Is the downfall the natural timeline?

[Uwu_Oocoo2]

While explaining this theory elsewhere, I realized that while we play through the events of Ocarina of Time, we are basically in the Adult timeline. If this is all correct, Link's failure for the downfall timeline happens before we play. The child timeline is created after the final battle...

Ocarina of Time is an adult timeline game!

Look at it this way; the chain of events that lead up to Wind Waker, and the rest of the adult timeline, are as we see them in Ocarina of Time, including Link being sent away. The events that line up with Ocarina of Time, after Link was sent back, for the child timeline, was vastly different. We don't get to play those events. If the theory about Link having no chance for success, leading to the downfall, leading to an alteration in time, making it so Link can win, back in Ocarina of Time, is correct; we don't play those events either. The story we see, and play, are only part of the adult timeline.

Okay, I think I get it now. While OoT is the start of all three branches, it's set primarily in the AT. Just like what we determined about the player never playing as the Link that dies to start the DT, they aren't in the CT either. Following a linear course of events in OoT, Link pulls the Master Sword, sleeps for 7 years, wakes up and beat Ganon. It's only after all of that Zelda sends him into an alternate timeline where that had never happened. Whenever Link puts the Master back in it's pedestal we know it's taking him back in time, but within the same timeline because the effects are still felt in the future (such as with Guru-Guru). But once Zelda sends him back permanently that the child and adult futures move independently of each other. Up until that point Link was simply going back and forth within one timeline- the timeline that would eventually lead into the events of WW. So while the events of OoT bring about all three branches, the player is specifically playing within the events of the AT. The rest are caused via interference- the CT being Zelda wanting Link to have a childhood and the DT possibly being the ALttP triforce wish.

 

[Spiritual Mask Salesman]

I like the idea of the downfall timeline being the true ending but I'm not sure if it's something that the devs thought of, would be nice to see aonuma's take on the theory
can ZD reach out to someone who speaks english and worked on zelda worldbuilding for a Q&A session maybe? Would be really fun imo

It may have been, since their starting point for OoT was that this game is a prequel to A Link to the Past, but then by the end it turns into it's own thing instead of leading into ALttP.

Up until that point Link was simply going back and forth within one timeline- the timeline that would eventually lead into the events of WW. So while the events of OoT bring about all three branches, the player is specifically playing within the events of the AT. The rest are caused via interference- the CT being Zelda wanting Link to have a childhood and the DT possibly being the ALttP triforce wish.

Well the idea I've been getting at is that the downfall is the only one that happens naturally. Even though Ganondorf is sealed in the adult timeline while it's still part of the linear timeline progression, once Zelda sends Link back it time that creates an alternate adult era progression, so Wind Waker and it's subsequent games take place on a timeline that has been interefered with by time travel too.

 

[Ryuu Kage Desu]

Up until that point Link was simply going back and forth within one timeline- the timeline that would eventually lead into the events of WW. So while the events of OoT bring about all three branches, the player is specifically playing within the events of the AT. The rest are caused via interference- the CT being Zelda wanting Link to have a childhood and the DT possibly being the ALttP triforce wish.

Well the idea I've been getting at is that the downfall is the only one that happens naturally. Even though Ganondorf is sealed in the adult timeline while it's still part of the linear timeline progression, once Zelda sends Link back it time that creates an alternate adult era progression, so Wind Waker and it's subsequent games take place on a timeline that has been interefered with by time travel too.

Both of these ideas work together. And, I like where they are going.

 

[Spiritual Mask Salesman]

Both of these ideas work together. And, I like where they are going.

But they don't, lol. Wind Waker either takes place on an alternate timeline, or it's just the continuation of the linear timeline. I'm saying it is an alternate timeline, it sounds like uwu is saying it isn't.

 

[Ryuu Kage Desu]

But they don't, lol. Wind Waker either takes place on an alternate timeline, or it's just the continuation of the linear timeline. I'm saying it is an alternate timeline, it sounds like uwu is saying it isn't.

That's not the way I read it.

 

[Ryuu Kage Desu]

I went back to give it a second read. If I get UWU correctly, they are saying that the events we get to play in Ocarina of time are altered from the downfall timeline. This means that while Wind Waker naturally comes from the events we play, that was an alteration to begin with. By all means @ Uwu_Oocoo2, correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Uwu_Oocoo2]

I went back to give it a second read. If I get UWU correctly, they are saying that the events we get to play in Ocarina of time are altered from the downfall timeline. This means that while Wind Waker naturally comes from the events we play, that was an alteration to begin with. By all means @ Uwu_Oocoo2, correct me if I am wrong.

Yes, that's exactly right. The timeline was originally downfall, then something interfered causing the adult timeline events (which we play in the game), and at the end of that Link is sent off, starting the CT. So while the natural path would have been downfall, something was altered to crate the adult timeline which we play in and the child timeline was created from that.

 

[Uwu_Oocoo2]

Sorry, double posting, but looking back I think I should put more information here than just restating my claim.

Well the idea I've been getting at is that the downfall is the only one that happens naturally. Even though Ganondorf is sealed in the adult timeline while it's still part of the linear timeline progression, once Zelda sends Link back it time that creates an alternate adult era progression, so Wind Waker and it's subsequent games take place on a timeline that has been interefered with by time travel too.

You're right on downfall being the only one that happens naturally. When a player goes through OoT, they are playing in the world that would later become the world of WW, simply traveling back and forth in time via the master sword but staying within the same timeline. The events that we play in OoT were caused by whatever the interference was after the events of the DT- we know this because Link isn't killed by Ganondorf at the end of the game.
So the interference (maybe triforce wish, we don't know), only created the AT. The CT was created off of that when Zelda sent Link back in time at the end of OoT. This is a different timeline than the one we were playing in all of OoT, we know this because the events of the CT don't affect the world of Wind Waker. So the DT was natural, the AT made off of that, and the CT made off of that. I hope that makes sense, I know it sounds a tad scatterbrained!

 

[Bowsette Plus-Ultra]

I mean, altering the timeline with time travel is inherently unnatural and every timeline has been tainted by it. There isn't a natural timeline now.

 

[Ryuu Kage Desu]

I mean, altering the timeline with time travel is inherently unnatural and every timeline has been tainted by it. There isn't a natural timeline now.

It all depends on how you define natural. If it's an absolute definition, then the only natural timeline would be one where Demise was victorious, and you are absolutely correct. Unfortunately (And I really mean that. I would love to see it in game.), we don't see a timeline split from Skyward Sword. If we say natural from the events of Skyward Sword, then the downfall seems the most natural. However unnatural, the child timeline is the natural result of two alterations compounded together.

 

[Bowsette Plus-Ultra]

It all depends on how you define natural. If it's an absolute definition, then the only natural timeline would be one where Demise was victorious, and you are absolutely correct. Unfortunately (And I really mean that. I would love to see it in game.), we don't see a timeline split from Skyward Sword. If we say natural from the events of Skyward Sword, then the downfall seems the most natural. However unnatural, the child timeline is the natural result of two alterations compounded together.

But any presence of time travel in a timeline makes that timeline "unnatural". Was an element added, removed, or altered through the use of time travel? In my mind, that timeline is no longer "natural".

 

[Mikey the Moblin]

It all depends on how you define natural. If it's an absolute definition, then the only natural timeline would be one where Demise was victorious, and you are absolutely correct. Unfortunately (And I really mean that. I would love to see it in game.), we don't see a timeline split from Skyward Sword. If we say natural from the events of Skyward Sword, then the downfall seems the most natural. However unnatural, the child timeline is the natural result of two alterations compounded together.

Surely skyward sword is predetermined

 

[Ryuu Kage Desu]

But any presence of time travel in a timeline makes that timeline "unnatural". Was an element added, removed, or altered through the use of time travel? In my mind, that timeline is no longer "natural".

From an absolute perspective, you are correct. From a relativistic perspective, after an event, not so much. And, yes the earliest game in the timeline starts with time manipulation, so while you are correct in the absolute definition, the working definition here is more relative.

Surely skyward sword is predetermined

Good point. Though, without the time trave, the entire timeline, as we know it, would be different. It is my headcanon that there is an alternate timeline, split from Skyward Sword; one in which Demise ruled the world.

 

[Mikey the Moblin]

Good point. Though, without the time trave, the entire timeline, as we know it, would be different. It is my headcanon that there is an alternate timeline, split from Skyward Sword; one in which Demise ruled the world

Or perhaps it's more like pokemon super mystery dungeon where the cycle keeps reoccurring until someone can do it right and break the cycle

 

[Ryuu Kage Desu]

Or perhaps it's more like pokemon super mystery dungeon where the cycle keeps reoccurring until someone can do it right and break the cycle

I'm not one for pokemon, but my wife and children are. I think I get what you are getting at, but I don't think it holds up. If Demise would create a cyclical world where defeating it was just a matter of cycles, I doubt the Hylia would go through the trouble of setting up her own time loop, to defeat him.