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Is the downfall the natural timeline?

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Oct 10, 2017
While explaining this theory elsewhere, I realized that while we play through the events of Ocarina of Time, we are basically in the Adult timeline. If this is all correct, Link's failure for the downfall timeline happens before we play. The child timeline is created after the final battle...

Ocarina of Time is an adult timeline game!
 

Spiritual Mask Salesman

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While explaining this theory elsewhere, I realized that while we play through the events of Ocarina of Time, we are basically in the Adult timeline. If this is all correct, Link's failure for the downfall timeline happens before we play. The child timeline is created after the final battle...

Ocarina of Time is an adult timeline game!
Ehh. See if Link had not been sent off to the child timeline than the original timeline that history has occured in up to OoT would still be singular. Link leaving alters the timeline though, so Wind Waker is the result of a change in the fabric of reality, there is no hero so Ganon is close to fulfilling his goals but the great flood happens to stop him temporarily. If Link had not been sent to a different timeline this original reality would not have such an error and it's possible history would have been different. Basically time travel doesn't just cause an alternate timeline of events for the tineline the time traveler is in, the lack of their presence also changes history in the timeline they are from, so it can no longer be considered the same timeline at that point.

OoT is the last game of the original unaltered timeline, Wind Waker is the beginning of the Adult Timeline which is a split.
 

Chevywolf30

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Ehh. See if Link had not been sent off to the child timeline than the original timeline that history has occured in up to OoT would still be singular. Link leaving alters the timeline though, so Wind Waker is the result of a change in the fabric of reality, there is no hero so Ganon is close to fulfilling his goals but the great flood happens to stop him temporarily. If Link had not been sent to a different timeline this original reality would not have such an error and it's possible history would have been different. Basically time travel doesn't just cause an alternate timeline of events for the tineline the time traveler is in, the lack of their presence also changes history in the timeline they are from, so it can no longer be considered the same timeline at that point.

OoT is the last game of the original unaltered timeline, Wind Waker is the beginning of the Adult Timeline which is a split.
I thought the Adult timeline was the Hyrule Zelda sent Link out of? Meaning Ganon was sealed away? There not being a hero seems more true of the downfall timeline.
 

Mikey the Moblin

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I thought the Adult timeline was the Hyrule Zelda sent Link out of? Meaning Ganon was sealed away? There not being a hero seems more true of the downfall timeline.
ganon was sealed, but his seal broke and he escaped
the people waited for the hero to save them, but since zelda sent him back in time he never appeared and the gods were forced to flood the world
 

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I thought the Adult timeline was the Hyrule Zelda sent Link out of? Meaning Ganon was sealed away? There not being a hero seems more true of the downfall timeline.
Well this is where the Official Timeline terms make more sense. OoT is a pre-split game. The Wind Waker is the first game in the Hero Succeeds split, on the adult era, which many people think it isn't a split but it is, the official timeline even acknowledges it as a split because rather than adding WW as a continuation of the pre-split timeline, they separate it as a deviation timeline, which makes sense.

2.png
 
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Ehh. See if Link had not been sent off to the child timeline than the original timeline that history has occured in up to OoT would still be singular. Link leaving alters the timeline though, so Wind Waker is the result of a change in the fabric of reality, there is no hero so Ganon is close to fulfilling his goals but the great flood happens to stop him temporarily. If Link had not been sent to a different timeline this original reality would not have such an error and it's possible history would have been different. Basically time travel doesn't just cause an alternate timeline of events for the tineline the time traveler is in, the lack of their presence also changes history in the timeline they are from, so it can no longer be considered the same timeline at that point.

OoT is the last game of the original unaltered timeline, Wind Waker is the beginning of the Adult Timeline which is a split.

Look at it this way; the chain of events that lead up to Wind Waker, and the rest of the adult timeline, are as we see them in Ocarina of Time, including Link being sent away. The events that line up with Ocarina of Time, after Link was sent back, for the child timeline, was vastly different. We don't get to play those events. If the theory about Link having no chance for success, leading to the downfall, leading to an alteration in time, making it so Link can win, back in Ocarina of Time, is correct; we don't play those events either. The story we see, and play, are only part of the adult timeline.
 

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Look at it this way; the chain of events that lead up to Wind Waker, and the rest of the adult timeline, are as we see them in Ocarina of Time, including Link being sent away. The events that line up with Ocarina of Time, after Link was sent back, for the child timeline, was vastly different. We don't get to play those events. If the theory about Link having no chance for success, leading to the downfall, leading to an alteration in time, making it so Link can win, back in Ocarina of Time, is correct; we don't play those events either. The story we see, and play, are only part of the adult timeline.
When Link beats Ganon in OoT the timeline is still on its original linear path. As soon as Zelda sends him back in time however, she altered that reality, it's no longer the same anymore. This starts a new tangent, technically still the adult era, but it's no longer the same because Link is not present, if you get what I'm saying.
 
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When Link beats Ganon in OoT the timeline is still on its original linear path. As soon as Zelda sends him back in time however, she altered that reality, it's no longer the same anymore. This starts a new tangent, technically still the adult era, but it's no longer the same because Link is not present, if you get what I'm saying.

According to your proposition, which I like:
This is rough, my memory on A Link to the Past is hazy, but to kill Ganon you need the silver arrows iirc (they weren't the light arrows). So my proposal is simply what if on the original progression the light arrows didn't exist, making the battle with Ganondorf/Ganon impossible to win? The Hero of Time dies, the Imprisoning War happens, someone develops the silver arrows but there is nobody skilled enough to use them to kill Ganon, which is why sealing him is the only option. Then A Link to the Past happens, the hero of this game kills Ganon and makes his Triforce wish that undoes Ganon's evil on that timeline, but also creates a new timeline where the Hero of Time can beat Ganon. This is done by the Triforce giving someone the idea prior to OoT to make the silver arrows and instilling in them knowledge that if these arrows are not created, it will lead to catastrophe. I'm going to assume that at this period in time they don't have the resources to make the silver arrows, so their compromise is the light arrows, they can at least stun Ganon, but they cannot actually inflict damage on him.

Ocarina of time starts as the second tangent, and ends with the beginning of the third tangent. Be it this set of events, or a different time manipulation trick somewhere else (there are plenty to choose from), the idea is the same. The downfall, from Ocarina of time, is the result of an unplayed, unwinnable condition.

Perhaps the original plan was to just let the child Link fight Ganondorf, causing the first time alteration to be forcing him to grow older, then the second one being that he was sent back to stay.
 

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When Link beats Ganon in OoT the timeline is still on its original linear path. As soon as Zelda sends him back in time however, she altered that reality, it's no longer the same anymore. This starts a new tangent, technically still the adult era, but it's no longer the same because Link is not present, if you get what I'm saying.
So WW is in the same Hyrule as OoT but a different timeline is what you're saying?
 

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So WW is in the same Hyrule as OoT but a different timeline is what you're saying?
Exactly, if Zelda didn't send Link back in time the original linear timeline would have been able to continue on unaltered, but without Link this changed that timeline's history in an unnatural way, making events after that point take place in a new timeline of its own.

According to your proposition, which I like:


Ocarina of time starts as the second tangent, and ends with the beginning of the third tangent. Be it this set of events, or a different time manipulation trick somewhere else (there are plenty to choose from), the idea is the same. The downfall, from Ocarina of time, is the result of an unplayed, unwinnable condition.

Perhaps the original plan was to just let the child Link fight Ganondorf, causing the first time alteration to be forcing him to grow older, then the second one being that he was sent back to stay.
Oh yeah, with that idea my framework was the linear timeline leads into the downfall, Link's wish on the Triforce in ALttP influences something in the past on the linear timeline that then creates the conditions that allow for Link to win in OoT. But my argument about TWW taking place in a tangent timeline was kind of suspended from the topic of the OP even though it falls back into being relevant because of my earlier posts. The adult and child splits come about from meddling with time, so the downfall split really is the only timeline that formed in a natural way.
 
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Exactly, if Zelda didn't send Link back in time the original linear timeline would have been able to continue on unaltered, but without Link this changed that timeline's history in an unnatural way, making events after that point take place in a new timeline of its own.


Oh yeah, with that idea my framework was the linear timeline leads into the downfall, Link's wish on the Triforce in ALttP influences something in the past on the linear timeline that then creates the conditions that allow for Link to win in OoT. But my argument about TWW taking place in a tangent timeline was kind of suspended from the topic of the OP even though it falls back into being relevant because of my earlier posts.

I feel like we are saying the same thing, in different ways. We need a Doc Brown reference here; hold on.

tumblr_inline_nwkw1roVS31tcnx1k_500.gifv

That's better. Basically, the new revelation about the events we see in Ocarina of Time, is that they only happen that way in the one timeline, the adult timeline.

The adult and child splits come about from meddling with time, so the downfall split really is the only timeline that formed in a natural way.

We seem to be in agreement here.

Most seem to grasp the idea around the Butterfly Effect; in which a small thing (like the flap of a butterfly's wing), given enough time, builds up to something massive (like a hurricane). When applied to time travel, this becomes a small change in the past builds up to a massive change in the future. But, there is an alternate theory (and supposedly some experiments I plan on digging through this weekend) that suggests that given enough time, even the most massive differences in the fabric of time will eventually vanish. If the downfall really is the unaltered timeline, then there is a real world prescience for the other timelines aligning with the natural flow of time.
 

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Most seem to grasp the idea around the Butterfly Effect; in which a small thing (like the flap of a butterfly's wing), given enough time, builds up to something massive (like a hurricane). When applied to time travel, this becomes a small change in the past builds up to a massive change in the future. But, there is an alternate theory (and supposedly some experiments I plan on digging through this weekend) that suggests that given enough time, even the most massive differences in the fabric of time will eventually vanish. If the downfall really is the unaltered timeline, then there is a real world prescience for the other timelines aligning with the natural flow of time.
I'm interested to see what you come up with. Actually if the predestination theory is what you are referencing here, I think it's just more proof pointing at the Downfall Timeline as the original outcome of OoT. Princess Zelda says that someone with an evil heart obtaining the Triforce and taking over the Sacred Realm was "what has been foretold" to happen. The ALttP Triforce wish theory works to trump this, though, since the Triforce can alter reality.
 
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Actually if the predestination theory is what you are referencing here, I think it's just more proof pointing at the Downfall Timeline as the original outcome of OoT.

I don't know if predestination is the right term for the real world part of what I am talking about, but it does fit for the Zeldaverse side. Is that a pre-existing theory? I might not know it by that name.
 

Mikey the Moblin

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I like the idea of the downfall timeline being the true ending but I'm not sure if it's something that the devs thought of, would be nice to see aonuma's take on the theory
can ZD reach out to someone who speaks english and worked on zelda worldbuilding for a Q&A session maybe? Would be really fun imo
 

MapelSerup

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The Downfall split being different from the other splits has always been interesting to me. Whether or not we enter the Downfall timeline has always been an either-or situation (either Link loses, or he doesn't) while the adult/child timelines both exist if Link wins (Link returns to when he was a child AND the wrecked Hyrule timeline continues without him). Also, the fact that the original games are in the Downfall timeline could give some credit to this, as well as the Downfall timeline having the most mainline games. All of these are somewhat arbitrary however, and not solid evidence.
 

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