Is Gannondorf Really Evil?

[collinbollin]

well, while playing through the various games, and learning more and more about Gannondorf it makes me think, who is the real bad guy. well obviously it is Gannondorf, but is he BAD. he and his people were pushed aside from Hyrule into the dessert, he was just envious. so much that he wanted the golden power, that was home to Hyrule. he showed himself to the king, face to face. so he obliviously he tryed to purpose a deal, which was declined. forcing him to declare war, when he touched the triforce. which was only accessible through link taking up the master sword. it split so he could not get his wish but he made it happen, and eventually was corrupted by the power. so he eventually turned evil but his original intentions weren't that horrible

what do you think

PS this is my first topic post so don't get mad if it sucks

 

[PhantomTriforce]

I think "bad guy" and "evil person" are two different things. For example, Bowser from the Mario series is an example of a bad guy. He wants to kidnap peach. He becomes a little more evil in the later games as he wants to destroy Mushroom Kingdom. Ganondorf, however, is an evil person. He not only kidnaps Zelda, but does other things like takes down Hyrule Castle to build his own (OoT), blows up Hyrule Castle (TP), kills the Sages (WW), transforms an entire Sacred land into his evil dimension (ALttP), and so on. So yes, I do think Ganondorf is evil.

 

[collinbollin]

I geuss so I was getting at the fact that the power that he had was evil and not so nessesarily that he was but thanks for the feedback (BTW I am not disagreeing your words I just kinda wanna know how other people feel

 

[PureLocke]

He is very evil, not pure evil as those types of villains are terrible but he is an evil man who, as he gained power, forgot the reason he wanted power in the first place. To quote the guy who played Khan (Star Trek) "Montalbán said in promotional interviews for the film he realized early on in his career that a good villain does not see himself as villainous. The villain may do villainous things, but he feels that he is doing them for righteous reasons."

Edit: also Ganon/Ganondorf doesn't have a three ns.

 

[Miss Moonlight]

I always thought ganondorf was the humanoid part of Ganon, while although "bad" in terms of character, he isn't truly "evil" unless he's in his true Ganon form.

 

[Locke]

"just envious" -- Envy is bad. It also does not justify bad actions.

"he showed himself to the king, face to face. so he obliviously he tryed to purpose a deal" -- pretty sure OoT said or implied that he tricked the king. Deceit is bad.

"which was declined. forcing him to declare war" -- one person's actions do not dictate another's. He went to war on his own accord. War (in this case, as a direct attack out of envy) is bad.

"his original intentions weren't that horrible" -- His original intentions were to steal Hyrule's wind or whatever. Stealing is bad.

"what do you think" -- I think Ganondorf is bad.


This is at risk of turning into 'mature discussion' material, boiling down to "do motivations justify actions?"

 

[Twilipower1984]

evil is a strong word. absolute power corrupts absolutely. if ganondorf had the wisdom and courage he could ascertain all points of the triforce. in order to say that ganondorf was bad you have to determine if he did it out of greed or some inner earning. You would have to understand that nabouru wasn't seeking the triforce nor were any of the other gerudo. You would have to understand the reason for the gerudo exile. if it even was an exile. The amazonian-esque culture of all females and only one male every century or so doesn't leave a lot of room for a male role model. Also, you have to analyze why ganon decided to travel into greater hyrule. I didn't see a single book in the gerudo dessert

 

[DuckNoises]

It depends on what iteration of Ganondorf we are speaking about; in WW, the player feels somewhat sympathetic to Ganondorf, as he has undergone a somewhat ironic tragedy related to what happens in Ocarina of Time. Much of this is reflected in TWW, after he has had a long time to reflect on his actions in Ocarina of Time, and he begins to understand some of his subconscious motives. He is also delusional, to an extent, wherein he cannot accept that he may have done the initial wrong, and refuses to come to terms with what appears to have been guilt that has manifested itself inside of him over a long period of time. It is perhaps his inability to accept this guilt that shows evil is still prevalent within him, but this character development really shows a much more three dimensional character. WW Ganondorf shows that he is much more complex, and possibly remorseful of some of his actions in OoT.
In Ocarina of Time, however, he is merciless, duplicitous, and Machiavellian. Here are some arguments I have made for this in the past:

***Warning! Ocarina of Time Spoilers!***

Ganondorf, already a king, is clearly not satisfied with the level of power he has; so he sets out to pry all the remaining pieces of the Triforce from their live containers to gain the pathway to the gods, and become a god/demigod.
OoT Ganondorf's acts of thievery, mass murder, pillaging, regicide, attempted genocide, and physically warping the landscape are a direct attempt to leave the world in shambles and upset Link and Zelda, so he can lure them to obtain their pieces of the Triforce. OoT Ganondorf really takes this to a personal level, and he ruins Link's childhood, surrounding Link's home with monsters to torment and kill the Kokiri, and murders Zelda's parents and destroys their home. As young Link, Link explores the diverse and beautiful land of Hyrule and meets its inhabitants, before they too, are ripped away from him. Ganondorf's entire plan rests on the notion of tormenting the people of Hyrule until they need a hero to save them. What's truly evil is that becoming the ruler of Hyrule is not even his goal, and that the power of being a tyrant is only a step in his plan to enable him to make people suffer enough for them to lead the hero to him.

Ganondorf was an unrelenting, brutal autocrat; Machiavelli once said that "It's often safer to make someone fear you than it is to make them trust you." That expresses what Ganondorf was doing; anyone that tried to resist faced the threat of utter eradication. Look at what happened to the Gorons; they tried to act against him, and they were almost wiped out in there entirety. He froze Zora's Domain so they couldn't rebel, and made it that if the Kokiri left their homes, they would be killed by monsters while trying to escape. He already massacred half of Castle Town, and the remnants (after moving to Kakariko Village) were pinned inside their homes because Bongo Bongo was escaping. They didn't try to resist because they couldn't; Ganondorf was a constant threat. He'd made it pretty clear that anyone who resisted would be crushed.
There were those that did resist -- the Sages. Each went out of their way to try and solve the crises surrounding their communities, and almost all of them were enveloped in it.

 

[Zemen]

While I do believe that Ganon/dorf is EVIL and BAD, I have argued many times that I believe that WW Ganon/dorf had a more righteous plan in his mind than any other Ganondorf. To me, in WW, it seemed that Ganondorf only did what was necessary to get what he wanted. For instance, once Ganondorf knew that the girls he had kidnapped were not Zelda, he left them alone. Sure, Link had to rescue them, but the point is that Ganondorf didn't kill them or torture them. He was just looking for something and they didn't have it so he just left them alone. Same thing with Link. Ganondorf wanted Link's piece of the Triforce. He literally had no intentions of killing or fighting Link, he just wanted the piece. If you replay WW or watch the final scenes with Link and Ganondorf you'll notice that the only reason they start fighting is because Link attacked him first. Ganondorf did no make the first move and had no intentions of hurting anyone. Also, Ganondorf wanted to bring Hyrule back. The king of red Lions didn't want Hyrule to be resurfaced.

Anyway, Ganondorf is bad, but I believe some versions are way worse than others.

 

[Darknut]

well, while playing through the various games, and learning more and more about Gannondorf it makes me think, who is the real bad guy. well obviously it is Gannondorf, but is he BAD. he and his people were pushed aside from Hyrule into the dessert, he was just envious. so much that he wanted the golden power, that was home to Hyrule. he showed himself to the king, face to face. so he obliviously he tryed to purpose a deal, which was declined. forcing him to declare war, when he touched the triforce. which was only accessible through link taking up the master sword. it split so he could not get his wish but he made it happen, and eventually was corrupted by the power. so he eventually turned evil but his original intentions weren't that horrible

what do you think

PS this is my first topic post so don't get mad if it sucks

Aha, first of all it doesn't suck, Second of all I do not believe that Ganon was always evil. I do believe that Ganon was a bad person with bad intentions at first which is why he turned evil.

 

[Megamannt125]

I like to imagine that in his younger years, Ganondorf had good ideals, he wanted to make the lives of his people peaceful, but as he aged, he became more power hungry, until his plans became more "I want to rule the world" rather than "I want to help my people".

 

[Djinn]

I think it is interesting that the character has evolved to the point that we know enough of him to actually make him a sympathetic and tragic antagonist. Instead of just another typical badguy placed there for the hero to fight.

In the original Loz he was just the villain. He kidnaps princess, steals magical artifacts, and commands armies of bulldog men and sword wielding skeletons. In Link to the Past we learn a little more about him. He was a thief leader that killed all of his men in his own greed and then ruled the Dark world with absolute power. Transformed into the shape of a pig representing his own reckless greed for everything. OoT gave us the real origin and a few more answers to his motivations. He was already a king of a thief tribe but was corrupted by his own ambitions for more power. And was then ultimately corrupted by ultimate power. But Wind Waker gave us some more characterization. He actually saw the result of his reckless devastation in the form of the Great Sea. So over the years he evolved from two dimensional villain who only existed for the hero to kill to a very three dimensional character motivated by his jealousy and greed for more that he transformed into a villain that, while completely evil in the traditional Cartoon villain sense, still had an "at all costs" attitude and would eliminate anyone that got in his way.

It depends on what iteration of Ganondorf we are speaking about; in WW, the player feels somewhat sympathetic to Ganondorf, as he has undergone a somewhat ironic tragedy related to what happens in Ocarina of Time. Much of this is reflected in TWW, after he has had a long time to reflect on his actions in Ocarina of Time, and he begins to understand some of his subconscious motives. He is also delusional, to an extent, wherein he cannot accept that he may have done the initial wrong, and refuses to come to terms with what appears to have been guilt that has manifested itself inside of him over a long period of time. It is perhaps his inability to accept this guilt that shows evil is still prevalent within him, but this character development really shows a much more three dimensional character. WW Ganondorf shows that he is much more complex, and possibly remorseful of some of his actions in OoT.
In Ocarina of Time, however, he is merciless, duplicitous, and Machiavellian.

I believe this as well. He has had time in the Sacred Realm and after in the Forsaken Fortress to reflect on his past and motivations. His intentions in Wind Waker was to wish for the return of Old Hyrule then rule it himself. He is still motivated by his intense jealousy of the Hylians. He still after the centuries wants what they have. And he wants to rule it as a god king. These are still the ambitions of a Thief king. He wants, he takes, then he commands.

While I do believe that Ganon/dorf is EVIL and BAD, I have argued many times that I believe that WW Ganon/dorf had a more righteous plan in his mind than any other Ganondorf. To me, in WW, it seemed that Ganondorf only did what was necessary to get what he wanted. For instance, once Ganondorf knew that the girls he had kidnapped were not Zelda, he left them alone. Sure, Link had to rescue them, but the point is that Ganondorf didn't kill them or torture them. He was just looking for something and they didn't have it so he just left them alone. Same thing with Link. Ganondorf wanted Link's piece of the Triforce. He literally had no intentions of killing or fighting Link, he just wanted the piece. If you replay WW or watch the final scenes with Link and Ganondorf you'll notice that the only reason they start fighting is because Link attacked him first. Ganondorf did no make the first move and had no intentions of hurting anyone. Also, Ganondorf wanted to bring Hyrule back. The king of red Lions didn't want Hyrule to be resurfaced.

Anyway, Ganondorf is bad, but I believe some versions are way worse than others.

Some of this I agree with, some I am not so sure about. Yes he was only after the Triforce of Wisdom and never really harmed the other kidnapped girls. As said before Ganondorf does not consider himself a monster and most likely would not kill several young girls without provocation. They did not have the triforce and no Hylians at that time had any knowledge of it so there was no need for torture at all. In fact any time he has acted in WW was because he was provoked in some way. As for Link, I do not think Ganondorf ever considered the kid to ever be much of a threat to him at all. Centuries before it took a combined effort of an adult Link, Zelda, and the sages to defeat him. So a child Link acting on his own was never a threat to him by his perceptions.

But in the end, I believe the final fight was completely out of anger. Link had snuk into his castle, ruined his plans, and at the last second when he almost had his wish it was taken from him. And to add insult to injury the Hyrule of old was going to be completely destroyed and buried under an ocean. An he with it. So in his final hour before dying under trillions of gallons of seawater, watching firsthand the total drowning of his coveted land, and in the face of complete failure of centuries of planning, he was pissed. That was the moment he finally said "Enough with this little $#@&! I'm killing him right here and now before I die!"

So yes he is a villain, but in a very three dimensional very real world understandable way. Nobody ever starts out "evil." Attitudes and motivations are shaped by one's environment, lifestyle, and upbringing. Only we now know and understand where Ganondorf is coming from when he wants so badly to claim Hyrule for himself. Even if his methods of doing it are less than reputable.

 

[Michael Heide]

Spoilers for Watchmen (comic book and film) to follow.

"do motivations justify actions?"

I think this is what we need to keep in mind here. We have to look at two different things. Motivation and methods. If we operate with a binary worldview (good or bad, nothing in-between) that gives us four different possible outcomes.

Motivation is good, methods are good. This is Superman. His motivation is completely altruistic, and he has a strict code of honor, which means that he never kills, even if it would save the lives of countless other people. This is as good as it gets.

Motivation is bad, methods are good. This is Lex Luthor, at least when he isn't actively trying to kill Superman. Luthor (at least from 1986 to 2006) was always characterized as a man motivated by his vanity and greed. He wanted to be the richest, most popular man on the planet. And how did he do it? By donating to charity, by employing millions of people, by throwing fundraisers and everything. Of course, then came Superman and stole his spotlight, which prompted Luthor to create killer robots, evil clones and the whole she-bang. But outside of his personal war with the Kryptonian, he did good things. And yet - if the apple is rotten at the core, it's hard to call it good.

Motivation is good, methods are bad. This is Ozymandias from Watchmen. His motivation is world peace and an end to the Cold War. He achieves that over the course of the story (though one could argue that the final image will end this short period of peace), but his methods are despicable. In the comic book, he kidnaps scientists, science-fiction writers and artists to create something that kills millions of people. In the movie, he doesn't kidnap them, but kills even more people and frames one of his best friends in the process. This is Evil.

Motivation is bad, methods are bad. This is Hitler. His motivation was a massive superiority complex, paired with rampant xenophobia and homophobia. His methods were a war of aggression (that eventually drew in the whole world), concentration camps and the Gestapo. This is Evil.

In the case of Ganondorf, he likes to paint himself as an Ozymandias, doing everything he does for the greater good. This is most obvious in, but not limited to Wind Waker. However, if we truly look at it, his motivation is a lot closer to that of Hitler. Sure, it was unfair that the Gerudos had to live in the brutal desert. But that wasn't Ganondorf's only motivation. That was just the front. At the core of it, he was a power-hungry king that wanted to rule over more than just his desert. Besides, just like the Treaty of Versailles, whatever banned the Gerudos to the desert did not justify mass murder and war. And even if he was the poor, tortured soul that he considers himself to be in Wind Waker... he transformed a beautiful land into hell and made himself the king. And then, with all the power of the Triforce, did he transform the Haunted Wasteland into a Garden of Eden? No.

Make no mistake, Ganondorf is as evil as it gets.

 

[Hawk the Warior]

This isn't so much a "Does the end justify the means?" as "Does ?" and I say that, while, he may have started just wanting his peoples land back, Ganandorf killed, upsurped, kidnapped, and destroyed, so that he commited a much, much greater crime then what he was atoning for, so i belive Ganandorf was almost completetly evil. I think, however that he still belived that he was doing this for his people, and so thiught he was doing good. I think no one can belive they are completely evil. But, in the end, the motivation just doesn't justify the end. All he ended up caring about was Power.

-Hawk the Warrior :mastersword:

 

[flyingseal]

The winners write the history books...

Link did win
Didn't He


(Btw great post dude)