Is the downfall the natural timeline?

[Ryuu Kage Desu]

This is a real quantum theory applied to a fictional universe though, and in Zelda it seems only important events are applicable for the theory.

Very true. Although, saying that quantum theory only comes in to play with some games, because it explains something, then ignoring it for other similar situations, is like saying that gravity only matters sometimes. Again I'm fine with the multiverse explanation, if it gets me the dark timeline game for Twilight Princess.

I'll have to take a look at the thread tomorrow, @Moblinking5000. Not much time left tonight.

 

[Mikey the Moblin]

Very true. Although, saying that quantum theory only comes in to play with some games, because it explains something, then ignoring it for other similar situations, is like saying that gravity only matters sometimes. Again I'm fine with the multiverse explanation, if it gets me the dark timeline game for Twilight Princess.

quantum theory doesn't come into play in games that don't have time travel (most of them)

 

[Spiritual Mask Salesman]

Very true. Although, saying that quantum theory only comes in to play with some games, because it explains something, then ignoring it for other similar situations, is like saying that gravity only matters sometimes. Again I'm fine with the multiverse explanation, if it gets me the dark timeline game for Twilight Princess.

I'll have to take a look at the thread tomorrow, @Moblinking5000. Not much time left tonight.

I get your point, but over the course of many games at this point OoT is the only one that was very important to space-time, and this goes back into my point that it was so important, even though it was prevented on the Child Timeline, it's stakes were miraciously recreated because it was something that had to happen. If there is one game besides OoT that could have an alternate timelime it might be Twilight Princess, just because it is that timeline's version of the Triforce showdown that should have happened but didn't.

 

[Ryuu Kage Desu]

quantum theory doesn't come into play in games that don't have time travel (most of them)

That's not how continuity works. If it's a part of the world, it's a part of the world. The main point, about quantum theory is, we don't need it. There are better explanations, which are more consistent.

After looking at the thread, linked by, @Moblinking5000, i can say that it is an interesting idea, @Spiritual Mask Salesman. It even works with my premise here. It is something other than the player failure being the cause. And, as such, we still end up with the downfall timeline being the natural, or prime, or original, timeline.

 

[Uwu_Oocoo2]

So I just had a thought... I'm now not entirely sure that downfall is the natural timeline. Downfall being natural implies no interference, but consider this line from lttp-

"Ganon's wish was to conquer the world. That wish changed the Golden Land to the Dark World."

This Golden Land was later confirmed to be the Sacred Realm. When Link opened the door of time and entered the Sacred realm, Ganondorf also entered, touched the Triforce, and transformed it into the Dark World. Link's actions opening that with the ocarina count as interference, IMO. And thus, it may be the Link you play as. Idk, I'm going back and forth with this one

 

[Spiritual Mask Salesman]

So I just had a thought... I'm now not entirely sure that downfall is the natural timeline. Downfall being natural implies no interference, but consider this line from lttp-

This Golden Land was later confirmed to be the Sacred Realm. When Link opened the door of time and entered the Sacred realm, Ganondorf also entered, touched the Triforce, and transformed it into the Dark World. Link's actions opening that with the ocarina count as interference, IMO. And thus, it may be the Link you play as. Idk, I'm going back and forth with this one

Actually when Zelda tells Link about the Sacred Realm when they are kids she says it was foretold that the Triforce would be touched by someone with an evil heart, and this matches up with claims through OoT that some of its events were predestined. So this wouldn't be interfering with the natural course of events.

 

[Ryuu Kage Desu]

So I just had a thought... I'm now not entirely sure that downfall is the natural timeline. Downfall being natural implies no interference, but consider this line from lttp-

This Golden Land was later confirmed to be the Sacred Realm. When Link opened the door of time and entered the Sacred realm, Ganondorf also entered, touched the Triforce, and transformed it into the Dark World. Link's actions opening that with the ocarina count as interference, IMO. And thus, it may be the Link you play as. Idk, I'm going back and forth with this one

I suppose, the terminology could use a little housekeeping. You do have a point, as to the interference part. Technically the first interfering action was by Dimise, back before Skyward Sword. The interference I was referring to, would be from the time travel shenanigans, be they from Cia, a Triforce wish, or even Raru. Being natural, I should probably indicate the natural course of events, leading from the curse.

 

[Spiritual Mask Salesman]

Technically the first interfering action was by Dimise, back before Skyward Sword.

How is this intereference though? The Hate Curse seems to be some force that is engrained into the fabric of nature. The Japanese text of the dialogue makes it clear Demise didn't make the curse, he was just invoking it, it was something that was already in motion.

 

[Ryuu Kage Desu]

I was actually referring to the backstory, at the beginning, @Spiritual Mask Salesman. Interfering, as @Uwu_Oocoo2 defined it is different from temporal interference (messing with the flow of time).

 

[Spiritual Mask Salesman]

Then what interference is being talked about? @Uwu_Oocoo2 what do you mean by interference?

 

[Uwu_Oocoo2]

Then what interference is being talked about? @Uwu_Oocoo2 what do you mean by interference?

By interference, I think of anything causing it to stray from the natural course of events. For Downfall to be the natural timeline, it implies that the hero was always destined to fail. The natural course of events would be that Link died.
We as the player, at some point bring about that interference, the moment that creates the CT and AT instead of the DT. We will never play as the Link that dies, because we changed something. Something that happened in the player's version of OoT is different than something that happened to the theoretical dead Link, allowing him to live and to create the other two timelines.

I don't know exactly what this point of interference was, but my running theory is that it was Zelda's prophetic vision. Had she not taken matters into her own hands, Link would have never opened the door of time, pulled the master sword, and allowed Ganondorf access to the Sacred Realm and Triforce in the first place. But because he lacked the Master Sword and Triforce of Courage, he inevitably lost that battle. More research is required before I can construct a full hypothesis.
Also, I hope that answered your question

 

[Spiritual Mask Salesman]

By interference, I think of anything causing it to stray from the natural course of events. For Downfall to be the natural timeline, it implies that the hero was always destined to fail. The natural course of events would be that Link died.
We as the player, at some point bring about that interference, the moment that creates the CT and AT instead of the DT. We will never play as the Link that dies, because we changed something. Something that happened in the player's version of OoT is different than something that happened to the theoretical dead Link, allowing him to live and to create the other two timelines.

I don't know exactly what this point of interference was, but my running theory is that it was Zelda's prophetic vision. Had she not taken matters into her own hands, Link would have never opened the door of time, pulled the master sword, and allowed Ganondorf access to the Sacred Realm and Triforce in the first place. But because he lacked the Master Sword and Triforce of Courage, he inevitably lost that battle. More research is required before I can construct a full hypothesis.
Also, I hope that answered your question

Oh, ok, I see your point.

I feel like in order for the downfall timeline to occur it has to lead to the final battle, so opening the door of time, Ganondorf reaching the Sacred Realm, all of this is a natural progression. It all chalks up to Link just dying in the final battle for whatever reason, or dying in Ganon's Tower for some reason, because we know all the sages were awakened and sealed Ganon into the Dark World. There are really only two things I can think of that would prevent Link from winning: either he loses the Master Sword somehow, or he never gets the light arrows. This is some mad stretch theory from me. I'd maybe roll with him never getting the light arrows, but I'm not sure how we could explain this.

Edit: This is rough, my memory on A Link to the Past is hazy, but to kill Ganon you need the silver arrows iirc (they weren't the light arrows). So my proposal is simply what if on the original progression the light arrows didn't exist, making the battle with Ganondorf/Ganon impossible to win? The Hero of Time dies, the Imprisoning War happens, someone develops the silver arrows but there is nobody skilled enough to use them to kill Ganon, which is why sealing him is the only option. Then A Link to the Past happens, the hero of this game kills Ganon and makes his Triforce wish that undoes Ganon's evil on that timeline, but also creates a new timeline where the Hero of Time can beat Ganon. This is done by the Triforce giving someone the idea prior to OoT to make the silver arrows and instilling in them knowledge that if these arrows are not created, it will lead to catastrophe. I'm going to assume that at this period in time they don't have the resources to make the silver arrows, so their compromise is the light arrows, they can at least stun Ganon, but they cannot actually inflict damage on him.

 

[Ryuu Kage Desu]

This is rough, my memory on A Link to the Past is hazy, but to kill Ganon you need the silver arrows iirc (they weren't the light arrows). So my proposal is simply what if on the original progression the light arrows didn't exist, making the battle with Ganondorf/Ganon impossible to win? The Hero of Time dies, the Imprisoning War happens, someone develops the silver arrows but there is nobody skilled enough to use them to kill Ganon, which is why sealing him is the only option. Then A Link to the Past happens, the hero of this game kills Ganon and makes his Triforce wish that undoes Ganon's evil on that timeline, but also creates a new timeline where the Hero of Time can beat Ganon. This is done by the Triforce giving someone the idea prior to OoT to make the silver arrows and instilling in them knowledge that if these arrows are not created, it will lead to catastrophe. I'm going to assume that at this period in time they don't have the resources to make the silver arrows, so their compromise is the light arrows, they can at least stun Ganon, but they cannot actually inflict damage on him.

I think this is a workable theory. It might also help to explain why we don't see timeline splits in Twilight Princess, or Skyward Sword, even though we have time manipulation.

For Downfall to be the natural timeline, it implies that the hero was always destined to fail. The natural course of events would be that Link died.
We as the player, at some point bring about that interference, the moment that creates the CT and AT instead of the DT.

You bring up another good point. It doesn't matter how good your defense is, if all you do is defend against something that can perpetually attack, some hits are eventually going to get through. I can't think of any game where Link, Zelda, or Hyrule in general goes proactive. They are always reactive.

 

[YoungGanon23]

My timeline is this Skyward Ocarina A Link to the past Zelda 2 Zelda 1

 

[YoungGanon23]

In my opinion it is because have the original games