And I’m not allowed to think those reasons are stupid?
Calling something stupid because it doesn't fit your desires is what makes it subjective. Not to mention you just now lost the argument claiming you know what is "good and bad" for character picks because you are trying to bringing emotional and anecdotal evidence rather than accepting reality.
You act as if there aren’t other Bandai Namco franchises that could’ve been added though. I’m not saying that Tekken is an absolutely garbage series that nobody likes, I’m saying that it’s a series in a genre that really didn’t need any more characters yet. I would’ve been fine with him in a later game, but we just got a ton of other characters.
There isn't but you can't be serious if you are going to tell me that Sakurai, the game developer who loves fighting games who decided to make his own fighting game, wasn't going to pick to Tekken at one point. We saw that in the presentation today that The Lord basically spoke to Sakurai to add a Tekken character in Smash. It's obviously in jest but you can tell that he really wanted to do it. The other Namco games are either anime or niche titles like the Tales Of series. I'm sorry, you can love the Tales games, nothing wrong with them but if you yourself are using a metric to determine what's iconic, then you know if your heart, mind, and soul that anyone from Tekken is more recognizable to the entire gaming audience, not just Nintendo fans compared to something like the Tales Of or Ni No Kuni series.
You are really making him sound like the Mikey Mouse of gaming, which he’s not. He’s definitely the most iconic FF villain, but to call him as iconic as you’re acting like he’s is a huge stretch.
No, that's Mario. However, Sephiroth is still iconic to everyone regardless of your stance of him as a character. He's
the anime swordsman and he has all the tropes of what makes "anime swordsmen/swordfighter" you see today since FF7, whether it's monologues, aesthetics, or power. The anime swordsman trope/meme started with him.
I don’t care what his reasoning behind adding Pyra/Mythra, I still think they’re bad additions since they’re from a relatively unknown franchise that already had a rep as is.
And that's why you are being subjective. You are failing to recognize how much of a struggle that Xenoblade had to go through. You weren't here in 2011, but there was a fan petition known as Operation Rainfall that was trying to get games such as The Last Story, Pandora's Tower, and Xenoblade Chronicles to be localized for the west. The fact that Shulk is even in this game is proof of acknowledgement from Sakurai himself that it's a great franchise and it is. There's so much history for the franchise, again it's not "relatively unknown" when it's been around since 2002.
Byleth isn’t a legacy character. FE is a series that did incredibly poorly up until 2012, and even then it still had 7 characters. Hell, Famicom wars came first, and up until recently the “wars” series sold nearly as well, and was generally reviewed better than FE. If it weren’t for Melee, Fire Emblem would be nothing more than a footnote in gaming history.
Byleth is a legacy character, again through association of Fire Emblem. If you are going to say that Banjo with 4 games (B&K1 and 2, Nuts and Bolts and the GBA port of B&K but I have inkling you don't want to remind yourself of Nuts and Bolts despite it selling over a million copies) is legacy, then Fire Emblem with 16 games is 4x the legacy. Same thing with Joker. He may have only had 2-4 games by the time he was announced/revealed for Smash, but Persona and SMT overall have a deep legacy that changed the RPG franchise because it was one of the first in the genre. If you don't understand, then take a look at my
friend's video she made criticizing the issue of Nin10doland's video of "The Problem with Ultimate's DLC" which honestly sounds very similar to your stance at the moment. It's 2 hours long and if you don't feel like watching, that's why I'm here discussing this with you.
Fire Emblem changes its protags all the time like every other JRPG franchise. You also forget that even though Nintendo isn't creating the game, they still call the shouts. If they want to promote Three Houses, they can because it's their game. It happened with Ike for Brawl since Radiant Dawn just recently came out on the Wii. It happened with Lucina and Robin when Awakening was out for a year. They did it again with Corrin who was just about their EN release on February 2016. And they did it again for Byleth to close out the 2010 decade.
But I want to buy it. I want it to be a good character so I can play it. “Don’t buy it” is by far the dumbest argument anyone can make about this.
But if you want to buy it, swallow your own pride and accept it already. Plus we, and this is speaking in general, don't know if he is good. I already know based on options and what he can he's going to be good for me and anyone who loves Tekken/fighting games because that's what we want in the first place. You don't have to spend hours on the internet trying to justify your dissatisfaction with character choices. Most people simply go: "Who cares? Not buying."
i never claimed that I knew what was good and bad for smash, at least not from a financial standpoint. I did say that I get to chose what I think is good and bad, and that everyone does. You’re pretending I’m trying to enforce something because you can’t handle the fact that not everyone likes your little Tekken character.
Exactly, so that's why I'm asking what makes a "good" or "bad" character, which will be answered in a few quotes from now.
It’s almost as if there’s more than one way to make a game iconic.
Exactly.
Like I said, sales are an indicator, that doesn’t mean they’re the final say. If you want proof that Steve is a more iconic character than Link, literally look anywhere on the internet that isn’t here.
I never denied that Steve is more iconic character than Link, in fact I agree with this point. Minecraft is
the most sold video game of all time. It has printed billions and now is owned by Microsoft. That's the greatest dream any indie developer can ever ask for. I will say this response in particular is moving the goalpost as it was so unnecessary because you're trying to deflect with a statement I didn't bring up in my original statement.
A good character must be (in my opinion, because apparently I need to specify that):
1.From a series that hasn’t had a rep (or at the very least hasn’t had a new rep in a very long time such as Zelda or Sonic)
2.From a series that’s iconic, has had a relatively large impact on the industry, and is still loved by many fans. It’s ok to have a handful of characters break this rule, but overall they need to be rather well known.
3.An important enough character in said series to reasonably be a good representation, though this rule is a little looser than the others.
4.From a series who’s genre isn’t well enough represented in both the newcomer and overall roster of the game.
5.From a video game.
Once again, you don’t have to agree, but I fail to see how this isn’t reasonable.
1. So then what about characters that are currently being represented right now? There's a lot of Nintendo fans who are unironically asking for Dr. Eggman and Waluigi. They are being represented by the Sonic and Mario franchises respectively. Most would argue their inclusion is a good thing and if that's the case, then they definitely count as good choices. In this case Kazuya fits the bill since he's the first Tekken rep.
2. So in that case, Sephiroth and Kazuya are both super iconic as their games have sold millions through the decades and Tekken is currently the best selling 3D fighting game of all time. What more could you ask for?
3. Again, this means that Sephiroth and Kazuya are important seeing that they are main villain and main character respectively within their franchises.
4. I'd argue because there's different styles of games within the RPG and fighting game genre, both still qualify with how vast the scope of RPGs and fighting games. If you say that Tekken is just like Street Fighter, you never touched a fighting game in your life except for Smash and maybe other platform fighters similar to Smash.
5. This should be the first rule.
I usually decide on a case by case basis, but there are a few other characters I think fit the bill better. A few characters that I don’t particularly care for but still think would be good additions are Master Chief, Doom Slayer, another Sonic rep, another Mega Man rep, Bill Rizer, etc. I don’t particularly want them but I still think they would be fitting because they are iconic, while being from genres that aren’t over saturated.
So here's the contradiction. You said it yourself in the last quote that for a character to be "good" they must :
1.From a series that hasn’t had a rep (or at the very least hasn’t had a new rep in a very long time such as Zelda or Sonic)
You're already contradicting yourself since Mega Man was just added from the previous game and now you want a Mega Man rep (which I would be down for since I love Mega Man). This is why I'm so confused. You say one thing and that contradict yourself the next. It makes it inconsistent and muddies the water of what is it that you really want from the DLC. For me, I don't care who is in the game. Do they look cool doing their moves/combos and are they fun? If yes, then I'll try them out for much longer than the usual trial period of a day and that's it.
I don’t have an issue with RPG characters ordinarily, which is why I think Joker and Hero were such amazing additions. I have a problem when a massive chunk of the newcomers have been from a single genre.
If you are talking about newcomers then from the 23 out of 24 known right now, we have:
7/8 RPG characters (Chrom, Incineroar, Joker, Hero, Byleth, Sephiroth, Pyra/Mythra*)
7 Platformer/Metroidvania characters (Daisy, Ridley, King. K Rool, Simon, Richter, Piranha Plant, Banjo & Kazooie)
4 Fighting game/arena fighter/sports characters (Min Min, Ken, Terry, Kazuya)
2 Nth-person shooter characters (Inkling, Dark Samus**)
1 Open-world sandbox character (Steve)
1 Life/social/education simulator (Isabelle)
* = 8 if you count Pyra and Mythra as separate which would equate to 23 characters out of 24. Otherwise it's 22 out of 23 if counting as 1 character.
** = I'm categorizing Dark Samus under Nth-person shooter because she debuted in the Metroid Prime series which is definitely more of a 1st person shooter than a Metroidvania. This is the same reason why Ridley is listed under a Metroidvania character due to have more appearances within the Metroidvania style games within the franchise.
By these numbers, in terms of newcomers, the batch is definitely healthy. At least you have 1/3rd of the newcomers being RPGs which isn't too bad and I think that's a fair balance given the rest of the genres portrayed. I fail to see what's to be upset about when the roster is clearly diverse enough to cater to a bunch of fandoms which is the point of Smash to begin with as more 3rd parties are added.
