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Official Suggestions Thread

Emma

Eye See You
Site Staff
Joined
Nov 28, 2008
Location
Vegas
An issue that was briefly touched on previously, but hasn't really been given much attention is that of unlocking previously locked threads. This has long been an issue, but more recently has become more apparent again. Essentially, the issue is that of a thread being locked for some reason, and subsequently it is shown that the reason for the thread lock is either invalid, or the thread could - after some time interval - be unlocked (e.g., in the case of, say, an MD thread getting heated, a thread could be unlocked after a one week cool off period). If it can be demonstrated that a locked thread need no longer be locked, it should be unlocked.

This of course would not apply to all locked threads, thus the stipulation of only unlocking threads that can be shown to be invalidly locked, or that no longer need to be locked because there has been a period of time passed and the issue that caused the lock is died down. Thus, I suggest a policy of unlocking threads that were locked preemptively, or for a similar reason that has been shown to not be valid, and threads that have been locked for a period of time and in which there has been a time for the heated discussion to subside. Implementation of this policy would allow more chance for continued discussion in threads that may become heated, and also provide a means to restore a thread that has been preemptively or otherwise invalidly locked.
I'd also say it should extend to everything it can. Including thread, thread post, blog, and blog comment deletions where ever possible. Afraid I don't know if it is with blogs and blog comments. If it's not, at least an apology for doing it instead of sweeping it under the rug. Also reversal of infractions and bans that shouldn't have happened. Besides a few rare cases, I haven't seen much more than reducing ban times even if the ban was never warranted.

While we're on the topic of excessiveness, I think we should look at infractions. First of all, there's some that are not really necessary or should be changed:

  • Failure to Use Spoiler Tag to Hide Spoiler Content (0 points)
    You DO NOT need an infraction to exist as a warning for something that is not a big deal. Just talk to them one-on-one when they do it. Don't use this waste of an infraction.​
  • Poor Posting Quality (2 points)
    Really? It shouldn't be punishable to be a bad poster. If something is really bad, you can talk to them. But being bad at it shouldn't be punished like that.​
  • Posting Off-Topic (3 points)
    While yes this can be a problem with threads, what is "off topic" is very subjective and usually is up to the discretion of the mod. It's badly abusable.​
  • Mini-Modding (3 points)
    This one just screams of egomania. What's the big deal about pointing out things? It takes workload off the mods. The only reason for this to exist is ego, or a sadistic need to punish people for bypassing authority. It shouldn't be there.​
  • Signature Rule Violation (3 points)
    This is not really a big deal. Signatures get huge now anyway and mods don't seem to mind too much. And if a signature is a problem, so what? If it's really bothersome, talk to them about it. Anything legitimately very bad with a signature, like content or something, would more appropriately fall under another infraction.​
  • Inappropriate Use of Blogs (3 points)
    Anything of worth in this infraction is redundant because it overlaps other infractions. And some things, like repeated blog postings, no one seems to care about anyway.​
  • Inappropriate Language 1st Degree (6 points), and 2nd Degree (3 points)
    Okay, you know how much I am against censorship. And I know I'm never going to convince you to drop it completely. So... compromise? I think it's a bit excessive to have two variations. I think they should be merged into one with just three points and call it good.​
  • Inappropriate User Profile (3 points):
    Same with blogs. Anything worth keeping in this category is redundant because other infractions cover it. And the rest is not a big deal.​
  • Insulting/Flaming Other Members 1st Degree (15 points), 2nd Degree (10 points), 3rd Degree (5 points)
    This one I think... needs to be renamed. Attacking other users maybe? Something less ambiguous. Because currently this one is being applied to anyone that just disagrees with someone else and is going way too far. But other than that that's my only issue with this one. Maybe something pointing out personal attacks that continue after being warned.​
  • Trolling 1st Degree (15 points), 2nd Degree (8 points)
    Similar issue as with the last one, I think this gets abused badly. And it also should be specified that is a last resort. And I think it should be made mandatory that the mods discuss issuing it and coming to a consensus before applying it.​

Also... I think the name change limit should be removed. Come on, we all know that it is not enforced or even remembered. If someone asks for one too much, is it that hard to say no? It should be left up to best judgement instead of a hard limit (which is completely ignored anyway).

Hmm... what else. The stuff about necromancy should be completely removed. It is not, and never has been a legitimate problem and it shouldn't even be mentioned. No one cares if a thread is old and is revived. It's notm and never has been an issue in any reality.

Also a clarification on how long infractions last? I think the announcement said it was extended, but that announcement is expired and gone and the rule page just says a month. I think it should only be a month. Two if you think it really has to be longer. I recall.... six months? I might be mistake. Or was it a year? Either of those numbers are way too long though. A lot can change in six months.

One last thing, the part about tolerating beliefs should be removed. I get that there is good intentions, but... it is just WAY too problematic to work in practice. When you go out and use mod authority to protect one side's beliefs from being insulted, untolerated, etc. You are in fact being insulting and intolerant of the other side's beliefs. You can't just not offend everyone. It should be changed to being respectful to the person. But understanding that not everyone is going to agree and have the same beliefs so you should not assume people are being hostile if they are being critical of your beliefs. Because you're doing the exact thing you accused them of when you try to get them in trouble for it. You're telling them that your beliefs are more important than theirs. When someone says they don't agree with your beliefs, and you feel offended by that, keep in mind that they are probably just as offended by what your beliefs contain. So don't just think about yourself. It is okay to feel offended if someone does not agree with you. But do not assume that automatically means they're trying to attack you. Be mindful of their own feelings and not just your own.

Well you get the idea. A lot of the problems we have had relate to mods trying futilely to punish people for offending other people. You can't stop people from being offended. It just can't ever work. Everything offends someone, somewhere. You need some common sense and mutual respect instead of telling people to shut up if they don't agree with you.


And.... okay, I'll stop. I might have more later. But I'm going on too long as it is.
 

Sydney

The Good Samaritan
Joined
Mar 20, 2012
Location
Canberra, Australia
  • Failure to Use Spoiler Tag to Hide Spoiler Content (0 points)
    You DO NOT need an infraction to exist as a warning for something that is not a big deal. Just talk to them one-on-one when they do it. Don't use this waste of an infraction.​
  • Poor Posting Quality (2 points)
    Really? It shouldn't be punishable to be a bad poster. If something is really bad, you can talk to them. But being bad at it shouldn't be punished like that.​
  • Posting Off-Topic (3 points)
    While yes this can be a problem with threads, what is "off topic" is very subjective and usually is up to the discretion of the mod. It's badly abusable.​
  • Mini-Modding (3 points)
    This one just screams of egomania. What's the big deal about pointing out things? It takes workload off the mods. The only reason for this to exist is ego, or a sadistic need to punish people for bypassing authority. It shouldn't be there.​
  • Signature Rule Violation (3 points)
    This is not really a big deal. Signatures get huge now anyway and mods don't seem to mind too much. And if a signature is a problem, so what? If it's really bothersome, talk to them about it. Anything legitimately very bad with a signature, like content or something, would more appropriately fall under another infraction.​
  • Inappropriate Use of Blogs (3 points)
    Anything of worth in this infraction is redundant because it overlaps other infractions. And some things, like repeated blog postings, no one seems to care about anyway.​
  • Inappropriate Language 1st Degree (6 points), and 2nd Degree (3 points)
    Okay, you know how much I am against censorship. And I know I'm never going to convince you to drop it completely. So... compromise? I think it's a bit excessive to have two variations. I think they should be merged into one with just three points and call it good.​
  • Inappropriate User Profile (3 points):
    Same with blogs. Anything worth keeping in this category is redundant because other infractions cover it. And the rest is not a big deal.​
  • Insulting/Flaming Other Members 1st Degree (15 points), 2nd Degree (10 points), 3rd Degree (5 points)
    This one I think... needs to be renamed. Attacking other users maybe? Something less ambiguous. Because currently this one is being applied to anyone that just disagrees with someone else and is going way too far. But other than that that's my only issue with this one. Maybe something pointing out personal attacks that continue after being warned.​
  • Trolling 1st Degree (15 points), 2nd Degree (8 points)
    Similar issue as with the last one, I think this gets abused badly. And it also should be specified that is a last resort. And I think it should be made mandatory that the mods discuss issuing it and coming to a consensus before applying it.​
I have no idea what the hell happened in the past two years where all of these rules are now suddenly redundant. If not all, then certainly most of them (that's what I'm getting from this). I have infractions from moderators for poor posting quality, signature violations, etc. But now no one seems to care. Why? Because. We. Are. LAZY! No one bloody bothers to enforce the rules anymore, so even though having a signature that's 300px rather than 250px hurts nobody, people will never learn. All those signature violations people have previously received are meaningless. People post one-liners and give spammy responses all the time, and yet we hardly see them complain about how they've received an infraction (lets be honest, they would so ***** about getting an infraction about something that's clearly their fault).

Keep the rules, but start freaking enforcing them. You're not a moderator if you're not doing your job. We have you guys to enforce the rules and keep the forums clean and safe, not to sit around, do nothing, and look pretty.
 
Joined
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So basically, no rules(?)...
If you'd had bothered to read for comprehension at all, you'd have realized that the point is not to get rid of rules but amend some of them. The suggestions over the last few posts have been about reforming some of the current rules and the systems used to enforce them, such as reforming infractions. Of course, this is assuming you didn't just intend to make a smartass remark without actually considering any of the suggestions.
 

Locke

Hegemon
Site Staff
Joined
Nov 24, 2009
Location
Redmond, Washington
Is there anyway to make it so we could mark all of our subscribed threads as "read" without marking all of the threads on the forum as "read"? Because sometimes when I close the browser and then reopen it the threads that I read a minute ago will return to their "unread" state even though nobody posted in them in between me reading them originally and closing the browser and then me reopening the my browser. Or is this whole issue just something on my end that I could easily fix?
That's probably an issue with your cookies. Make sure that you have them enabled and they're being properly set by the forum. While your session is active, all your read data is stored as cookies. When your session expires, everything is marked read. I think what's happening is your session is still active but restarting your browser loses those read cookies.

  • Failure to Use Spoiler Tag to Hide Spoiler Content (0 points)
    You DO NOT need an infraction to exist as a warning for something that is not a big deal. Just talk to them one-on-one when they do it. Don't use this waste of an infraction.​
I can agree with that assessment. What about the rare case of members ignoring such a warning and/or deliberately spoiling things? Should that be considered trolling? This sort of issue comes up with anything that's against the rules but "not a big deal."

  • Poor Posting Quality (2 points)
    Really? It shouldn't be punishable to be a bad poster. If something is really bad, you can talk to them. But being bad at it shouldn't be punished like that.​
This isn't for spelling/grammar issues or anything like that. It's for posts whose content detracts from the quality of the thread. We've been very lenient about this for a while, allowing extremely short posts that don't really add anything. We generally only use this infraction if we notice a specific member consistently put forth no effort at all with their posts.

  • Posting Off-Topic (3 points)
    While yes this can be a problem with threads, what is "off topic" is very subjective and usually is up to the discretion of the mod. It's badly abusable.​
I disagree. It's only a little subjective. And that's why he have human mods, not bots. (well...besides that bots wouldn't be able to understand what the topic was in the first place)

  • Mini-Modding (3 points)
    This one just screams of egomania. What's the big deal about pointing out things? It takes workload off the mods. The only reason for this to exist is ego, or a sadistic need to punish people for bypassing authority. It shouldn't be there.​
I don't like this infraction either. The mod team and administration are quite different from what they were when this was added, so once I get a good idea of what the team thinks about it, I'll decide whether to go with the majority or use my authority to push my preference. (hopefully both)

  • Signature Rule Violation (3 points)
    This is not really a big deal. Signatures get huge now anyway and mods don't seem to mind too much. And if a signature is a problem, so what? If it's really bothersome, talk to them about it. Anything legitimately very bad with a signature, like content or something, would more appropriately fall under another infraction.​
We do talk to them about it. I think a big part of the problem here is that we just send a PM and then forget about it without following up with the infraction if they don't fix the sig. It's a similar situation with the spoiler infraction. It's not one we like to give out, but then what do we do when they don't listen to us.

Also... I think the name change limit should be removed. Come on, we all know that it is not enforced or even remembered. If someone asks for one too much, is it that hard to say no? It should be left up to best judgement instead of a hard limit (which is completely ignored anyway).
I actually do enforce this rule very strictly, and I take note of members who had their name changed. I've even been asking for confirmation before going through with it. If it's left up to judgement then we get "this member got X changes you only let me have X-1 it's not fair!" This is an area where subjectivity, which I gather you don't like, can easily be avoided.
 
Last edited:

Locke

Hegemon
Site Staff
Joined
Nov 24, 2009
Location
Redmond, Washington
Okay, this issue has been in the suggestions thread, and it's been completely ignored by the moderators.
I don't like the ideas of a public place for complaints about moderator actions [...]. Issues should be taken up with the mods or me privately. I wish more people would do this, and do it respectfully.
I didn't ignore it, I disagreed with it.

Regardless, I'm going to allow this thread to exist for now, under two conditions:

1. Basically remove your first paragraph. As I said in the suggestions thread, it's really hard to respond to private feedback if we don't get any private feedback due to people convincing everyone we wouldn't respond to it. When you do this, I'll stick this thread and edit this post accordingly. I'm sorry if this feels like censorship, but I hope you'll understand that it's in everyone's best interest to stop spreading those rumors (even if they were true at one time). You've made your point and we're trying to fix it, but the act of making your point makes that difficult for us.

2. I edited the text in the infraction PM to suggest reporting the PM to send your complaint to the mod team. I've required the mods to bring these reports up in our Skype group to gather opinions that might have been missed when the original infraction was given, or that might have changed given the member's argument. The condition here is that members do this first, and only if they don't get a response they resort to this thread.

Ultimately I'm hoping to repair the trust this forum used to have several years ago, and we won't need this thread anymore. This thread may (or may not) help get us there. I fully intend to kill this thread at some point. Best case, nobody needs to post in it and I'll just unstick it and let it die. Worst case, it's abused as a fruitless outlet of discontent with final decisions even after careful consideration and I have to lock it.
 
Joined
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Gender
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I didn't ignore it, I disagreed with it.

Regardless, I'm going to allow this thread to exist for now, under two conditions:

1. Basically remove your first paragraph. As I said in the suggestions thread, it's really hard to respond to private feedback if we don't get any private feedback due to people convincing everyone we wouldn't respond to it. When you do this, I'll stick this thread and edit this post accordingly. I'm sorry if this feels like censorship, but I hope you'll understand that it's in everyone's best interest to stop spreading those rumors (even if they were true at one time). You've made your point and we're trying to fix it, but the act of making your point makes that difficult for us.
.
As was made abundantly clear in the suggestions thread, you have gotten private feedback. The entire reason this has all become public is because the private feedback was ignored, or we were told to, in so many words, go away, drop it. Many, many times, members have tried to contact you and other staff about these issues, and they were ignored. PMs are seemingly ignored, private IMs go unacknowledged. The only way we've been able to make any progress communication-wise is via public forums like the suggestions thread, and threads like this one.

Also,

You've made your point and we're trying to fix it, but the act of making your point makes that difficult for us.
How do you figure that? If you're trying to fix it, then you should welcome communication. This thread, and our posts in the suggestions thread, have simply tried to facilitate communication. I don't understand how that'd make it difficult.

Locke said:
Ultimately I'm hoping to repair the trust this forum used to have several years ago, and we won't need this thread anymore. This thread may (or may not) help get us there. I fully intend to kill this thread at some point. Best case, nobody needs to post in it and I'll just unstick it and let it die. Worst case, it's abused as a fruitless outlet of discontent with final decisions even after careful consideration and I have to lock it.
It's good that you hope to do that, but you must also realize that all of these posts -- this thread included -- are part of an attempt to work toward fixing some of the more glaring problems. All of these posts are an attempt at better communication, something that has been a major problem over the past two years or so. Very often, attempts at communication in private were met with either silence, or hostility. In public, there's been more success, and that is the reason for more posts like this thread.
 

Emma

Eye See You
Site Staff
Joined
Nov 28, 2008
Location
Vegas
1. Basically remove your first paragraph. As I said in the suggestions thread, it's really hard to respond to private feedback if we don't get any private feedback due to people convincing everyone we wouldn't respond to it. When you do this, I'll stick this thread and edit this post accordingly. I'm sorry if this feels like censorship, but I hope you'll understand that it's in everyone's best interest to stop spreading those rumors (even if they were true at one time). You've made your point and we're trying to fix it, but the act of making your point makes that difficult for us.
I understand it's embarrassing, but you really did do this. It's not a "rumor." It happened. Trying to cover it up is just going to make people think it even more. You need to stop thinking it's going to fix your problems. It's not. When someone accuses you of something, telling them to not talk about it is only ever going to confirm it. So please, be mature about this and let it go. You really did ignore things. All the denials in the world isn't going to change the past. But we can make things better from here out. That's what this thread is about.

I got to be honest here. It looks like you are trying to protect your ego. You are trying really hard to stop anything that hurts the mods' image. But you're doing exactly that by doing this. Whether you wish to admit it or not, the mods, and you yourself have been ignoring things. Not only that, but complained about it. I can't speak for everyone else, but I do have my own case. A couple years ago I complained to you yourself about the conduct of another mod. Yes you were not yet a forum admin yet. But we were working together on the wiki and you were a forum mod. Not only did you completely ignore me, but I am entirely aware that you complained to Mases about it. He told me. So please do not deny it. Others have said that they got just as much out of you and a few others recently up to when this was brought up in the suggestions thread.

This is going on, and telling us to stop talking about is just going to make people that much more convinced of it. So stop. Please. Part of being in a leadership role is that people won't like what you do and will say things you don't like. Telling them to stop saying it is never a good idea. It will not accomplish anything. Every issue that's bothering you just gets worse. So it won't help.

Bottom line: this an entirely unacceptable "request". So no.

2. I edited the text in the infraction PM to suggest reporting the PM to send your complaint to the mod team. I've required the mods to bring these reports up in our Skype group to gather opinions that might have been missed when the original infraction was given, or that might have changed given the member's argument. The condition here is that members do this first, and only if they don't get a response they resort to this this thread.
t.
Again you are ignoring what is going on. A lot of people are afraid to talk to the mods because of things they've done. Excessive infractions, censorship, ignoring communication. I think we're making positive improvement. But you need to stop denying there was a communication problem. Because you can't expect trust to be rebuilt overnight and that is only hurting any trust you are regaining. It's going to take a awhile. The suggestion for what mods should do is good, but it needs more. Infractions, for things besides stuff like spambots and very severe, time-sensitive vandalism, infractions should be discussed before being given out. Hopefully avoiding problems before they have to even be an issue. A note here about asking to try private first would be acceptable. But it should not be held against them if they still don't trust they'll be heard. People who abuse it will be obvious and they should be dealt with individually instead of locking the thread and having everyone else suffer. I thought we JUST went through this? About how it's wrong to lock a thread just because one person is being a problem.

With all the issues we've had, we have never had this kind of success since it has been handled in a public arena. If you just keep it internal, you can agree that anything is fair and can't be accountable for it. If it is public, everyone knows what happened and judges it and you can't get away with just doing what you want. If a person does take it privately, and they get back a "no, too bad" that was even decided with that whole group, and they still feel it is unfair, they should still be able to post here. There have been many decisions the mods decided to do that were never fair. Like my ban a couple years ago. The recent locking of that thread in MD and the subsequent unfair infractions handed out to those who tried to continue it. Public accountability is important because it gets things done.
 
Joined
Feb 23, 2011
If you'd had bothered to read for comprehension at all, you'd have realized that the point is not to get rid of rules but amend some of them. The suggestions over the last few posts have been about reforming some of the current rules and the systems used to enforce them, such as reforming infractions. Of course, this is assuming you didn't just intend to make a smartass remark without actually considering any of the suggestions.
Now listen here, you, I read the damned post—in fact, I'm probably among the few people on here who reads every post I come across, so get off my back with that crap. Alls I know is there is a group of folks on here who shall go unnamed who're looking to turn the forums upside-down, and that post seems to be contributing to it (be it intentional or otherwise). Granted, there are a couple of things that need to be looked into and updated, but if ****'s not going exactly the way you or anyone else wants it to then why not quit ****ing complaining and create your own board with your own damn no-rules system. All this **** that's been happening lately is nothing but bad publicity. Know what, why am I even defending myself? The hell with forum politics...

Respond as you wish to this post; I'm done, so you'll basically be talking to yourself from here on out...
 
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Now listen here, you, I read the damned post—in fact, I'm probably among the few people on here who reads every post I come across, so get off my back with that crap. Alls I know is there is a group of folks on here who shall go unnamed who're looking to turn the forums upside-down, and that post seems to be contributing to it (be it intentional or otherwise). Granted, there are a couple of things that need to be looked into and updated, but if ****'s not going exactly the way you or anyone else wants it to then why not quit ****ing complaining and create your own board with your own damn no-rules system. All this **** that's been happening lately is nothing but bad publicity. Know what, why am I even defending myself? The hell with forum politics...
All it is, is people trying to improve things. Make things better for everyone. Progress is actually being made on that goal. And then, people like you come along and **** on everything we're doing, offering passive-aggressive suggestions, and now, just outright hostility. Good job, really Knightly behavior. It's evident as well that you have no real argument, given your reliance on straw-men like "no-rules system". Also, "bad publicity"? ********. Even if that were the case, it doesn't matter, because ignoring the problems and letting them be swept under the rug is worse. If anything, it's people like you who are giving bad publicity.

Lastly, I find it ironic that you seem to have such a problem with a "no-rule" system as you falsely label our suggestions. Given that you yourself are not one for abiding by rules, and have consistently been, to put it bluntly, a complete ******* to many members, and yet seem to take the moral high-ground when it comes to actual rules. You're a troll, plain and simple, and it's pretty sad that no one else seems to want to say it. But it needs to be said. If people remain silent, even when they admit in private that members like you are nothing but trolls, then nothing will change.


Wolf Sage said:
And nothing of value was lost.
 

Vanessa28

Angel of Darkness
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Angel of Darkness
Guys let's not do name calling please. Everybody has the right to post suggestions and everybody has the right to agree or disagree with offered suggestions. But don't call each other names or attack each other. That's not cool and not a suggestion :P
 
Joined
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All it is, is people trying to improve things. Make things better for everyone. Progress is actually being made on that goal. And then, people like you come along and **** on everything we're doing, offering passive-aggressive suggestions, and now, just outright hostility. Good job, really Knightly behavior. It's evident as well that you have no real argument, given your reliance on straw-men like "no-rules system". Also, "bad publicity"? ********. Even if that were the case, it doesn't matter, because ignoring the problems and letting them be swept under the rug is worse. If anything, it's people like you who are giving bad publicity.

Lastly, I find it ironic that you seem to have such a problem with a "no-rule" system as you falsely label our suggestions. Given that you yourself are not one for abiding by rules, and have consistently been, to put it bluntly, a complete ******* to many members, and yet seem to take the moral high-ground when it comes to actual rules. You're a troll, plain and simple, and it's pretty sad that no one else seems to want to say it. But it needs to be said. If people remain silent, even when they admit in private that members like you are nothing but trolls, then nothing will change.




And nothing of value was lost.
Troll? Are you kidding me right now? Now that's an insult if I've ever seen one. Seriously, I neither have the time nor the need to troll anyone. I bet you can't even provide an example of my "supposed trolling." And quit using groupthink to get people on your side; who's this "our" you keep bringing up? I called no names. And please, quit trying to demonize the knights every chance you get; I'm your target. I'll quit the knights before I let the whole group slandered by a handful of disgruntled members like you.

Okay, Vanessa, I'm done. I'll reopen my VMs/PMs if anyone has anything else to say to me.
 

Cfrock

Keep it strong
Staff member
ZD Champion
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Location
Liverpool, England
I have a suggestion. Can we have a sub-forum in the Mature Discussion board specifically for threads relating to religions? Many members avoid what is easily one of the most interesting boards on the forum because of the abundance of threads which are critical of religion. This is because they often devolve into petty arguments and assaults (real or perceived) on individual people. Tempers flare up on a regular basis.

Separating the board with a sub-forum still allows for the discussion of topics regarding religions but makes it easier for some members to avoid them. This will (hopefully) encourage those members who avoid it because of these threads to get involved with the Mature Discussion board again, safe in the knowledge that they won't be tempted to involve themselves in discussions they don't want to.

If you want to go the whole hog, why not make a couple more sub-forums? Have a Mature Discussion General and then a separate sub-forum for Politics, Sexuality, and Religion.
 

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