Fool-Proof(?) Timeline

[Caleb, Of Asui]

This is the timeline that I generally accept:

The Minish Cap
Four Swords
Ocarina of Time / Majora's Mask
Twilight Princess (The Wind Waker / Phantom Hourglass in Adult Timeline)
The Legend of Zelda / The Adventure of Link
Four Swords Adventures
A Link to the Past / Link's Awakening
Oracle of Seasons / Oracle of Ages

Here's my figuring:
- Miyamoto said in an interview before MM's release that the order was OoT, LoZ, AoL, LttP, with LA anywhere.
- Oracle games go after LttP because it works with the games' release order, and it makes sense that Ganon is dead and the Triforce is in Hyule Castle.
- Miyamoto (was it him?) said in another interview before FSA and TMC that FS goes first.
- We know the whole deal with the split and TP and TWW being in their own timelines.
- In FSA, Ganon is revived and trapped in the Four Sword for LttP to follow accordingly.
- LoZ is before FSA and LttP because it only works before - the triforce is still split after the events of TP and it's reasonable for Ganon to still be alive, even though Ganondorf (as in his human form) was killed in TP.
- Pretty much everything else is obvious and shouldn't be questioned.

All evidence points toward this timeline, so it seems to me like this is pretty close to Nintendo's official timeline that they won't tell us. Is there anyone that I've persuaded already? Or anyone that's willing to contradict some small detail with legitimate proof?

 

[Emma]

LoZ/AoL can't go there. Here's why:

Please note that it says it is the predecessors to the Link and Zelda from the original game. Meaning that this game takes place before that.

Other than this glaring fact the timeline your have there is pretty common. Widely accepted

 

[ChargewithSword]

LoZ/AoL can't go there. Here's why:

Please note that it says it is the predecessors to the Link and Zelda from the original game. Meaning that this game takes place before that.

Other than this glaring fact the timeline your have there is pretty common. Widely accepted

Should you really trust an American made box? They made a lot of changes to the manual too. How do we know that Alttp is the predecessor? Of course Miyamoto said that it was before LOZ and Aol but we can't say it's a predecessor Link.

 

[Caleb, Of Asui]

Exactly, ChargeWithSword. Most of the text on the boxes and manuals are not canon at all. I assume that the case with A Link to the Past's box was that Nintendo of America was just trying to figure it out and didn't know exactly what Miyamoto and Nintendo had in mind.

They could just be making a note that Link and Zelda are different people in A Link to the Past from the characters we had in the first two games. They might not have realized they were labeling A Link to the Past as a prequel.

I think most people who put LttP before LoZ haven't actually played those games. People tend to be missing the fact that Ganon DIES at the end of LttP.

 

[Emma]

I think most people who put LttP before LoZ haven't actually played those games. People tend to be missing the fact that Ganon DIES at the end of LttP.

I've played them all. And Ganon dies at the end of LoZ too. And in TP and TWW. (You try to survive getting a sword rammed through your brain.) So Ganon deaths have no bearing on timeline placement. Just face it, the guy has a tendency to die and then come back somehow. AoL shows that there are ways to bring him back. As does OoX.

 

[basement24]

They might not have realized they were labeling A Link to the Past as a prequel.

I think they did realize this at the time, because it was in all of the pre-hype surrounding the game. What I think they actually didn't realize was they were creating the beginning of a major headache for people like us more than 10 years down the road.

 

[MrMosley]

What I can't seem to figure out is how everybody thinks that every text given to the American versions of the games is wrong. I doubt they just threw anything up there on that box. If it says the predecessors of Link and Zelda, then thats what it means. Plain and simple. 98% of the people who play Zelda aren't going to say, "Hmm. Well I think I might go translate this Japanese box here and this entire manual to make sure this is right."

I don't want to sound so much like I'm ranting, but the thing is that what we get here in America is what we get. What they get in Japan is what they get. From what I've seen, the translation differences are not that great. We shouldn't have to go translate Japanese games to get a story when we have a perfectly find one here. So if thats what my box said that I paid $40 for, then thats the story I'm gonna go with.

As for the information presented here, Ganon dies at the end of LoZ. So much so, that they even made a sequel to it (AoL), where he was still dead. In any other Zelda game, he would have been revived somehow. LoZ is the only Zelda game so far that shows an apparent permanent death of Ganon. So it makes sense for it to come last in my opinion. Not to mention the fact that they named the game "A Link to the Past". So, they named the Japanese version "Triforce of the Gods". I doubt, very very much, that Nintendo would be so careless to not pay one bit of attention to the back of the box information, the manual, and the entire title of the game. I doubt that all of those things would imply that ALttP was a prequel, and it not be a prequel.

 

[sign of table]

The Japanese box implies that LttP is before LoZ/AoL (by implies I mean that as long as you don't way over-analyze a marketing tool it only means one thing), but it's from like 18 years ago and is waaaaaay outdated (along with the Miyamoto timeline), imo.

You can't really use the Miyamoto timeline without disregarding every other important developer quote from the time as well. Such as OoT being the SW. All those quotes are clearly outdated since TWW came out.

It's close to my timeline:
----TWW/PH
OoT
----MM-TP-FS/FSA-LttP-LoZ/AoL-OoX

TMC either goes before OoT or after TP/before FS (leaning towards before OoT, but not completely positive). LA can go after either LttP or OoX (I'm completely neutral on this).

what we get here in America is what we get

What we get here in America is crap from Bill Trinen and Dan Owsen. If we use the American translations then we're going against the intent of Aonuma.

In any other Zelda game, he would have been revived somehow.

He's only been revived in OoX

LoZ is the only Zelda game so far that shows an apparent permanent death of Ganon.

Other than OoX, LttP, TWW, and TP, of course, right?

Not to mention the fact that they named the game "A Link to the Past". So, they named the Japanese version "Triforce of the Gods".

You do know that the Japanese version came first, right? The Japanese version is more canon than the crappy American version. Therefore the canon name is Triforce of the Gods.

Regardless, LttP was definitely a prequel to LoZ/AoL when it first came out.

Exactly, ChargeWithSword. Most of the text on the boxes and manuals

Boxes, sure. But back then the manuals were the only source of story for the games and the games were made to go along with the manuals.

LttP was made to go along with the Seal War story. Thus, manuals are clearly canon.

They could just be making a note that Link and Zelda are different people in A Link to the Past from the characters we had in the first two games. They might not have realized they were labeling A Link to the Past as a prequel.

Possibly. But the entire game of LttP and the story heavily implied that it would have been before LoZ. There's no reason to assume it wasn't.

I think most people who put LttP before LoZ haven't actually played those games. People tend to be missing the fact that Ganon DIES at the end of LttP.

You must be missing the fact that Ganon dies in 5 games total...

i have a official box. YOU HAVE NOTHING!

 

[Caleb, Of Asui]

You can't ever just say, "Oh, let's just disregard whenever Ganon dies," because then you have almost nothing to go off in timeline theorizing. (Ganon is also revived in FSA, by the way.)

The main thing aside from Ganon is the Triforce, so LoZ should still go before LttP in that case. There's nothing at the end of TP rejoining the Triforce, so it's logical that it should still be seperated. It's put together at the end of AoL, so it has to be whole anytime after that. It won't just randomly be whole somewhere along the line.

By the way, I remember some important Nintendo person (not sure who, probably Miyamoto) saying that they're trying to fix the timeline a little with the newer games. That means TP, with the triforce being split and Ganondorf dying and everything.

Speaking of Ganondorf dying - LoZ can easily follow up after TP in the case of Ganon, since TP has Ganondorf dying in his human form, but his pig/beast form doesn't explicitly die, so Ganon (beast form) probably seperates itself somehow from Ganondrf (gerudo form) over time in order to be alive in LoZ. I know it sounds a bit farfetched, but Hyrule is a fantasy world after all. There's not anything as logical explaining his appearance in LoZ if it's after LttP.

But the entire game of LttP and the story heavily implied that it would have been before LoZ.

What are you talking about? LttP's story gives no evidence of being before LoZ whatsoever. If you could provide a few examples, I would appreciate it. I'm still not really sure what makes so many people say LttP is before LoZ.

 

[MrMosley]

Regarding Sword's post, cause I'm not gonna quote all that, what I'm saying is that very few people actually care about what happens in other countries as far as the games go. Its not an important enough difference to translate Japanese information. We aren't in Japan, so we aren't going to argue Japanese text. What we will do is go with what we've been given. And that is not stuff that's going to be radically different from the Japanese versions. They don't change things and make it completely opposite of what it originally was without Miyamoto or Aonuma caring, at least in my opinion.

And no, Ganon was not proven permanently dead in those games. OoX dosen't show the death of Ganon at all. For all anyone knows, those games could come after LoZ/AoL, in which we know Ganon was killed. We do not know that he was killed in TP, it only seems that he was, but I can agree that he probably died in WW. And in the Oracles, he wasn't revived completely. Twinrova sacrificed their own body to bring him back to life, so that was not Ganon.

Also, we were given the name A Link to the Past. The word "past" is key here. Its not some random title they decided to throw up there for nothing. According to the last text of the game about the Master Sword, for all we know they could have planned on it being the last Zelda game.

 

[Steve]

And no, Ganon was not proven permanently dead in those games. OoX dosen't show the death of Ganon at all. For all anyone knows, those games could come after LoZ/AoL, in which we know Ganon was killed. We do not know that he was killed in TP, it only seems that he was, but I can agree that he probably died in WW. And in the Oracles, he wasn't revived completely. Twinrova sacrificed their own body to bring him back to life, so that was not Ganon.

And no, Ganon was not proven permanently dead in those games. OoX dosen't show the death of Ganon at all.

After he's defeated, he fades a way like smoke, so in which case he is just as dead as The Legend of Zelda Ganon.

We do not know that he was killed in TP, it only seems that he was

He was stabbed through the heart, if that didn't kill him then even basic physics don't apply to video games. Don't forget the Triforce of Power faded from him and so his immortality was no more.

but I can agree that he probably died in WW.

How can you think he's definitly dead in The Wind Waker and not Twilight Princess, if anything it's vice versa? The Master Sword only sealed him in stone, all it would take is for someone or something to remove it, and he'd be free. Whereas you remove it from Twilight Princess Ganon, and he'd still be dead.

Also, we were given the name A Link to the Past. The word "past" is key here. Its not some random title they decided to throw up there for nothing. According to the last text of the game about the Master Sword, for all we know they could have planned on it being the last Zelda game.

You're right, the word "Past" is key, because the game is a prequel to the other two.

 

[Erimgard]

The Minish Cap
Four Swords
Ocarina of Time / Majora's Mask
Twilight Princess (The Wind Waker / Phantom Hourglass in Adult Timeline)
The Legend of Zelda / The Adventure of Link
Four Swords Adventures
A Link to the Past / Link's Awakening
Oracle of Seasons / Oracle of Ages

Okay, if I'm reading right, you believe:

Adult-------WW-PH
MC-FS-OoT<
Child--------MM-TP-LoZ-AoL-FSA-aLttP-LA-OoX

Okay...here we go:

Why are FS and FSA so far apart? The FSA backstory makes it clear that FS and FSA are in close proximity and feature the same Link. As you currently have them, FS and FSA are hundreds of years part.

And before you tell me "FS has to be before OoT because the directors said so", consider the context of the quote:

The GBA Four Swords Zelda is what we’re thinking as the oldest tale in the Zelda timeline

Wanna know what he said RIGHT before that?

To me storyline is important, and as producer, I am going to be going through, and trying to bring all of these stories together, and kind of make them a little bit more clear. Unfortunately, we just haven’t done that yet.

So if you wanna structure a timeline around a quote about a game that he clearly is unsure of...well....doesn't seem too logical. In-game evidence says FS and FSA are right next to each other.

Okay... TP-LoZ
TP ends with Zelda holding one Triforce piece, Link holding one, and we don't know about the ToP. The AoL backstory (which takes place before LoZ and AoL) requires all three Triforce pieces to be in possession of the King of Hyrule. How does this happen?

Finally, when/where/how does the Seal/Imprisoning War play out in your timeline? The Seal War is the story of how the Sacred Realm became evil and was sealed away by the Seven Sages, setting the stage for aLttP. The requirements for when it happens are:

-It happens very soon after a battle arises in Hyrule for control of the Sacred Realm
-It happens at a time when no one has succeeded in finding the Sacred Realm and returning
-There have to be Seven Sages to cast a Seal
-The completed Triforce must be resting in the Sacred Realm

 

[sign of table]

Why are FS and FSA so far apart? The FSA backstory makes it clear that FS and FSA are in close proximity and feature the same Link. As you currently have them, FS and FSA are hundreds of years part.

Just as clear that the MS in the SW is the same as in LttP? Or that Ganon is the same (wait, no, that's clearer)? Or that Ganon never left the SR between the SW and LttP?

Okay... TP-LoZ
TP ends with Zelda holding one Triforce piece, Link holding one, and we don't know about the ToP. The AoL backstory (which takes place before LoZ and AoL) requires all three Triforce pieces to be in possession of the King of Hyrule. How does this happen?

The same could be said for LoZ/AoL as the first game on the AT.

Finally, when/where/how does the Seal/Imprisoning War play out in your timeline? The Seal War is the story of how the Sacred Realm became evil and was sealed away by the Seven Sages, setting the stage for aLttP. The requirements for when it happens are:

-It happens very soon after a battle arises in Hyrule for control of the Sacred Realm
-It happens at a time when no one has succeeded in finding the Sacred Realm and returning
-There have to be Seven Sages to cast a Seal
-The completed Triforce must be resting in the Sacred Realm

-A battle? There WAS NO BATTLE BEFORE THE SW. All it said was that it was not uncommon for blood to be spilled for certain information. Blood spilled =/= a battle.
-True.
-Heavily, heavily implied and intended to be human/Hylian sages.
-Yeah.
-Also remember that the SNES manual is clear that there was no gap for Ganon to leave the SR between the SW and LttP.

 

[MrMosley]

After he's defeated, he fades a way like smoke, so in which case he is just as dead as The Legend of Zelda Ganon.

You must not have understood what I said. I said that OoX could come after LoZ and AoL. Meaning that LoZ would be THE DEATH of Ganon. OoX does not show a new Ganon dying. LoZ is where he dies, AoL he is still dead, and without clear information showing where OoX goes, those are the only two games that back up his death. AoL shows that he is still dead, and is the only game that does so.

He was stabbed through the heart, if that didn't kill him then even basic physics don't apply to video games. Don't forget the Triforce of Power faded from him and so his immortality was no more.

No, he was not stabbed through the heart. He was stabbed in the abdomen. Yeah I saw the Triforce fade away, but we don't know that he died. He should have died, but we do not know that it happened.

How can you think he's definitly dead in The Wind Waker and not Twilight Princess, if anything it's vice versa? The Master Sword only sealed him in stone, all it would take is for someone or something to remove it, and he'd be free. Whereas you remove it from Twilight Princess Ganon, and he'd still be dead.

Not really. I doubt having your brain split in two would make it possible for you to function, even after your entire body was somehow released from a wall of stone. My timeline shows that ALttP comes sometime after TP, therefore it is likely that Ganondorf (the man) survived, or maybe was resurrected at some point, seeing as how the manual of ALttP talks about Ganondorf as a man gaining access to the Sacred Realm, and acquiring the Triforce. And no, this event is not Ocarina of Time. ALttP's manual says he wished to rule the Sacred Realm and was sealed there, where he transformed into Ganon. None of those events happen in OoT, so no matter how many times anyone says it, ALttP's backstory does not show enough evidence to be OoT.

You're right, the word "Past" is key, because the game is a prequel to the other two.

Which is exactly the point I was getting at.

 

[Steve]

You must not have understood what I said. I said that OoX could come after LoZ and AoL. Meaning that LoZ would be THE DEATH of Ganon. OoX does not show a new Ganon dying. LoZ is where he dies, AoL he is still dead, and without clear information showing where OoX goes, those are the only two games that back up his death. AoL shows that he is still dead, and is the only game that does so.




No, he was not stabbed through the heart. He was stabbed in the abdomen. Yeah I saw the Triforce fade away, but we don't know that he died. He should have died, but we do not know that it happened.




Not really. I doubt having your brain split in two would make it possible for you to function, even after your entire body was somehow released from a wall of stone. My timeline shows that ALttP comes sometime after TP, therefore it is likely that Ganondorf (the man) survived, or maybe was resurrected at some point, seeing as how the manual of ALttP talks about Ganondorf as a man gaining access to the Sacred Realm, and acquiring the Triforce. And no, this event is not Ocarina of Time. ALttP's manual says he wished to rule the Sacred Realm and was sealed there, where he transformed into Ganon. None of those events happen in OoT, so no matter how many times anyone says it, ALttP's backstory does not show enough evidence to be OoT.




Which is exactly the point I was getting at.

I've always believed the Oracle games occurred after LoZ, but I was recalling that you said Ganon didn't die. As for LttP, I was agreeing with you, and I seriously have to facepalm if someone thinks it is OoT. Ocarina was based off it, but certainly not the same game.