Is the downfall the natural timeline?

[Ryuu Kage Desu]

For starters, the way I make sense of the timeline split is not that the player gets a game over, but that Gannon(dorf) is unaposed. Either the downfall is created when Link is pulled from the flow of time; or what happens when Link doesn't have the ability to defeat him, without time travel. Either way, without time travel interference, he wins.

Then, there's the often disputed idea that Breath of the Wild is part of the Downfall timeline. Officially, all timeliness converge at the same point. Nevertheless, the world as far as I have found, most closely resembles the downfall timeline?

So, as the title suggests, is the natural course of the land, and the actions of Gannon(dorf), lead to a downfall world? If so, are the actions of the hero(s), and possibly the goddesses, mostly an effort to this inevitable outcome?

 

[Moblinking5000]

For starters, the way I make sense of the timeline split is not that the player gets a game over, but that Gannon(dorf) is unaposed. Either the downfall is created when Link is pulled from the flow of time; or what happens when Link doesn't have the ability to defeat him,

The official word is that Link fights Ganon, and is defeated by him.

Officially, all timeliness converge at the same point.

That isn't official.

I definitely see it as a plausible possibility that the DT is the original branch, however.

 

[Ryuu Kage Desu]

The official word is that Link fights Ganon, and is defeated by him.

Yes, the official statement is Link dies. Not only does that not make sense, in the normal way it is used, without an alternative timeline in every game, but Link dies more than just when the player gets a game over. In a case where Link is not pulled out of the flow of time, he just wouldn't be able to do anything against Gannon.

If we need a Link death to be part of the downfall timeline, without creating a new one for every single game, we need something other than a game over. We need a change from the normal flow of time. We need a Link that has no chance of winning.

 

[Moblinking5000]

The Hero of Time's death on the DT is official, whether you like it or not, so it's true. There's plenty of explanations for the third split, like the Triforce Wish theory, the Many Worlds Hypothesis, etc. but the Hero of Time did die on the DT. That's not opinion, but fact.

Also, Ganon(dorf) is spelt with one ''n'' between the ''a'' and ''o''.

 

[Mikey the Moblin]

Also, Ganon(dorf) is spelt with one ''n'' between the ''a'' and ''o''.

UM ACKSHUALLY

 

[Spiritual Mask Salesman]

The original timeline starts with Skyward Sword and ends with Ocarina of Time, nothing after this point is a true unaltered representation of time.

The Adult Timeline would have been if Zelda didn't send Link back in time to relive his childhood, but because she did that timeline is left without a Hero when Ganon breaks his seal, and this wouldn't have happened if that timeline's Hero wasn't off living in an alternate timeline; I'm convinced this caused an issue with the Hero's Spirit reincarnating and it took awhile for the Adult Timeline to eventually reconcile this.

The Child Timeline is obviously an alternate timeline, so it's not a natural progression.

So in this case The Downfall Timeline, being brought about by the Many Worlds Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics, is the most legitimate continuation of time available, even though it is a tangent event, and that in of itself disqualifies it from being a true continuation of the original linear timeline.

 

[Spiritual Mask Salesman]

UM ACKSHUALLY

Ya ya in Japanese they use 2 'n's. NERD!

 

[Ryuu Kage Desu]

Suspect "n"s aside, I think some of you are misunderstanding me. I'm not saying that it's the death that's ruled out by the continuity of the other games, but the game over. Otherwise, where's my Twilight Princess darkest timeline game? I get that the split was inspired by the many worlds interpretation. Unfortunately that raw explanation doesn't work, without alternate timeliness for every game.

What I am saying is that the death is not the game over, which is entirely possible. It is beyond obvious that time travel is not the strongsuit of the series. Heck, the Avengers films are even all over the place. I'm saying that there are two ways, that I can think of to make the official narrative jive with what we actually experience.

1: Link is allowed to fight the G man, gets slaughtered, and someone, like Cia (rage as some of you might), decides that it was a bad thing, and changes the past, so that he fights an adult Link instead. Link still dies, in that timeline, and the timeline splits. [edit for clarity: Link without time travel dies, while Link with time travel creates the game we play, and the timeline splits.]

2: Link is just pulled out of the events, as a natural course of events, leading to the world we see as an adult, which is the downfall timeline. The death, in this case, is less literal, and more like boasting from the winning side. When Link is put back into the chain of events, the Adult timeline is created.

I am leaning more towards the first option. I include them both because the second one still technically works. Either way the downfall would seem to be the natural course of the curse, and the other two timelines are the results from the efforts to avoid that path.

 

[Uwu_Oocoo2]

Suspect "n"s aside, I think some of you are misunderstanding me. I'm not saying that it's the death that's ruled out by the continuity of the other games, but the game over. Otherwise, where's my Twilight Princess darkest timeline game? I get that the split was inspired by the many worlds interpretation. Unfortunately that raw explanation doesn't work, without alternate timeliness for every game.

UMMMMMMMM.... flashbacks anyone???^^^

I think I understand what you're getting at with these points. Had there been ABSOLUTELY NO time interference, Link would've been stuck in Hyrule those seven years, and died facing Ganondorf. But instead, he had to pull the stupid master sword too soon, Zelda had to send him home, and those are our AT and CT. The downfall timeline is literally just what would've naturally happened, had Zelda not taken it upon herself to become a prophet of doom.
I personally love this idea, but i'm a little bit lost by the Link who dies. I mean in OoT you follow the same Link, causing the AT and CT- the world he goes to, and the world he leaves behind. And we see what happens to that Link in the events of MM. So when was he split? Yeah that's what should've happened, but it never actually did. Perhaps the Sages used the Ocarina to send past Zelda a warning vision, once they saw that Link would fail.

 

[Spiritual Mask Salesman]

Suspect "n"s aside, I think some of you are misunderstanding me. I'm not saying that it's the death that's ruled out by the continuity of the other games, but the game over. Otherwise, where's my Twilight Princess darkest timeline game? I get that the split was inspired by the many worlds interpretation. Unfortunately that raw explanation doesn't work, without alternate timeliness for every game.

I think you are taking it a bit too literally, like every little difference that could happen spawns an alternate timeline. Like, Link decided to wear the Goron Tunic when he fought Ganon, but then there is another alternate timeline where he chose to wear the Kokiri Tunic instead. The Many Worlds Interpretation probably wouldn't work this way. Only major events would have alternate timelines.

The argument could be made that every game chronicles a major event, but this isn't necessarily true. There is only one constant on each timeline: the linear timeline before it leads into Ocarina of Time where Link, Zelda, and Ganondorf have a battle over control of the Triforce. This event is destined to occur, and Twilight Princess proves this. The Hero of Time tried to prevent the events of OoT from happening on the Child Timeline, but all he did was make it a new generation's problem. The Triforce splits divinely, forcing a grapple for the Triforce to happen.

The point is, OoT is the only major event in space-time, to the point that on an alternate timeline where it was skipped, it's stakes had to be recreated to correct things on some cosmic level.

Something as inconsequential as what clothing Link wears won't matter, and likewise none of the other games are shown to be as important than OoT, so their outcomes don't actually matter in the grand scheme either.

What I am saying is that the death is not the game over, which is entirely possible. It is beyond obvious that time travel is not the strongsuit of the series. Heck, the Avengers films are even all over the place. I'm saying that there are two ways, that I can think of to make the official narrative jive with what we actually experience.

1: Link is allowed to fight the G man, gets slaughtered, and someone, like Cia (rage as some of you might), decides that it was a bad thing, and changes the past, so that he fights an adult Link instead. Link still dies, in that timeline, and the timeline splits. [edit for clarity: Link without time travel dies, while Link with time travel creates the game we play, and the timeline splits.]

2: Link is just pulled out of the events, as a natural course of events, leading to the world we see as an adult, which is the downfall timeline. The death, in this case, is less literal, and more like boasting from the winning side. When Link is put back into the chain of events, the Adult timeline is created.

I am leaning more towards the first option. I include them both because the second one still technically works. Either way the downfall would seem to be the natural course of the curse, and the other two timelines are the results from the efforts to avoid that path.

The idea that the Downfall Timeline is the original timeline has already been pondered. Honestly the best version of the theory I have seen is @Moblinking5000's theory that A Link to the Past Link's wish on the Triforce to undo the corruption of Ganon was so strong, it created an alternate history where the Hero of Time wins the battle with Ganon in OoT.

 

[Moblinking5000]

Thanks for the shoutout SMS; but truth be told, I'm not the one who originally came up with it, I adopted it because it makes alot of sense IMO. The Triforce Wish Theory has been around for a while. I might've been the first to explain it here, though, I'm not sure.

 

[Uwu_Oocoo2]

It seems as though Nintendo was trying to say that if the player died while fighting Ganondorf, they caused the downfall timeline, but that really doesn't work. I think the basic conclusion here is that the Link in the DT is theoretical, and can never actually be played as.

 

[Ryuu Kage Desu]

I think I remember some of the theory presented by @Moblinking5000. It's been a long time since I have been on here. Feel free to drop a link, so can refresh myself.

I think the basic conclusion here is that the Link in the DT is theoretical, and can never actually be played as.

That's a good way to put it. Be it the power of the Tri-Force or time travel, the hero and the land seem to be doomed without intervention. It even got so bad, before the start of Windwaker, that the land was flooded (or sank, depending on the theorist).

The Many Worlds Interpretation probably wouldn't work this way. Only major events would have alternate timelines.

I don't know. According to the Copenhagen interpretation, all probabilities coexist, until observed. Some physicists state that when this observation occurs, the probability somehow makes a choice, and the one reality keeps on moving. Others tell us that we don't actually see a choice being made, but that the universe splits into each of the possibilities, and there is now a version of you for every different observation, even for something as small as a proton. For this to be consistent with the possibility of failure in every game, we would indeed have an alternate universe for every game.

No, to explain why we have a split here, without splits elsewhere, even Skyward Sword, we need some other explain.

 

[Spiritual Mask Salesman]

I don't know. According to the Copenhagen interpretation, all probabilities coexist, until observed. Some physicists state that when this observation occurs, the probability somehow makes a choice, and the one reality keeps on moving. Others tell us that we don't actually see a choice being made, but that the universe splits into each of the possibilities, and there is now a version of you for every different observation, even for something as small as a proton. For this to be consistent with the possibility of failure in every game, we would indeed have an alternate universe for every game.

No, to explain why we have a split here, without splits elsewhere, even Skyward Sword, we need some other explain.

This is a real quantum theory applied to a fictional universe though, and in Zelda it seems only important events are applicable for the theory.

 

[Moblinking5000]

Here's the explanation I gave for the Triforce Wish Theory: https://zeldadungeon.net/forum/threads/timeline-discussion.69133/page-9

Second to last post on this page, as well as some debate on the next page. Tell me if you have any questions.