cogito ergo sum, or I think therefore I am, is pretty much foundational and irrefutable. Or at the very least some iteration of this idea must necessarily be true and irrefutable. Whatever "I" am, I do think and experience, and my thoughts and experiences are certainly something, and something is necessarily not nothing; not non-existence. Therefore, at some level, I exist, and I know it.

I think that is probably the only thing, as the ability to reason currently stands in human beings, that we can be 100% absolutely confident of. As to knowing things beyond our own existence, I don't think we can refute hard solipsism or whatever and be as sure about the existence of our environment as we can be about ourselves as it's pretty much impossible to truly break the barrier of our internal qualia and look at things outside our own minds.

Nevertheless, everything we experience does indeed suggest that there is an external world, that our internal minds are merely a part of this external world and bound to it, and that there is no reason to fundamentally just assume our senses are playing elaborate tricks on us. In other words, we have to do the best with what we've got, and for me, that's enough to be pretty confident about other truth and knowledge claims.

We may not fundamentally be able to 100% prove that other minds besides our own are real and that our environment would exist without us being conscious or that its details are real in some way beyond us, but everything we're made of sure does waggle its eyebrows suggestively and gesture furtively while mouthing 'look over there, it's not just you dumbass'.

I stole and rearranged that last part from XKCD.

 

[snakeoiltanker]

You're right, I was too unclear. I edited my question.

Your edit still does not make it easier to answer. So I'm guessing I will have to pass on this discussion, as it is too deep for my simple mind.

 

[Jamie]

As everyone else said, we only know that we exist. For everything else, there are no truths, we can't be sure of anything except for our own existence. Still doesn't stop me from believing it. It'd be pretty wild if I was imagining all of this ****.

I also suggest you remove the question from the OP as everyone is going to answer that question despite the conversation maybe moving forward.

 

[DARK MASTER]

I am experiencing difficulty accepting Descartes' proposition with 100% certainty. It seems almost as close as we can currently get to maximal certainty. My issue is I’m not certain. I could imagine there is something I cannot describe which could be making us feel that way. I cannot even speak about this without being extremely vague (not claiming that is, because I don't know, hence lack of certainty). All of this makes me believe the closest we can get to maximal certainty is that we cannot be certain of anything.

Right now I view our foundation like this, lack of certainty, we exist, logical absolutes, and our subjective experiences to some degree are real. Thoughts?

 

[DARK MASTER]

I also suggest you remove the question from the OP as everyone is going to answer that question despite the conversation maybe moving forward.

Do you think I should not even have a question in my OP moving forward, or just simply change it once the conversation progresses?

 

[Jamie]

Do you think I should not even have a question in my OP moving forward, or just simply change it once the conversation progresses?

I'd say don't have it, maybe note somewhere in the OP that you had that first question so people understand what's going on, but otherwise maybe keep it in the same structure as the Religion Debate Thread.

 

[DARK MASTER]

So I'm guessing I will have to pass on this discussion, as it is too deep for my simple mind.

Regarding this I don't have absolute certainty, but you might learn something...

 

[snakeoiltanker]

Regarding this I don't have absolute certainty, but you might learn something...

I will read on, bit don't know that I can contribute without making myself look stupid. I got to lay low for a while after last night.

 

[Rosa Luxemburg]

I think it's an entirely irrelevant point of discussion that serves no purpose in my intellectual growth. Do we exist? Are we all in a dream? Are we a single universe within an even larger universe? Are we pawns in a war between The Elder Ones and The Outer Gods? Are we hooked up into a matrix? Anything is possible but I see no reason to spend time wondering what "the truth" of existence is or whatever.

Other questions like "does free will exist?" or (as an irreligious person) "Does God exist?" "Is X's interpretation of the afterlife correct?" I also find fairly pointless to discuss. Unless I'm drinking with some friends and we decide to step into some goofy deep conversation.

Otherwise I think we're better off spending any sort of philosophizing on coherent things. Economy, oppression, power dynamics, critique on culture, etc.

 

[snakeoiltanker]

I think it's an entirely irrelevant point of discussion that serves no purpose in my intellectual growth. Do we exist? Are we all in a dream? Are we a single universe within an even larger universe? Are we pawns in a war between The Elder Ones and The Outer Gods? Are we hooked up into a matrix? Anything is possible but I see no reason to spend time wondering what "the truth" of existence is or whatever.

Other questions like "does free will exist?" or (as an irreligious person) "Does God exist?" "Is X's interpretation of the afterlife correct?" I also find fairly pointless to discuss. Unless I'm drinking with some friends and we decide to step into some goofy deep conversation.

Otherwise I think we're better off spending any sort of philosophizing on coherent things. Economy, oppression, power dynamics, critique on culture, etc.

Dude, just... Go. Be gone. No one cares what u think. Lol my god.

 

[DARK MASTER]

Rosa Luxemburg, I think what we're discussing helps you have a good foundation and teaches you to think better.