Game Thread MS Paint Mafia U-Pick Edition [Day 5]

[HangryHangryHippo]

I immediately privately claimed to both OG and Numbers how the Thing works, I would've had no time to invent any sort of elaborate lie regardless of alignment since. This is true because in the case of being mafia, if Killjoy's plan were to backstab the scum team he would not confide the reason why to the scumbuds. And as Town there's simply no reason for me to lie about it.

This isn't inherently true. If you were buddies with KJ you would have the remainder of D3 after KJ's failed snipe to discuss what he was trying to do and craft a plan moving forward. See the thing about what me and KoD have been saying is that we aren't accusing you of anything specific, we are just refuting your claims that you have to be towncore and shouldn't be looked at further. Because 1) that's a very untowny position to take without a mechanical clear and 2) doesn't have any basis besides people just taking your word for it.

 

[lain]

ok i finished writing the post sry about that. i accidentally clicked post instead of insert quotes.

i went through ex's recent posts and tried to list the reasons he could seem suspicious to me. the first & biggest reason is that all his arguments to defend himself have relied on evidence that he or scum had just created. which makes me feel like he/scum could have done all those things because he was planning to use them to defend himself. it takes the strength out of the arguments.

the 2nd reason is that some of his arguments have seemed contradictory and when that was pointed out he kind of just glossed over it and kept claiming the same things. the first one was the mechanical thing w/ "the thing" where he claimed town would win if scum got it and were the last one, but also wanted to be protected so scum wouldn't kill him. the 2nd one was where he said he would be worried about a cop so he didn't kill rubik but had also claimed that he's a godfather. his reaction to them being pointed out was more suspicious to me than the actual contradictions.

the 3rd reason is that he seems more focused on his own survival/winning than town's win condition. which he has just outright stated.

the 4th reason which i thought of while i was writing this:
killjoy probably knew bonus votes wouldn't hammer because it said that in his role pm. so killjoy probably put a 'hammer' vote onto ex knowing it wouldn't actually hammer, in a situation where it already seemed like killjoy might be voted out. why would he have done that if ex was town. it just gave people another reason to vote him. then he said the thing about ex and kod right after he was voted out. so maybe defending the remaining mafia was on his mind. which could explain why he made the vote on ex. it's kind of wifom ig but thinking kj was trying to hammer ex is def the more obvious immediate reaction. kj even said afterwards that he shot himself in the foot. it could be a reach, but it said it in his role pm. and in the actual rules.

----

i think how this started is hhh threatened to shoot ex in a dm purportedly to put pressure on him. he started posting in thread w/ this argument to not kill him.

if I were mafia it'd be of town's interest to keep me alive since I'd be able to just shoot any scumbud or bus them and win with town due to survivor's thing kicking in

starting your defense that you're town with "if i were mafia it'd be of town's interest to keep me alive" seems like a bit of a red flag to me tbh.

I'm not, but if I entertain your ridiculous idea of me being scum then it would require another buddy or else game would've ended due to the new survivor wincon kicking in

this is only supported by things you have just claimed about the mechanics of "the thing". and that you even got "the thing".

if you're town and you shoot me we literally lose

everyone could have said this so it isn't a very good defense. but he was trying to scare hhh into not shooting him in the night ig. so its whatever. not ai.

since I'm the obvious target I'd hope somebody from town would protect me regardless of alignment

he starts to change his argument around here, to saying that the fact that he claimed "the thing" means he's town. if you're town why would you bring it up at night if you think it made you the obvious target? it can go both ways imo.

Why would I bring getting Thinged up if I was scum instead of staying quiet and changing the kill onto a scumbud last second or just staying quiet and outting them at the start of the next Day??

he brings "the thing" up, then says because he did that he can't be scum. the fact that he thinks it could be used to defend him means there's a reason to being it up if he's scum.
(also, maybe he just didn't realize the thing about killing the other scum until it was too late. or its a lie.)

no, he's saying he's gonna shoot me because he thinks I'm mafia which is absurd considering how killjoy tried to hammer me and gave that whole bunch of nonsense at the end of the day

Again, I don't see why I would have any reason to come forward and tell you and other players I got Thing'ed if not to be honest about it. You're pushing a bizarre, unrelated, agenda about me being scumbuds with killjoy when he literally tried to hammer me and using the whole Thing thing as a distraction to how insanely bad your argument is, and it is extremely annoying.

And how exactly shooting me would help eliminate threats to town? Like, ffs, Killjoy literally tried to hammer me on LyLo and made that handful of absurd remarks before of his flip

the killjoy thing has the same issue. scum did it, then ex uses it as a defense. if it could be used as a defense for ex that's a reason for killjoy to have done it. if we're assuming ex is scum.

that ex keeps bringing this up as a defense makes me think of something else too. he's the only player who has used what killjoy did here to try to make himself look like town. killjoy didn't say that for no reason, he was probably trying to protect the remaining scum somehow. and ex is the only one who's using it to try to protect himself. their ideas/plans seem like they could be aligned w/ this. which could line up with them both being scum.

kod pointed out that it said in killjoy's role pm that bonus votes didn't count towards hammer. it's probably more likely kj knew that wouldn't hammer, so the fact that he did it anyway means something too. why would he pretend to try to hammer someone who wasn't scum?

then rubik died.

anyway the point is, I knew his role was sort of a messenger, so if I were mafia I wouldn't have shot him instead of worrying about a cop (which again is reinforced by the Thing's natural godfather modifier) which would very likely not be on the claimed miller

rubik claimed miller
thing has godfather modifier
both of these impliy that there's an alignment cop

i'm saying that if I were I mafia would be worried about an alignment cop instead of shooting the miller
not just because of a mafia result on them, but because in 3 night the cop would be able to have multiple results that could out the entire entire mafia team via PoE

you use rubik's death as an argument why you aren't scum. i think this makes a little sense, but the same argument i've been making still could apply. scum did it, then you used it to defend yourself right after. that's a reason for you to have done it if you were scum. if you didn't know who the cop was, maybe you thought a nightkill that you knew would help you is better than one that only has a chance to. you could have also been worried about a protective role. or didn't actually think there was a cop.

i guess you might not have known rubik would still be alive to confirm what you said though. @Rubik did you tell ex about this before you got killed? that you wouldn't die when you are killed?

----

the main issue i have with ex's argument is that all the evidence he used to defend himself were either things he just did or scum just did. his thing claim, killjoy's 'hammer' on him and the dying words post, and rubik being nightkilled. it just looks to me like it could have been manufactured.

killjoy's fake hammer thing seems big to me also. i only realized about that while i was writing this.

 

[HangryHangryHippo]

@KoD, be completely honest. Did you kill amber?

 

[HangryHangryHippo]

On second thought I like this question better, can you give me a run down of your actions and results?

@KingofDominaria

 

[Rubik]

ok i finished writing the post sry about that. i accidentally clicked post instead of insert quotes.

i went through ex's recent posts and tried to list the reasons he could seem suspicious to me. the first & biggest reason is that all his arguments to defend himself have relied on evidence that he or scum had just created. which makes me feel like he/scum could have done all those things because he was planning to use them to defend himself. it takes the strength out of the arguments.

the 2nd reason is that some of his arguments have seemed contradictory and when that was pointed out he kind of just glossed over it and kept claiming the same things. the first one was the mechanical thing w/ "the thing" where he claimed town would win if scum got it and were the last one, but also wanted to be protected so scum wouldn't kill him. the 2nd one was where he said he would be worried about a cop so he didn't kill rubik but had also claimed that he's a godfather. his reaction to them being pointed out was more suspicious to me than the actual contradictions.

the 3rd reason is that he seems more focused on his own survival/winning than town's win condition. which he has just outright stated.

the 4th reason which i thought of while i was writing this:
killjoy probably knew bonus votes wouldn't hammer because it said that in his role pm. so killjoy probably put a 'hammer' vote onto ex knowing it wouldn't actually hammer, in a situation where it already seemed like killjoy might be voted out. why would he have done that if ex was town. it just gave people another reason to vote him. then he said the thing about ex and kod right after he was voted out. so maybe defending the remaining mafia was on his mind. which could explain why he made the vote on ex. it's kind of wifom ig but thinking kj was trying to hammer ex is def the more obvious immediate reaction. kj even said afterwards that he shot himself in the foot. it could be a reach, but it said it in his role pm. and in the actual rules.

----

i think how this started is hhh threatened to shoot ex in a dm purportedly to put pressure on him. he started posting in thread w/ this argument to not kill him.

starting your defense that you're town with "if i were mafia it'd be of town's interest to keep me alive" seems like a bit of a red flag to me tbh.

this is only supported by things you have just claimed about the mechanics of "the thing". and that you even got "the thing".

everyone could have said this so it isn't a very good defense. but he was trying to scare hhh into not shooting him in the night ig. so its whatever. not ai.

he starts to change his argument around here, to saying that the fact that he claimed "the thing" means he's town. if you're town why would you bring it up at night if you think it made you the obvious target? it can go both ways imo.

he brings "the thing" up, then says because he did that he can't be scum. the fact that he thinks it could be used to defend him means there's a reason to being it up if he's scum.
(also, maybe he just didn't realize the thing about killing the other scum until it was too late. or its a lie.)



the killjoy thing has the same issue. scum did it, then ex uses it as a defense. if it could be used as a defense for ex that's a reason for killjoy to have done it. if we're assuming ex is scum.

that ex keeps bringing this up as a defense makes me think of something else too. he's the only player who has used what killjoy did here to try to make himself look like town. killjoy didn't say that for no reason, he was probably trying to protect the remaining scum somehow. and ex is the only one who's using it to try to protect himself. their ideas/plans seem like they could be aligned w/ this. which could line up with them both being scum.

kod pointed out that it said in killjoy's role pm that bonus votes didn't count towards hammer. it's probably more likely kj knew that wouldn't hammer, so the fact that he did it anyway means something too. why would he pretend to try to hammer someone who wasn't scum?

then rubik died.


you use rubik's death as an argument why you aren't scum. i think this makes a little sense, but the same argument i've been making still could apply. scum did it, then you used it to defend yourself right after. that's a reason for you to have done it if you were scum. if you didn't know who the cop was, maybe you thought a nightkill that you knew would help you is better than one that only has a chance to. you could have also been worried about a protective role. or didn't actually think there was a cop.

i guess you might not have known rubik would still be alive to confirm what you said though. @Rubik did you tell ex about this before you got killed? that you wouldn't die when you are killed?

----

the main issue i have with ex's argument is that all the evidence he used to defend himself were either things he just did or scum just did. his thing claim, killjoy's 'hammer' on him and the dying words post, and rubik being nightkilled. it just looks to me like it could have been manufactured.

killjoy's fake hammer thing seems big to me also. i only realized about that while i was writing this.

I told ex that I would be able to post in the game and use my ability while dead, that I I could send 2000+ word messages every night, and that I couldn't be protected.

I don't think I mentioned that votes would be worth extra on myself.

I told ex this because I probably largely think of them as pro-town.

 

[ExLight]

I told ex that I would be able to post in the game and use my ability while dead, that I I could send 2000+ word messages every night, and that I couldn't be protected.

I know this sounds awfully convenient but I actually missed that part in the message

 

[ExLight]

I know this sounds awfully convenient but I actually missed that part in the message

erh the continuing playing while dead and the not being protected
I clearly noticed the length of the message having a ton of wikipedia fluff about brazil

 

[Morbid Minish]

I keep going back and forth.

Ex could be scum cause his abilities seem like they could be scum sided. And his character certainly looks like it could be scum. It's terminator like in appearance. I feel like he's been a bit more worried about making himself look good and mechanics than anything else.

KoD seems to be untargetable. You have KJ saying that they were scum buddies before his flip. Which could be a way to throw us off his actual scumbud or could be like a double bluff to make us think that he wouldn't throw his actual scumbud under the bus when he really did. Plus you have Amber dying in the middle of the day and that does feel like something KoD might have a hand in. Lol. However, Numbers claims that Kod claimed 3rd party to him. And I can kinda see that with what little I know of his role. He apparently can invest people to get info about their roles, and he can't be targeted(?), which would align pretty well with a 3rd party cause they would need a little extra something to help them survive.

One of the things that has pinged me about Numbers the most is his reaction to KJ's reaction to Amber dying. He called it out saying it sounded forced. And that's exactly something I would do as a scumbud. I would point out something that's actually true (my scumbud would know that he killed Amber and thus the reaction is fake), to get a bit of cred for being right about it. He just reminds me a bit of how I play as scum this game. I could also see his role working pretty well with KJ's as scum. KJ had a pretty decent arsenal, and if Numbers is truthful about how his role works, he would be kinda like a goon I feel where he's sort of "powerless" except he gains a different ability each night. Sometimes they could be useful for scum and sometimes they might not be.


I think I'm leaning a bit more towards Numbers at the moment.

 

[KingofDominaria]

@ HHH:

Sure can on both parts.

First and foremost, no, I did not kill Amber. Given what happened, it is clear KJ killed Amber via his ability that allowed a day kill without ending the day.

Second,

I targeted, in order, you (HHH) on N1, Amber on N2, and Cin Min on N3 twice.

 

[KingofDominaria]

@ Cin Min:

You are correct mostly.

And part of my confidence in HHH comes from having targeted him N1. I was able to conclusively determine that HHH is not a threat, and have treated him as such since then. He's not wrong in that I am sheeping him, but it's not just the standard sheep. I actually believe what it is I am saying, and it is a matter of fact when it comes to what has been discussed about Ex.

Given your own role, which doesn't look like a scum role given just two mafia though maybe it could be with more mafia members, I'm inclined to think that the remaining scum is just Ex. The only other person to suspect is just lain, but I'd attribute his carefulness in approaching this stage of the game with dutiful towny-ness as opposed to overly cautious scum.

 

[KingofDominaria]

Plus you have Amber dying in the middle of the day and that does feel like something KoD might have a hand in. Lol.

She would've died D1/N1. Hands down.

 

[lain]

if we're at 2T-2M-1I or 3T-2M we lose if anyone that isn't mafia dies. If HHH were town and really had a way to shoot me that would cause me, as Town, to lose, which is why I was extremely annoyed about.

yeah i get that. i don't think you being annoyed was ai.

Numbers and KoD accusations are inconsistent and keep flipflopping in a manner that at one time they need me to be lying about what The Thing does and at another it requires me to be telling the truth about it.

i think they were trying to point out inconsistencies in what you were saying. and showing that you looked bad from multiple perspectives. but i could have misread.

What we know if I'm telling the truth about The Thing (I am): it was impossible for a 2-scum team consisting of Killjoy and me to exist, since upon receiving it I'd've won with Town unless there was a hostile indept around.

why didn't killjoy just kill you/the other scum then, when he had "the thing"?

i don't like this argument, that you got a role last night that makes it impossible for you to be scum (if its 2 scum), but the only evidence of that is your word. would rag even put a role like that into the game? like, when someone who has it gets killed it goes to who killed them. scum are obviously going to be doing the most killing. so its probably fairly likely that a scum would end up with it by the end of the game. and what, it turns it into a game of which scum can nightkill the others first? that just doesnt make sense to me. from a game design perspective it takes away town and mafia's power and turns it into kind of a game of chance. one where town also always wins? it's just which mafia member kills the others and make them lose that's in question? i don't think rag would do that in a game that's supposed to have a focus on reading instead of mechanics.

I have no way to prove that I'm telling the truth about how it works, and I do rely on your trust as players. I am already repeating myself as to why some of the accusations make no sense. And that's mainly what I can hope for. There's nothing I can say that can counter an empty-handed "ur lying" because that's such a **** argument that there's no way to defend against it?

yes but your argument is mostly also to just accept that you're telling the truth. we'd just have to trust you, about something that seems a bit far-fetched. and people aren't just saying you're lying, there are inconsistencies and issues with what you've claimed that people have pointed out.

----
since you're trying to make a mechanical argument, maybe i could try to approach it that way too.

to me, from what you've claimed it seems like the options are

• you're town and telling the truth about "the thing"
• you're scum and not telling the truth about "the thing"
• you're scum and telling the truth about "the thing" and there's a hostile 3p.

i don't have a big reason to think you in particular aren't scum. i can't use "the thing" as a reason here, because that is what i am trying to decide about. that would make it a circular argument. your claim only means that one of these things need to be true for you to be scum:

• you're lying about "the thing"
• or there's a hostile 3p & rag put a role like that into the game & you got it somehow

but you can only be town if you're telling the truth about "the thing". which relies on all of these also being true:

• rag put a role like that into the game
• the mafia chose not to nightkill you even though you implied before night ended that they would win if they did
• killjoy didn't kill the other scum or try to get them voted out even though, if your claim is true, he would have won if he did
• you got "the thing" from killjoy. (which i think is like a 3/40 chance)
  • killjoy had "the thing" when he died.

it's not that this means you're mafia. but coming from the perspective of choosing between you and other players, in my mind right now your claim about "the thing" is more a reason to think you're scum than to think you're town.

 

[ExLight]

• the mafia chose not to nightkill you even though you implied before night ended that they would win if they did

I believe I was not the target because me making a fuss in the thread and asking for a Doctor might've intimidated them - they had no kill during N2 and no role flipped to explain the reason why, so it's likely they might be able to get disrupted.

OR they felt like I would be an easy mislynch, specially with the whole fearmongering that OG made about the Thing potentially being hostile.

• killjoy didn't kill the other scum or try to get them voted out even though, if your claim is true, he would have won if he did

If he was the one who killed Amber, which seems likely, he might've gotten from her (I cannot understand why else he would claim to appear as mafia when the thing has a godfather modifier), which would not make a double bussing viable if mafia started with a three players team.
Even if already had it, it's a counterintuitive play and I don't think Killjoy realized it was a possibility.

• you got "the thing" from killjoy. (which i think is like a 3/40 chance)
  • killjoy had "the thing" when he died.

I cannot think of any other way for me to have gotten it considering the wording we've seen on OG's role and what I've seen from it.
I even ask in thread who the **** Rupert was, because the wording of the Thing role implies the first owner had that as their original flavor choice, which didn't see like Killjoy's case.

 

[ExLight]

Ex could be scum cause his abilities seem like they could be scum sided.

making chats with dead/living is scumsided...?

 

[KingofDominaria]

@ lain:

I've already touched upon multiple perspectives previously, but --


Ex is right, much like I already stated when I covered it, that if two remaining scum and The Thing (as a survivor that enables scum to win with the town per Ex's word) works as stated, then Ex claiming to have The Thing would result in game end; however, the only reason for the continuation of the game is due to either what Ex said not being true (The Thing as a survivor) or there being more threats (ie. another mafia member or other such role that is a threat to the town).

Now, I've already exhaustively touched upon these. That said, sure, Ex could be town here and someone else could be mafia (assuming two mafia). Or Ex could be mafia and he lied about how The Thing works (his insistence on not being killed to keep The Thing and putting his survival over winning with town are telling here -- in this scenario it indicates there is more to The Thing than Ex has claimed and it just may be as hostile as OG was worried about). Remember, the only concrete info we have is what was revealed with OG's role.

Interestingly enough, there is a bit of a contradiction with what Ex has claimed vs what we know now that I think about it (even though it should have been obvious).

Here, I'll grab it again for the sake of completeness.

Blow it all to hell [Passive] - If you and the thing are ever the only two players remaining, you automatically activate this ability to kill every living player, resulting in a town victory.

The wording implies a game state where town OG can be one of two remaining players left alive. The other is a player with The Thing.

This makes me wonder if, despite Ex's claim, that survivor is truly what The Thing is about. Yes, the other passive details how The Thing will jump to people pending on who lynched the person or killed the person with it guaranteeing its survival; however, I mean it from a win condition perspective. Is it just survivor status you gain as The Thing and that's it? Or do more abilities come with it to include something hostile?

After all, a game state could exist where OG and other town remain with a town player that has The Thing. Would the game end? Would it continue until The Thing is blown up by OG? Is the game fated to end with The Thing winning due to OG being dead?

Because, and bear with me, if Ex is being honest, then the game should end when all threats to the town are eliminated. Given the above scenario, OG's passive should never come to pass if Ex is being upfront about The Thing.



Suffice to say, the contradiction with Ex seemingly implies that, no, The Thing isn't purely a survivor win con. Or, at the very least, it isn't a non-hostile one.


Mm, but obviously it can't be dealt with either thus making it a perfect tool for distraction as well (except for OG's passive, but that's moot with him gone). So, ignoring The Thing, it comes back to scum hunting to close out the game. And that puts us back into this whole situation with Ex and his insistence on trying to clear himself with events (KJ trying to snipe him) and mechanics (The Thing) even though those are highly debatable.