Anti-Goddesses?

[DeletedUser9]

they arent "nice" in MM. you save one of the witches from near death...im pretty sure you would be nice to the person who saves your life too. there also was nothing anywhere in OoT saying that they were brainwashing Gerudo in OoT. you totally just made that up. keep in mind that kid Link never runs into koume or kotake which means that he doesnt know they are evil. youre thinking through your eyes, not Link's eyes. if link has never met them he doesnt know they are evil. if ganondorf is captured before they can do anything evil then they will run away before they get captured too. if the king of evil is easily captured do they stand a chance? they would flee and lay low. running a potion shop in a different dimension and not commiting acts of evil seems like a solid way to hide. the fact that they arent evil and the fact that you THINK they would be brainwashing Gerudo isnt good evidence. they have the same exact names, the same exact look and the same exact personalities (minus being evil). all of the signs point to them being the same characters.

now i would understand them being different characters if it was a game made years after OoT but its a direct sequel. too much confusion is caused if they arent the same characters and without any in game quotes or hints its best to assume they are the same witches. if they wanted them to be different characters all they had to do was give them different names. its not that hard to do... as i said earlier or in a different thread, either they are the same characters or the creators are EXTREMELY lazy and didnt change their names or even attempt to hint anything out of laziness and that doesnt sound like the Zelda crew to me.

I didn't make that up. I got that information from Zelda Wiki, which is a pretty reputable source.

Where are you getting this from, Ganondorf getting captured? Twilight Princess? MM was made long before TP, so I doubt there would be much relation in plot. Besides, TP takes place 100 years after OoT.

You do realize that Termina is an alternate dimension, right? There are tons of characters in MM that hold the same appearance and same name as they did in OoT, but are completely different characters. A good example is Anju and her family. They are obviously supposed to be the same people, but tons of facts don't add up (the members of the family are different in either game, for example.) So this means that they are alternate versions of the OoT characters.

You are right, there is no definite proof that they're not the same Twinrova. But at the same time, there is a lot suggesting it.

 

[Zemen]

for the record, yes, TP takes place 100 years after OoT but the BS where Ganondorf is captured is a flashback which is widely accepted as the events that take place after Link is sent back to his childhood in OoT and its assumed that he told the king what was going to happen so the king captures ganondorf sentencing him to be killed (which is the flashback shown in TP).

were just going to agree to disagree because im not getting into this.

 

[garato]

i really never got that scene. i mean to think that they built that exxacution ariea in gerudo desert so fast is just plane weard. and on that note the game sayed that gannon can only be killed by the master sword (and if you want to be technical light arrows) but you clearly see that shiny sword thingamigiger go right into gannondwarf. wtf?

 

[Zemen]

i really never got that scene. i mean to think that they built that exxacution ariea in gerudo desert so fast is just plane weard. and on that note the game sayed that gannon can only be killed by the master sword (and if you want to be technical light arrows) but you clearly see that shiny sword thingamigiger go right into gannondwarf. wtf?

....he obviously doesnt die....otherwise nothing in TP would have happened.

it shows the ToP (triforce of power) appear on his hand right after he gets stabbed and seemingly dies and then he comes back to life and because they cant kill him, the sages send him to the twilight realm.

did you even pay attention during that cutscene?

 

[Alexander]

Technically I'm going to have to agree with Ky. There really is no true Anti-Goddesses that are evident within the Zelda series. The closest, of course as mentioned, would probably be Twinrova but even then their considered witches, and of course not Goddesses; So technically, that rules them out of the running.

The only way you can go about this is saying that Ganondorf is an Anti-God rather than their being Anti-Goddesses. In reality, saying an Anti-God vs. Goddess is still the same as comparing an Anti-Goddess to Goddess. Besides, the only real threat to the Goddesses that is truly evident within the series, is as mentioned, Ganondorf. Time after time he is the one who goes after the Triforce, the exception being in a few games like Majora's Mask where there is no true mention of the Goddesses nor the Triforce, which technically rules that out of the general topic.

But, if you wanted to challenge me on Majora's Mask, you could in theory call Skull Kid/The Moon the Anti-God as there are the four Gods from the dungeons that you've beaten who try to stop the moon, but that's rather irrelevant to the topic at hand.

 

[Master Kokiri 9]

I believe Koume and Kotake are the closest things to the anti-Godesses.

They summon not only a buttload of monsters throughout the entire series, but they gave birth to Ganondorf, the king of all evil.

I agree with ya dude. They brought ganny into the world. and he does have the title 'king of evil' and they don't give that title to just anyone. i think that koume and kotake are the devils that came before ganny and ganny later takes the evil demonic throne.

 

[voltarrow]

I got a question for dvSag, how could kotake and koume give birth they are both women

 

[Skull_Kid]

I believe Koume and Kotake are the closest things to the anti-Godesses.

They summon not only a buttload of monsters throughout the entire series, but they gave birth to Ganondorf, the king of all evil.

Do you by any chance know what you are saying?
It is stated that they were his SURROGATE mothers, do you know what that word means?

Here it is:

Surrogate : providing or receiving nurture or parental care though not related by blood or legal ties .

Happy?Got it straight from a dictionary.
There are no "Anti goddesses" per se, just villains who want to obtain their power

 

[TVTMaster]

There's pretty much nothing in the Zelda series that fits the Zoroastrian good/evil model, with two equal opposing forces, but maybe there's something more along the Judeo-Christian model- an adversary much weaker and incapable of triumph, but allowed to exist for some greater purpose.

I dunno, I'm thinking Ganon (as in the pig demon entity that recurs throughout Zelda, while Ganondorf has two definitive deaths) could be seen as one of these. The Goddesses don't choose who gets the Triforce- they're clockwork gods, and the Triforce simply chooses based on the level of Power, Wisdom, or Courage, depending on whether or not it is working normally at the time. Ganon's really powerful, so he gets more power, and he's evil. So, yeah.

 

[fiercedeity619]

I believe Koume and Kotake are the closest things to the anti-Godesses.

They summon not only a buttload of monsters throughout the entire series, but they gave birth to Ganondorf, the king of all evil.

if koume and kotake are the anti-godesses then why do the why do they got to "heaven" when you kill them in OoT?

 

[Aurora]

Salvator, by all means. Who fires cannons at innocent barrels? Or has stupic "cut" scenes.

 

[Erimgard]

and before you start shooting out Ganon/dorf and Majora as answers, those are demons, not devils, and none of them are ever said to rule the underworld but we know that the goddesses rule the heavens, so who is the enemy of the Goddesses?

Actually, Ganon is said to rule the Underworld. In LoZ, his empire of evil underground is literally "The Underworld".

In AoL, OoT, WW, and FSA, he's said to rule over "The Demon World".

His official title in Japan is Demon King. Though not completely synonymous with Devil, he's clearly the highest evil entity in Hyrule.

Again, with the technicallities, Majora is called the Devil. One of the composer brothers refers says that his brother sould his soul to "Akuma", which is pretty much synonymous with The Devil. He's referencing Skull Kid, and more specifically, the Mask.

 

[Master Kokiri 9]

if koume and kotake are the anti-godesses then why do the why do they got to "heaven" when you kill them in OoT?

Who's to say they did? How do we know that the route to the hylian underworld is through a path in the sky? We didn't go with them in the game to find out where they ended up. And also whos to say the hylian religion doesn't even have a heaven? How do we know? Who's to say there isn't just he**?

 

[Erimgard]

Who's to say they did? How do we know that the route to the hylian underworld is through a path in the sky? We didn't go with them in the game to find out where they ended up. And also whos to say the hylian religion doesn't even have a heaven? How do we know? Who's to say there isn't just he**?

Weeell since you asked

In the Japanese, several people in several games reference "The Realm of the Dead". The terminology here is more similar to a Greek/Roman concept of a neutral afterlife. Neither heaven nor hell.

However, in the Japanese Oracles, Twinrova threatens to "personally drag you to hell". Pretty harsh, I love Japan. However, that's an angry witch yelling at you. The neutral afterlife is referenced by the Sages in OoT, which seems to give it more credibility.

Then again, Hylian culture seems to have an emphesis on ghosts and other afterlife forms, implying that maybe there isn't a "true death", or perhaps even some sort of reincarnation. Kaepora Gaebora is said to be a reincarnated ancient Sage.

Also in the Oracles, Twinrova states that the deceased Ganon is "wandering the darkness".

Final thing on my mind...Majora's Mask, in the story of the Four Giants, states that the imp (Skull Kid) was banished "to the heavens". The word used here in the Japanese means "realm of the Gods". While it could refer to the afterlife, I think it makes much more sense that it just refers to the dwelling place of deities. That's the more literal definition.

So there ya have it. Lots of different afterlife references.

 

[Master Kokiri 9]

Weeell since you asked

In the Japanese, several people in several games reference "The Realm of the Dead". The terminology here is more similar to a Greek/Roman concept of a neutral afterlife. Neither heaven nor hell.

However, in the Japanese Oracles, Twinrova threatens to "personally drag you to hell". Pretty harsh, I love Japan. However, that's an angry witch yelling at you. The neutral afterlife is referenced by the Sages in OoT, which seems to give it more credibility.

Then again, Hylian culture seems to have an emphesis on ghosts and other afterlife forms, implying that maybe there isn't a "true death", or perhaps even some sort of reincarnation. Kaepora Gaebora is said to be a reincarnated ancient Sage.

Also in the Oracles, Twinrova states that the deceased Ganon is "wandering the darkness".

Final thing on my mind...Majora's Mask, in the story of the Four Giants, states that the imp (Skull Kid) was banished "to the heavens". The word used here in the Japanese means "realm of the Gods". While it could refer to the afterlife, I think it makes much more sense that it just refers to the dwelling place of deities. That's the more literal definition.

So there ya have it. Lots of different afterlife references.

Dude you're probably right. There probably is a neutral afterlife in the hylian religion. And yeah you're probably right about there not being a 'true death' in some cases. And also for the most part most of the links are just a single soul reincarnated. But about the owl... i don't care if he is the living incarnation of farore herself if i could i'd kill him.