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ZD Forum Change Concerns

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Jamie

Till the roof comes off, till the lights go out...
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
Gender
trans-pan-demi-ethno-christian-math-autis-genderfluid-cheesecake
What are the chances that a user on ZI shares a username with a user on ZD and when the merge happens, they end up with a merged account?
Hopefully in this case us, being the superior beings, usurp their existence and transform into our ultimate forms.
 

DARK MASTER

The Emperor
Joined
Apr 29, 2010
To continue the productive conversation...

@Mases many of us at both ZI and ZD want to keep our post archive. I strongly hope this is taken into consideration so we can all preserve our content.
 
Joined
Feb 4, 2016
Hey there, I guess I should post here. I'm Dr. Flamingo of ZI. I just wanted to explain what the ZI boards are currently like. They are... mostly dead. The members of ZI don't seem to trust the boards to stay up after several technology shifts, down periods, and legit attempts by the higher-ups to minimize the role of the veteran members to attract a new userbase that never materialized. They're holed up in a Skype chatroom, and very few still venture out to the forum, but they still exist, and might even return to a revived board.

Now, I'm not super certain that the ZD and ZI communities are a good match, but I'd be willing to give it a good effort. I just don't want the ZI community to be lost somewhere in the mix. I, personally, don't want to be lost in the mix. And stuff like keeping our post archive is a good step toward reassuring that we aren't forgotten.
 

Emma

The Cassandra
Site Staff
Joined
Nov 29, 2008
Location
Vegas
Hey folks. Editor-in-Chief of Zelda Informer here. Hows it going? From what I am read here... it's not going well. I understand your pain. While I am "in-the-know", I have always done one thing at Zelda Informer, especially circa 2014 after I left Gamnesia for good - been open and honest with our fans. Included them in the conversation. I am no more important than any other staff member, and we as a staff are no more important the fans we write for, create videos for, and converse with. We're all just people who happen to love Zelda enough to all end up at a site that happens to be completely dedicated to that front.

I also know the importance of a strong community. I am aware that ZI's community also was a pretty toxic place before I finally left Gamnesia. Some of that toxicity was certainly inbuilt intentionally. ZI spurned out of distaste for ZU. We quickly passed ZU in two years and then had a distaste for ZD. The point is, we were certainly a toxic place. I was part of the reason such toxicity existed. At the same time, I was also one fighting against it. Old guard at ZI were all about open freedom of speech with zero censorship. That's an absolutely fantstic ideal. But without limits, it can lead to issues. There has to be a way you expect your fans to act in order for a community to not blow up with drama. ZI had a lot of drama in those days. We have been basically drama free as a website since the end of 2014 when I came back to my full time duties at ZI. Well, until the buyout - but honestly that was just staff concern and it's gone a lot smoother than I feared it would from ZI's side of things. As an example, we literally dedicated most of 2015 to guide content. Not sure you guys have seen it, but our Majora's Mask 3D Walkthrough, Zelda 2 Walkthrough, beginnings of the minish cap walkthrough, Link's Awakening Walkthrough... etc are all fantastic. Like, that was our 2015. We did that while maintaining everything else that we do.

We also changed the culture. Pre July 2014, ZI was a great site, but I'd argue there was a lot I was ashamed of. I was ashamed of how I myself acted at the site for the better part of 6 years. How I treated fellow staff so poorly and acted as if I was better than they are. How I basically used ZI's fan base as a means to my own gain for awhile. It was abhorent. I was a terrible person and my terribleness culminated in 2012. Long story short, ZI made money in 2012 and I kept all of it. It was in very poor taste. I ended up paying it all back and then some over the next two years, but that's irrelevant. I was a ****ty person making ****ty decisions for my own benefit.
All of that sounds good. It is good to admit it, and I do like what you have in mind as a community. Considering it as one big whole and not totally isolated parts. A big problem I've had with people here in the past is that various parts of the site were considered isolated and independent. Most of the former forum staff members, and to a degree the current ones, and of course Mases, were all guilty of this. So many just considered parts they don't care about as a irrelevant trivialities that deserve no consideration and that the communities in them are nothing but an afterthought. Mases sure is doing that with regards to the forum now. And in the big drama you've seen referenced that happened last year, a certain individual former admin who decided to delight the counterpart thread at ZI decided to start trying to spread anti-wiki hatred. He deleted everything I had implemented on the forum to promote the wiki and fought my every attempt to get something else. And with the other staff members former and current, they all have been resistant to accepting that the wiki and forum ought to be considered one single community that helps each other. They might not agree because they don't look at it the way I do, but bottom line is I tried to involve the wiki, get people on the forum to interact and the staff told me no. The only thing I managed to accomplish is setting up a plan for awards for helping the wiki, which has sat in limbo. I know it's not the best motivation, but I figured it'd help take away the novelty of awards if they were more of them and they were easier to get. Removing the rarity should take away the smuggness people expect with that kind of thing.

Why am I telling you all about my past demons here? Because I want to be up front and honest with you. I don't want to start a relationship with this community by pretending as if I didn't come from a terrible place making terrible decisions. If the Matt in this thread is the same Matt I remember from Zelda Wiki and the Stone Watchers group - he can likely attest pretty well to my bad attitude (oh so many years ago now those memories rest, when I was merely 20/21, and I am now turning 30 this year).I feel it is the same Matt because much of the reasons I didn't really like him are coming right out in this thread. At the same time, much of the reasons I absolutely respected him are as well. The thing is, none of that matters right now. Matt can be a great guy and he's super talented. Who cares what happened a 8+ years ago?
I am the same one. And I admit my expectations of you were what I experienced of you eight years ago. And, let's be honest, you were pretty horrible then.You gave me very, very good reason to say the things I said to you. I honestly have never forgiven your role in the conspiracy to get me demoted. Yes it was a conspiracy. It was not the first either. Remember Dathen and when he worked for ZI? Well he lost interest in ZW then and only posted ZI stuff on the wiki when he did come. Axiomist was furious about that and he campaigned to demote Dathen. I defended Dathen. I told Axiomist, after he tried to get my help, that I refused to take part in his petty vendetta and his bloodlust to go after ZI. Which is saying something since at the time I loathed ZI with a passion. Needless to say that Axiomist was less than pleased. He immediately started doing anything he could to demote me and when I removed you from the Zelda Wiki staff chat (which I only did because I was the only chat mod and several admins and a few crats actually told me to do), everyone in his conspiracy jumped at the chance to use that to remove me. Listing several names on a list of those who "approved" my dismissal. Despite many of them adamantly insisting after the fact that they were never informed and that their names were added to list without their knowledge.

So I have been bitter for many years. But I understand that perhaps for you it might have just been a Tuesday for you. It was a major life event. It took away everything I was working for. And kept me out of any attempts to help. IT's a big reason why I get so angry today when people accuse me of having some malicious motive when all I really care about is seeing the place thrive and stay healthy. It's all I have ever cared about and I don't appreciate the constant character assassinations I've had to deal with over the years. You being a central figure in my very first one has cemented a deep anger towards you.

But if you say you've trying to do better and want to leave the past where it is, then that's okay. Everyone deserves another chance. And to be completely honest I am extremely impressed with some of the things you have said here and in the counterpart thread. It is the right attitude and more of that mentality is needed. Perhaps I was unfair to hold onto that rage. I will never approve of your behavior in the past, but, as you said, it's the past. I think everyone has the right to leave regrettable mistakes in the past if they endeavor to better in the future. For my part I am sorry for assuming you were still the person now that you were then.

So, what now? Well, circa July 2014 I went on a quest with ZI and myself. How could I be a better leader? How could I get rid of my selfish ways? How could I make ZI's community ultimately friendly and inviting? Well, it first started with me reforming the staff. I rebuilt our team through hiring sprees from the ground up. Int hat process, I include the staff in all decision making. No longer was it just "upper management deciding" - no, it was the entire team. Do we have 50 staff? All 50 get a say. All viewpoints are viewed as equal to another. A step further than that - if we did make a huge change we would include our community in the conversation. If it was wholly negative, we'd revisit the topic as a staff and see if we can either re-purpose the idea to address the concerns, or if it's not worth doing at all.
You may remember that that's not how Zelda Wiki was run. The bureaucrats acted as if they were gods that ought to be worshiped. Yes you did some of it, but you faded into the background after a short time and Xizor was the big problem. He was so convinced of his own godhood that no one could bear him there. When I moved to the ZD wiki I was determined to not have a repeat of that. I insisted it be run more or less exactly how you just described. I am extremely uncomfortable making any decision for it without consulting the others that are part of it. I view wikis as the ultimate expression of a community. It is a small community working together to gather information, as much as possible, organize it, and express it to the world at large. Community is central to its function. It needs a community to act as it should, to grow beyond its boundries. With that in mind I couldn't in good conscience operate any other way but a community-based drive.

We also decided bullying needed to stop. We would never censor users ideas, but we can control a little bit how they put it out there. We can eliminate the diea that it's okay to attack someone. Rather, we want people to discuss, even argue against, ideas. Not people. In the same way, I'd never argue against Matt doing what he does here. I take his thoughts and concerns to heart. I don't know the truth in the past - I wasn't part of that. I only know what tomorrow brings.
You have no idea how much people are irritated by me championing anti-censorship ideals. I don't wear this avatar for just any reason. But on the same coin several here can tell you that I also believe there has to be a reasonable limit. Expectations of what is and isn't okay to do to people. I'm never respected for that. People just see me as some irritating little trouble maker out to cause chaos. I'm never acknowledged to simply trying to improve this community. If all I wanted was trouble or if I hated it, I'd have left long ago. But I'm still here.

See, ZI is a very different place. Collectively as a staff we all approved on a new code of conduct policy. This policy governs all aspects of our site - from commentary to social media... all the way down to our forums. You can read it here: http://www.zeldainformer.com/about/code-of-conduct
That is reasonable.

That makes me think. In reality the entire Zelda community is toxic to some degree. ZI has had its history of it. And there's certainly been some here. We've had bad staff members, or toxic regular members who seemed to want nothing but to watch the world burn. For years. It seems that it just keeps happening. Addressing the problem in general, rather than singling out any specific place, seems like a pretty good idea. If you can spare a minute, Nathan, I think you would appreciate the thread I made about bullying in the Life Advice section, it's at the top. It should give some perspective on what I think about bullying and why it's so important that I don't let it go unchecked.

That above boss man post was in March 2015. You know what I see when I look back at the 92 comment conversation there? Belief. Growth. Proof to me that back then, ZI was moving in the right direction. Sure, you had a handful that were disgruntled, but they weren't mean about it. They just disagreed with the idea of what a fan is. That's fine - disagreement is healthy for a conversation. You also see people thanking me, you see some real discussion. This was my great hope for the future of ZI.
You certainly seem to be taking it in a positive direction. That's always a worthy goal anyone should reach for.

Fast forward to a few days ago. An editorial I wrote (editorials generally get more fan interaction discussion wise. News is more "reactions", editorials and debates are more "discussion" oriented. To compare to a forum, it's like someone posting a new thread with an idea they want to talk about): http://www.zeldainformer.com/articl...es-cause-delays-in-new-zelda-game-development

What do I see here? Amazing discussion against, for, or otherwise. Even when people disagree, the hostility isn't there. Even when it looks like it's building up, it quickly fizzles and things get back to a great place again. Folks, this is Zelda Informer in the here and now. If that's toxic to you, than I guess I have failed in my year and half surge to build a more inviting community.
I liked that article. It was interesting. As for the comments, typical of the internet in general. Approvals, disapprovals, instances that something else is better so that subject doesn't matter. None of it surprising. It's why I think the comments serve a different purpose from forums. There's not much you can do about how random people on the internet behave. You can't force them to be something else. But what you can do is set a positive influence in your own community. If they respect you, and your expectations of conduct are reasonable, they'll gladly go for it. It is a delicate balance.

So, let's get into concerns:

I agree with your concerns. All of them. I read all the posts in this thread (unaware this thread even existed for days because I never rejoined after you switched to Xenforo) and I get it. I do. Your reactions are very similar to Zelda Informer's staff reactions when there was an idea on the table of a merging of ZI and ZD into one site. While that's an entirely different conversation, reality is there were misconceptions in that and there are misconceptions here. I don't think ZI is this toxic place you folks remember from years back anymore. Even our facebook page, which is 7,000 times harder to police than these forums (mostly based upon the sheer amount of activity level), has gotten much friendlier. Is it perfect? No. Nothing ever is. We have our issues still and I work hard to make sure they slowly go away. There is no "overnight fix". Your folks attitudes against ZI, maybe even against me (the face of ZI as some call me), isn't fixed because of this post. It's not fixed because of whatever we talk about here.
Well you might be touching on a very serious point. You say that the community at ZI has improved and that people here are not aware of that. What about people who used to go to ZI that no longer do and are not aware of the other events you referenced? Your changes that you said not everyone was happy about? What happens when some of the more volitile elements of ZI's past see that it now has a huge forum? Would they come back and behave exactly how they did before? And what about Gamensia? From what you have said, and what was said in our meeting, there seems like there's an element there that is very, very unhappy with the direction you personally took ZI and with this recent aquisition. Can we expect a problem from them like what both of our sites got from ZU? For reference, that problem admin I mentioned before was active at ZU for a while and along with a former admin at ZU, brought over people from ZU to troll ZD and even convinced people at Zelda Wiki to come and harass us for a non-issue that the respective leaderships of both wikis had already reached an agreement about years previously. Needless to say that after I re-initiated contact with that leader, he was less than pleased about what they had done and that they had lied about the previous agreement existing.

All I can do to "fix" this and change anyone's opinions is to give them time. I don't think ZI is as toxic as people claim. In fact, reading this thread was probably the most negative and toxic thing I have read since responses to my negative blog post about ZD before ZD bought ZI. You know what that negativity about my blog post was? That I posted it in the first place. Zelda Informer's fan base was mad at me. Why was that? Why would they be mad at me? Because I was pushing forward some drama onto the fan base after I spent 1.5 years entirely changing what that fanbase represents. They weren't mad at me for being upset at the time - they were mad that I went out of ZI's current character. What I posted is not the ZI they know. I had to do a lot of apologizing and explaining to thousands of people on an individual level over the course of a week. It reminded me of something though. This is exactly the ZI I wanted all along - no room for bull**** like me being upset a staff member is leaving. They can understand and even sympathize with why I am upset, but they don'[t need to be part of that. Every fan I talked to seem to not only understand that I was upset, but they helped me see how I didn't need to make a public bruha about it.
Even if the toxicity is diminished from what it was, which I'm inclined to take your word for, I still think it's a very bad idea to merge the forums. I think they should be left as they are now. But also considered just two sections of a new larger community. I don't understand how that can be a problem. We can have members crossover as much as we want or need.

And see, that's what I want you folks to understand here. I know you don't feel Mases is listening to you. He claims that he is, but actions DO speak louder than words. I do know he doesn't prioritize forums or view them as super important parts of a website, let alone Zelda Dungeon. That doesn't mean he doesn't care. I wouldn't know as I have been focused too much on ZI to talk much about the ZD community. But I am here now because hey, if this merge is happening as I was told it is very soon... well... I want to start my introduction to you by being as open and honest as possible.
As to this, the main thing that bothers me about how he views it is how he constantly hyperfocuses on the numeber of views per day it gets and not on what it's actually there to do. It's not there to attract droves of viewers, that's what news, social pages, walkthroughs, and the wiki are for. That's their function. Forums are about a community. Views have nothing to do with it.

I do care about fostering a healthy community. I may disagree with some ideology, but I hope that's something myself, the forum staff here, and really all of us as a community can come to an understanding on. I read a few times in this thread about drama months ago. I've read about issues with power mongerers and all that. Hey, I've been there. But like, if nothing else I am seeing a lot of my ideals for a community already firmly entrenched in what you folks believe. Open honestly from the top level down. Willingness to consider the entire communities desires. Not letting some people really think they are more important than others in terms of discussing things, etc. Like, that's what I strive for.
It certainly seems like you've grown for the better. Please check out that thread I mentioned a few quotes up. I think you will see some commonality there. Something I did in my past that I've severely regretted that I try to make up for.

I think the biggest reason that has probably gone unsaid for why Mases wants to bring the forums from ZD over to ZI isn't about an act of good faith because our wiki is being nuked and all our amazing guide content is being taken away. Giving me a comic book when you take away my food doesn't solve my hunger. This doesn't "make up" for that, and I doubt Mases sincerely thinks our staff thinks that way either. I think the biggest unsaid reasons is well, the fact I DO care about the forums. I do care about festering an amazingly open community to all Zelda fans from all walks of life. Why does he want to bring ZD's boards into ZI?
Our wiki is near death. As much as Mases wishes to downplay it. It's barely holding on. If anyone who worked on your wiki wants to come to ours, they're more than welcome so long as they hold to the ideals of conduct and community that you've been advocating here. Help is desperately needed. Very desperately. More than anyone cares to admit.

Because with me and the current administrators and moderators (and other ZI mods and admins), you have a team of people that ultimately care a great deal about you. Mases may still be the top dog above all else, but I'm not just some guy that spews out some news. I have 18 years of experience running Zelda sites, forums, social media outlets, and staff teams. I have experience running wikis. Did you folks know I founded MetroidWiki,org? The biggest benefit is the guy that is basically at the top isn't just some forum only guy. He's a guy that cares about the wellbeing of Zelda Informer on the whole. All parts working together in sync toward sthe same end goal - bringing as many Zelda fans together as we can in a positive manner. Does the entire community want x feature on the forums? Great, I can do that for you. I don't need Mases to do it - I can do it. Do we need a final decision on key matters? I'll be right there.
Someone in charge of a forum that isn't just going to ignore a problem and will simply just do something about it is certainly a good thing.

Why? Because that's how much I care. As for ZI's Forums - rest assured the current layout is **** and I am aware of it. The boards were supposed to be 100% customed skinned before I promoted them. The reason our community is tiny there is basically because of that alone. I have not promoted our forums much because they are still in what I would call a "beta state". Their development is not complete.
I'm going to tell you a secret. The layouts here have been pretty terrible. Not to mention how they hyper-focused on the forums being an isolated entity, ignoring the main site, removing the links to the wiki, and being somewhat.. ridiculous. The new default is okay, but I think it's too flat. Not enough definition. I know Microsoft has a hard-on for that super flat, ultra minimalist design, but I don't like it. I want some definition, some color, some curves, interesting borders, regions shaded different colors. Something when you look at it you say, "that looks really nice and very interesting!" But made with practical effects, not layers of absurd images like Zelda Universe is obsessed with.

But, rest assured that IPB is a very capable program. Do we want to do something but that addon costs money and Mases won't pay for it? I will pay for it if we really want it. Everything you have here on Xenoforo is virtually doable and then some in IPB. You just need people around capable of doing it. I know some people, but besides that, I think we can do something special together.
If you're willing to go the extra mile, that is good. I don't necessarily think it's relevant which system is better though. What matters is how well it is understood. No disrespect to our staff here, but none of them really understand Xenforo. The only one who seemed to really get it was Jamie. And he doesn't want to be involved anymore.You seem to really understand IPB. So in that case it is irrelevant which is better if you are experienced in making it do what you need it to.

As for DISQUS IS THE FUTURE! Disqus is nothing but a means in which people converse with eachother. Just like the comment section on a post on facebook, just like a text message between friends, like a post on forums, and anything else. It's just a tool. The tool is irrelevant. Zelda Informer's biggesty advantage over ZD's current setup is that everything is interconnected. It's one site account for everything. You only register once to edit our wiki, comment on news, and post in our boards. Everything content wise is interconnected, and the forums were going to be part of that once we got out of beta.
I think you're missing a bit of context. So many here are resentful of DISQUS explicitly because of how much Mases emphasizes with his actions that he cares about it more than he's ever going to care about the forums. He more than once expressed his feelings that forums are an antiquated feature that in the future won't hold a place and instead there'd be comment sections like DISQUS. That is the source of the "DISQUS IS THE FUTURE!" joke. And there's a distinct possibility Mases will complete deny all of that. But as you said, actions speak louder than words and his actions support that he thinks that way.

The other problem is the problem I touched on above that is inherent with comments sections. Because this is the internet, the hugely open and incredibly casual nature of comments sections are magnets for conflict and argument, things that are not necessarily what one would want in a forum. And there's nothing you can do about that without making the comments ridiculously authoritarian like requiring them to be approved before being posted. And personally that degree of censorship turns my stomach in every painful way it can. There should be some degree of connectivity, yes, but there also has to be a floodgate so that not all of that negativity, that no one can do anything about, bleeds through.

As for the one account thing.... DISQUS doesn't have local accounts. They're global across all of DISQUS on the whole internet. Directly linking to DISQUS isn't exactly a desirable thing. However, you can still give people one single login by simply linking it to Facebook. DISQUS itself uses Facebook as one of its options to log in. And both the forum and the wiki have extensions that can be used to let people log into them with Facebook. Tying in facebook gives the same unified login without automatically opening to door for the worst of the commentors.

Our infrastructure to promote intersite relations is way up there. But that doesn't matter really. What does matter is that you know I'm here for you. I can't say anything about branding. What I can say is that we care greatly about a united community that all follows the same set of rules and goals, even as people choose to express themselves in different areas (people comment on posts may not comment in foruyms and vice versa, and those people may not comment on facebook). But it doesn't matter. All I care about is no matter where you comment and talk about things - if it's under the ZI banner it should feel like home. I hate segmenting.
All the segmenting I want is function and very limited in form. But I still want all parts to consider themselves cogs in the same machine that should work together in harmony. I don't think that merging the forums is the only answer. In fact, you having attitudes agreeable to our current ideals only makes that more of a bad idea. Because it seems like it is being done partly for the rational that your forum simply can't survive because it's too small and that it needs an infusion of blood. At least that's what Mases tried to imply in our discussion. I can't say that makes any sense to me. No community will die so long as someone cares about it enough to fight for it. And you certainly look like you can do that. If the forums are left alone as is, both can survive.

If nothing in this universe can convince Mases to change his mind, which is very likely because, as a rule, he absolutely refuses to listen to anyone, particularly about anything even remotely controversial (which as a rule is what the majority of advice from an adviser such as myself is going to be), then from you I'll require the cooperation I need to support the wiki that previous iterations of the forum staff here never would do. I don't want to do just one thing. And I would hope that as a community, several people could work together to come up with ideas to help it and that they won't just stop with one idea and call it good enough. It needs all the help it can.

As for matt's concerns for the wiki - I have a great promotion plan that will really get the ball rolling there. I know you feel it needs more active users - you can still use the forums to get that if you want, but I can help directly or indirectly. We have some good wiki people too that may be willing to come over and help. Community is important. Community is simply the foundation ZI is built on now. Even if that community isn't in a full forum format just yet.
Like I said a few sections up, any help is desperately needed. I don't have the luxury of turning them away no matter how much I might want to believe that ZI's past is not as far in the past as you say. It's near death now and any help is absolutely essential.

Alright, so similar to what I originally thought then. Main site = priority #1, wiki = priority #2, and a distant one at that, and forums are an even further distant "priority" #3.

To me, it seems laughable at best to suggest the average forum goer keeps the site running. And where are we all going to go for walkthroughs if the forums go down? As I've already mentioned, the walkthroughs are head and shoulders better than any other site, and tbh, it's not even close. It's one of the things I absolutely applaud mases for, and it's the entire reason why ZD is, and has been for a while, the biggest zelda "fansite". Because it's not really a "fansite", which rarely do well by themselves, but it is and has always been a site to get information.

Mases wants to keep the forums and remains, at least somewhat, involved because he knows people care about it. Not because he personally cares about it (nor should he, for that matter, considering he doesn't post here or make any money from it). We (including myself) give him a lot of **** for not really caring sometimes, but when you look at these statistics, and honestly, I didn't even think they were that stark (assumed forums were at least bringing 5-10% of traffic), would you care that much? This is Mases full time job. It's clear he thinks more guides is the way to go, and honestly it's hard to argue with that. So he wants to separate ZD and ZI with their purposes. To be totally honest, it makes a lot of sense to me, and anyone who knows me would agree I rarely say that about mases' decisions regarding the forums.
Only if everyone keeps persisting in the delusion that number of visitors per day are the one and only function of a forum. That has absolutely nothing to do with it. It supports the rest of teh site because it creates a community that can bind together and form a fellowship. When other areas of the site, like walkthroughs, front page, wiki, social sites, look for help, their absolute best source, that is regretabbly untapped, is the forum. Someone you just pick up off the street, as a random hire will probably not stay. Random hires have an extremely high turnover rate. For the wiki, it's absolutely crucial to have a large contributor base that sticks with it long haul. Someone drawn from the existing community, like the forum will be more likely to be valuable and stay and will more likely care about the growth and future of the whole site. THAT is why forums are so valuable. That is their function. That is what people are absolutely refusing to admit. Every single time anyone tries to say what the forums are for, every single time the amount of views per day it gets is all anyone talks about. Those mean nothing. Viewers are the end goal our front end efforts, walkthrough, news, social. They are not important for the inborn community. This does not mean every single individual has to help everything in the site. Just being there helps, because it gives the people who do work on the other parts a place to socialize with a tighter knit community, talk about common goals and interests, and overall support each other. That is something that the THE FUTURE (DISQUS) cannot provide.


Now, I'm not super certain that the ZD and ZI communities are a good match, but I'd be willing to give it a good effort. I just don't want the ZI community to be lost somewhere in the mix. I, personally, don't want to be lost in the mix. And stuff like keeping our post archive is a good step toward reassuring that we aren't forgotten.
I don't think we can know if they are. That's why I think that it is absolutely essential that for now, we simply let the forums exist independently for at least a good long while. And let everyone take time to get to know each other first so we can be sure it'll mesh properly. Instead of Mases's insane plan of just mashing it together and forgetting about it no matter what happens to it. If some come out to help the wiki, which is very badly needed, that can be an opportunity to start getting to know each other and forming a bridge we can use to test the waters. And in any case it'll help the wiki stave off total stagnation.
 

Azure Sage

Join your hands...
Staff member
ZD Legend
Comm. Coordinator
I have not seen the numbers in a while, but the forum is by far the lowest. I'm talking 10% or less of what we see on the main site daily.

Roughly 5% of the traffic is the front page.
Just over 2% of the traffic are all front page articles/blogs combined
About 92% of site traffic are walkthrough pages and wiki pages
Holy cow. That's really unbelievable to me. I know the forums aren't as active as they used to be, but damn. I had always thought they were the most used part of the site. I'm really surprised by these stats.

Now I can see why you care about the guides and the main site more. But I really hope that this doesn't make you take the forums any less seriously, especially when you have so many people here who love them and don't want to lose them.
 

Vanessa28

Angel of Darkness
Staff member
ZD Legend
Administrator
Joined
Jan 31, 2010
Location
Yahtzee, Supernatural
Gender
Angel of Darkness
Am I the only one who isn't worried about the merge? I mean if Mases thinks this is needed to get better results for the main page, why not? Walkthroughs are fine. Articles with the latest news is much appreciated too. So if the merge benefits both sites, it can only be a good thing. But I also understand the members like to have some insight too and not being informed after a decision is already made. Because this is raising concerns and worries.

Now the forums; from what I understand, many members are afraid to lose their posts they made through the years. Nobody wants to start with 0 posts. I think the main concern for the members is they have to start from scratch.
Through the years there have been a lot of drama on ZD. Both caused by staff and members through the years. We had an administrator last year who allowed to let his emotions get the best or worst of him, but his technical knowledge was superb. When members brought up issues with the site, he (and jamie too) did all they could to get it fixed asap. Personally I've seen way worse (staff) members in the past who damaged the site much more than said administrator. And I will be the last one to throw the stone when asked if I have been innocent. I had my moment of childish and stupid behavior too. Or making stupid decisions. I think it only makes you a better person when you fall deep and realize enough is enough.So much respect to Nathaniel for admitting his mistakes. I like it when people are open and honest.

As a member of the site for 6 years now I think it's always a good thing to be a member among members and not some supremacy. If staff think they can get away with misbehaving and acting like they're above the community, the members will bounce back and say enough is enough. This is what happened to ZD as well. We had a lot of drama going on (trhough the years with pauses between) and I think the members grew so tired of it they no longer cared or made their voice heard. The last couple of months things are actually very relaxed over here. Members don't flame each other for the tiniest things anymore. Members respect each other and try to make the community work. We had a couple of members who misbehaved but who made a long appology post. This shows some guts and courage to do this. And nobody kept a grudge and just embraced them again. I find this a very positive change. If we keep this attitude after the merge, the future looks brighter than we expected.

In general I agree with Dabombster. I don't expect too many problems after the merge but it would be nice if the members are informed on forehand. Like I said before, this might eliminate needless worries and headaches and give some closure on what to expect.
 

Djinn

and Tonic
Joined
Nov 29, 2010
Location
The Flying Mobile Opression fortress
Wow this thread is the most active at 5am my time...

I seem to be having an easier time finding addons for IP Board than I ever have with Xenforo. If anyone remembers we also lost lots of additional things when we switched a year ago. This does mean we might have things like blogs back, etc. And I still want to have some kind of point market system.

and yes one of the first things ever said was that all posts will be moved.

Holy cow. That's really unbelievable to me. I know the forums aren't as active as they used to be, but damn. I had always thought they were the most used part of the site. I'm really surprised by these stats.

Now I can see why you care about the guides and the main site more. But I really hope that this doesn't make you take the forums any less seriously, especially when you have so many people here who love them and don't want to lose them.
Honestly there is a good argument for the forums being the least used part of the network. But they have the most dedicated memberbase that continues to come back each and every day. As well as typically being a farming ground for future staff who want to do things like post on the main site, work on graphics etc.

In terms of navigation, will someone who tries typing the current URL after it is changed be redirected to the new URL?
Temporarily yes, but all Forum links on both sites should direct to the same forum.
 
Joined
Aug 12, 2015
Hey there, I guess I should post here. I'm Dr. Flamingo of ZI. I just wanted to explain what the ZI boards are currently like. They are... mostly dead. The members of ZI don't seem to trust the boards to stay up after several technology shifts, down periods, and legit attempts by the higher-ups to minimize the role of the veteran members to attract a new userbase that never materialized. They're holed up in a Skype chatroom, and very few still venture out to the forum, but they still exist, and might even return to a revived board.

Now, I'm not super certain that the ZD and ZI communities are a good match, but I'd be willing to give it a good effort. I just don't want the ZI community to be lost somewhere in the mix. I, personally, don't want to be lost in the mix. And stuff like keeping our post archive is a good step toward reassuring that we aren't forgotten.

Let me preface this by saying I appreciate the honesty of the ZI folks who have posted here. I don't know enough about the history here since I've only been a Zelda fan for a year. Still, the above post touches upon a very good point - the ZI forum community is infinitely smaller than the one here on ZD. And let's face it, no matter how good a job the guys who implement the merge do, things WILL be lost and there's nothing you can do about it. Which is why I still believe moving the bigger community over to the smaller one is a really really bad idea. I have no problem with the idea of a merge itself - as I said, I don't know what was going on here years ago and frankly, I don't care. Infact, I wholly support the idea of us joining forces. At the end of the day, we're all Zelda fans, we're all human, so why not be friends? But if we're going to merge, we should do it sensibly. And I honestly don't see how moving from the best forum software out there (let's face it, Xenforo is awesome) for an arbitrary reason such as DISQUS support, which as has been pointed out, isn't even the best option for the interconnectivity that is planned, is the right decision.
 

Emma

The Cassandra
Site Staff
Joined
Nov 29, 2008
Location
Vegas
If we go ahead with the merge, but do the more rational option of merging the zI forums over here, moving the smaller community over to the larger one, we can still do a few changes. We can still change to IPB if we want to, it's not like we haven't changed software before. I'm still hesitant to say either software is definitively better than the other, but given that we need to get rid of Xenforo anyway if we want to implement Locke's optimizations, and that it has more options for addons, it should be worth it. And it can certainly suit our purposes so long as the features we've come to expect are added.

And as for the other primary concern, no one in authority giving a damn about the fate of the forums, I think people would be willing to give Nathan a chance at heading it up himself since he's shown he's dedicated, experienced with IPB, and having worked hard to move his moral focus to the very same ideals we ourselves have struggled to achieve here. His presence should ensure that the existing ZI community not only feels welcomed, but as an indistinguishable part of the new whole. And also having him here can help illustrate that it is indeed two sites joined in a union. And not like just one site with a wiki on the side, which essentially is all ZD is going to be if the forums are merged there. The wiki will be the main portal with the walkthroughs being the main draw for viewers. But to the outside observer, it'll just look like ZI acquired ZD and shut down parts of it instead of the other way around. If we merge the other direction, it'll look more like a cooperative endevour.

It certainly would be a far more reasonable course of action than the existing plan.
 
Joined
Feb 5, 2016
Having a quick look at ZI, the Community really doesn't look at all toxic, but I didn't dig very deep.

Honestly, I think this change is a bad idea. No matter what the change is, URL and major layout overhauls severely impact the population of a website. Look at Bungie.net's forums prior to and after January 8, 2013. There was a gargantuan population drop, and a similar thing happened with another overhaul on July 16, 2014. It sets entire communities back to square 1.

But whatever, this isn't my website.

Because the community isn't toxic. Our code of conduct really took care of eliminated most of it. You still get toxic individuals at times, but when they start breaking the code of conduct... whelp, it is time to move on from that person and remove them (after a fair warning and showing to them of the code of conduct, of course).

As for "major change in URL, layout overhauls, changes... etc killing a community" - certainly this can happen. But let's be honest - the ZD forums aren't exactly brimming with a massive user base. Bigger than ZI's? Sure. It should be. The only reason anyone visits our forums is because old timers wondered back over a link at the top - but I am aware we have many other former forum users sort of sitting around waiting for something to happen with the boards to bring them back. Them sitting unskinned and still in beta is not really going to revive the community.

But I don't care for the merger one way or the other. Myself and the ZI staff were actually opposed to the forum merger at the start, and that was with us having 5 active forum goers at the time. We had misconceptions about your community just as you guys have of ours that made us feel like the ideals don't mesh. Turns out - they sure seem to be pretty on par with each other. That simply means prior bad blood between sites has really altered what we think of each other. None of this is relevant to your remark - what you say is true. ZI's currently barely alive forum is proof to that point. And what sucks for me the most is the one thing I am TERRIBLE at is skinning boards and to look a way that is more inviting and more connected to the site. I was heavily relying on Dennis to take care of it before ZI was sold. I will have to probably look else where or convince Mases to do the same.

But, and I want to stress this, a good thriving community filled with people that care to see it succeed can bounce back. I do care. I think ZI's community can bounce back WITHOUT ZD's community brought in. At the same time based on what I have seen here, I also think that it is possible this entire community would be in better hands at Zelda Informer, viewing the forums as equal importance to literally everything else we do (that is, once our boards are out of beta. Can;t stress that enough). And yes, I am a numbers guy, but numbers can't be the sole measure when community building.

Hopefully in this case us, being the superior beings, usurp their existence and transform into our ultimate forms.

This should ultimately be a non issue. There are likely very little username crossover and what there is, whoever is the currently active member will take priority.

To continue the productive conversation...

@Mases many of us at both ZI and ZD want to keep our post archive. I strongly hope this is taken into consideration so we can all preserve our content.

This shouldn't be hard. We have a bunch of stuff on our boards from the last 8 years currently. That archive of content isn't tied to any accounts because unfortunately Dennis was unable to connect it all after all the years of changes. But we still kept the content because it was important. I know first hand IPB has a tool to import users and posts from Xenforo. So everything can be preserved and connected to your accounts here while the stuff already at ZI from the current small community stays intact. Meanwhile, all the old ZI archived posts can remain too. It shouldn't be a big task - but I understand the overarching concern. New things are scary when you've never seen it done before.

Hey there, I guess I should post here. I'm Dr. Flamingo of ZI. I just wanted to explain what the ZI boards are currently like. They are... mostly dead. The members of ZI don't seem to trust the boards to stay up after several technology shifts, down periods, and legit attempts by the higher-ups to minimize the role of the veteran members to attract a new userbase that never materialized. They're holed up in a Skype chatroom, and very few still venture out to the forum, but they still exist, and might even return to a revived board.

Now, I'm not super certain that the ZD and ZI communities are a good match, but I'd be willing to give it a good effort. I just don't want the ZI community to be lost somewhere in the mix. I, personally, don't want to be lost in the mix. And stuff like keeping our post archive is a good step toward reassuring that we aren't forgotten.

Our post archive (as you have seen it return when we came back in october) is important and it won't go anywhere. I hope in it's return you can see my sincere effort in caring about our past. As for minimizing the roles of veterans, mostly it was about a cultural shift. I don't want to minimize the role, I want to makes the forums feel like they aren't this foreign entity to the rest of the site. I think we're on our way. I just really wish Dennis delivered on what he promised me for the boards so I could finally do more with them. :/

And with the other staff members former and current, they all have been resistant to accepting that the wiki and forum ought to be considered one single community that helps each other. They might not agree because they don't look at it the way I do...

To me, it's more than that. The entirety of the website needs to be one single entity. I understand why you specifically would focus more on Wiki/Forum connectivity, but it should be more than even that. That's just part of it. When people visit anything that has to do with X brand, it should feel familiar and safe. If people visit our Facebook page, conversing there shouldn't necessarily feel like a totally different community than conversing in the forums. Because all areas of the site should be held to the same ideals. While there are obviously going to be differences inherent to the delivery method of conversation (and differences in user engagement). I think we're mostly in agreement here. Everything is a part of the whole. Facebook isn't who we are. Etc. Everything is centralized at the site where we have more control over the community we wish to have.

You may remember that that's not how Zelda Wiki was run. The bureaucrats acted as if they were gods that ought to be worshiped... Community is central to its function. It needs a community to act as it should, to grow beyond its boundries. With that in mind I couldn't in good conscience operate any other way but a community-based drive...

To be fair, the very early days of ZW (long before there was head butting), pretty much the entirety of the ZW community back then originated from said bureaucrats. Like the entire foundation of the wiki was built off of their user bases and their support. Once that culture began changing as ZW was starting to see more organic growth, that's when headbutting occurred and the crats didn't want to see the change happen, even though it ultimately needed too. As for the base of operations - I agree in a sense forums can help foster a healthy wiki, but I have first hand experience that it isn't the only way. It's the way you know. It's the way you're familiar with. But I have seen that growth and community building can come from many different avenues. That's part of my ideal with a united site. It's about bringing the whole community together - and when I say community it's not just the boards. I hate notions we should "ignore" the fact that most of the Zelda community doesn't, nor will ever, use a forum. Because in a sense, that air of superiority forum users feel over commenters is something that needs to go away. Those people who comment can care just as much as anyone in the forums about this site.

You have no idea how much people are irritated by me championing anti-censorship ideals. I don't wear this avatar for just any reason. But on the same coin several here can tell you that I also believe there has to be a reasonable limit. Expectations of what is and isn't okay to do to people. I'm never respected for that. People just see me as some irritating little trouble maker out to cause chaos. I'm never acknowledged to simply trying to improve this community. If all I wanted was trouble or if I hated it, I'd have left long ago. But I'm still here...

See, the thing is, our code of conduct takes care of all of this organically. It governs our staff too. Like, this is how we want everything to be. People weed themselves out naturally. People are allowed to have opinions and speak their minds - even against us. But, there is a limit to how that can be approached for the betterment of the community on the whole. I don't know this community pretty much at all. I see my ideals lining up with some in this thread - but I have a hard time believing that those in this thread is all there is. I saw someone mention 40 active users or something. No idea on the truth of that, but I'd like to see more and more what this community is about. Because my ideals at ZI may be geat and our code of conduct sound, but it doesn't mean that those ideals are the reality here, and people here may not actually want those ideals. Much like some of ZI's old guard are ho-hum about the code of conduct, but for the most part are willing to work within it if the community can foster. They care more about having an active community than about trolling and all that other nonsense that use to go on.

That makes me think. In reality the entire Zelda community is toxic to some degree. ZI has had its history of it. And there's certainly been some here. We've had bad staff members, or toxic regular members who seemed to want nothing but to watch the world burn. For years. It seems that it just keeps happening. Addressing the problem in general, rather than singling out any specific place, seems like a pretty good idea. If you can spare a minute, Nathan, I think you would appreciate the thread I made about bullying in the Life Advice section, it's at the top. It should give some perspective on what I think about bullying and why it's so important that I don't let it go unchecked...

I may give it a read. I have a hard time diving into old topics and sifting through them here mostly because well, I do a lot at Zelda Informer. Even as I am starting to spread responsibilities around, I like to keep my thumb on everything so I can get a good feel for what areas need my help or need more people hired on, etc. But that also means I want to keep my ear to the ground here. If this change is happening, it's happening. Today, tomorrow, in a month, whenever. All I can do is my very best to address any concerns and work with the forum team - a team I have yet to have a real conversation with yet. I might start pming them in hopes of getting together this month to talk about things.

I liked that article. It was interesting. As for the comments, typical of the internet in general. Approvals, disapprovals, instances that something else is better so that subject doesn't matter. None of it surprising. It's why I think the comments serve a different purpose from forums. There's not much you can do about how random people on the internet behave. You can't force them to be something else. But what you can do is set a positive influence in your own community. If they respect you, and your expectations of conduct are reasonable, they'll gladly go for it. It is a delicate balance....

Sorry you view the comments that way. But I think this goes along with your overall mentality and misconceptions about comment sections versus forums in general. Did you know that most of the people commenting on my editorial there are regulars who are around daily/weekly conversing with fellow Zelda fans on ZI? They aren't just a random subset of users. As for "approvals, disapprovals, something is better, etc" - that's literally what a conversation is. This is also true in forums. I have read many Zelda threads on these boards as part of my internal search for inspiration on editorials and daily debates. I see a lot of that same stuff right here on the boards. Why is that? Because that's what a conversation entails. If everyone just nods there head in agreement, it typically becomes a rather stale conversation after the first page or two and it fades away.

Let's look at a more broad conversational discussion: http://www.zeldainformer.com/exclus...-enough-to-convince-you-to-buy-twilight-princ

Now, there are clear differences there than a forum. Mostly that forums serve better purpose to a depth of conversation and continuation - basically this sort of topic at the site is really only going to have conversation going for a couple days before they move on to the next conversation. But the conversation is still just as important and it's pretty healthy there - even with an influx of "randoms". Those randoms are still viewers of our site. They aren't 2nd class citizens below a long standing commenter. However, the idea I had moving forward was the interconectivity - these discussions promoting continuation to the boards to keep the conversation going longer. Allowing different forms of the conversation to take place. To me, forums are for long form conversations, comment sections are more for quick discussion (think of it more like your chat box area versus people posting in threads). But all of the above is essential to a cohesive and long form community. I have a long standing history and experience that neither is inherently more important than the other for any aspect of the site. They are just different, but equal parts important to a healthy community.

Well you might be touching on a very serious point. You say that the community at ZI has improved and that people here are not aware of that. What about people who used to go to ZI that no longer do and are not aware of the other events you referenced? Your changes that you said not everyone was happy about? What happens when some of the more volitile elements of ZI's past see that it now has a huge forum? Would they come back and behave exactly how they did before? And what about Gamensia? From what you have said, and what was said in our meeting, there seems like there's an element there that is very, very unhappy with the direction you personally took ZI and with this recent aquisition. Can we expect a problem from them like what both of our sites got from ZU? For reference, that problem admin I mentioned before was active at ZU for a while and along with a former admin at ZU, brought over people from ZU to troll ZD and even convinced people at Zelda Wiki to come and harass us for a non-issue that the respective leaderships of both wikis had already reached an agreement about years previously. Needless to say that after I re-initiated contact with that leader, he was less than pleased about what they had done and that they had lied about the previous agreement existing.

If they come back and do not conform to our code of conduct, there is no special treatment here. They are out the door. We've already had one returning member in particular trying to fight against the change and after the boards get out of beta, if his behavior continues he's out of here. That's the beauty of how things work now. It doesn't matter what they were like before, we have new standards and they either live within them or find themselves removing... themselves from the community.

As for Gamnesia - I had nothing to do with the sale of ZI. Let me make that clear. I had no say. I didn't get paid out of the ordeal. In fact, the sale itself brought to light something that was hard for me to accept - I never got down in writing that I co-owned Zelda Informer, so the sale literally happened without my input for the most part. I was made aware of respect for what I do by both sides, but I didn't get any real say in it. Gamnesia isn't upset at me or ZI. They are upset at Dennis, and yes there are many there that may not think to fondly of Mases. But that doesn't ultimately matter because Gamnesia is not Zelda Informer.

You mention trolling and yada yada. See, this sort of drama literally can't exist at ZI. Our code of conduct basically eliminates the possibility because it applies to EVERYONE. Is an admin acting against the policy? They will get the boot out of the community just like anyone else.I can't stress enough how much this code of conduct makes it a non issue. That doesn't mean people won't go behind closed doors to try and cause drama. People can be ****ty. But I don't forsee this being a problem. We literally eliminated our massive trolling issue int he past year. If a higher up at Gamnesia wants to come and start attacking us - it's literally a click or two away from not mattering at all. Everyone is expressly aware of this code of conduct, especially those at Gamnesia and on ZI's staff. It's a none starter concern.

I don't care about inter-site politics anymore. I want to move forward, not backwards. Lies, deceit, it doesn't matter today. What does matter is that we stand united moving forward.

Even if the toxicity is diminished from what it was, which I'm inclined to take your word for, I still think it's a very bad idea to merge the forums. I think they should be left as they are now. But also considered just two sections of a new larger community. I don't understand how that can be a problem. We can have members crossover as much as we want or need...

Again, I was and still sort of am against the merger. I just accept that the reality is it's probably happening. As such, I want to make the best of this situation and try to view things in a positive light - what can be beneficial to all in doing this? No one seems to be asking that question, but it's something I am trying to put out there. Chiefly, having a person at the top in myself that views the forums to be as important as say, us posting news. Also, someone who openly converses with the whole and probably does a better job communicating about changes/ideas, etc. IT sounds like these are common complaints here that are virtually addressed in a merge. There may be other things too, but again, I am not en-grained int his community enough to know just yet.

As to this, the main thing that bothers me about how he views it is how he constantly hyperfocuses on the numeber of views per day it gets and not on what it's actually there to do. It's not there to attract droves of viewers, that's what news, social pages, walkthroughs, and the wiki are for. That's their function. Forums are about a community. Views have nothing to do with it.

In a sense, a forum community, just like a comment community or a community on facebook, twitter, tumblr, etc... can't inherently be measured purely by raw numbers. Those numbers really only explain if things are growing, dying, or stagnant. They are vital, but only really one piece of information. He focuses on viewership to ZD because viewership is his livelihood. He makes his living from viewership. With or without the wiki, forums, news, etc - ZD get sso much traffic due to static content that really has absolutely nothing to do with community building that he doesn't need the other stuff. Now he does desire the wiki, but what I am getting at is that the forums aren't really part of his livlihood. That's fine. But he's not going to care as much because he was never a big forum person and forums have nothing to do with ZD's success. It's a very harsh reality, but it's nonetheless true.

Our wiki is near death. As much as Mases wishes to downplay it. It's barely holding on. If anyone who worked on your wiki wants to come to ours, they're more than welcome so long as they hold to the ideals of conduct and community that you've been advocating here. Help is desperately needed. Very desperately. More than anyone cares to admit.

Activity levels are definitely down from what I can see, but I wouldn't quite say it's dead. I think, more or less, a better job can be done fostering wiki growth and support in general from all around the reach available to it (not just forums). I know how to do just that, but I am fairly hands off with wiki stuff since it's not under the ZI umbrella. But I am willing to help in so much as Mases would like me too.

Someone in charge of a forum that isn't just going to ignore a problem and will simply just do something about it is certainly a good thing.

That's just me in general. ;)

I'm going to tell you a secret. The layouts here have been pretty terrible. Not to mention how they hyper-focused on the forums being an isolated entity, ignoring the main site, removing the links to the wiki, and being somewhat.. ridiculous. The new default is okay, but I think it's too flat. Not enough definition. I know Microsoft has a hard-on for that super flat, ultra minimalist design, but I don't like it. I want some definition, some color, some curves, interesting borders, regions shaded different colors. Something when you look at it you say, "that looks really nice and very interesting!" But made with practical effects, not layers of absurd images like Zelda Universe is obsessed with.

Visual design is in the eye of the beholder. I focus more or less on inter-connectivity. Example: http://www.zeldainformer.com/walkthrough/c/links-awakening

That's a walkthrough index page. Notice something? Forum link. Wiki page integration. News. Guides. It's all there (though, I wanted to work more on the forum integration). The point though is that this is the sort of direction I was taking ZI in before it was bought. A similar direction can still be seen moving forward. ZI's board design is just the default IPB design atm. There are many free and paid sklns themselves that are already leagues ahead of what we have. In an ideal world, I'd love to pay about $100 to $200 for someone to create two custom skins for the boards. One that allows people to set their layout more to ZD's current, the other fits more in line with the rest of Zelda Informer. my issue with ZD's current design beyond personal tastes is these boards feel isolated. Where are the game hubs and walkthrough pages? It's like they don't exist. That's bad form IMO (and a current issue wout the default IPB skin).

If you're willing to go the extra mile, that is good. I don't necessarily think it's relevant which system is better though. What matters is how well it is understood. No disrespect to our staff here, but none of them really understand Xenforo. The only one who seemed to really get it was Jamie. And he doesn't want to be involved anymore.You seem to really understand IPB. So in that case it is irrelevant which is better if you are experienced in making it do what you need it to.

I understand Xenforo really well too. But that's not the point really. My point was that I'm dedicated to the success of the boards, meaning any knowledge that is lacking I can help find others that can help with that.

I think you're missing a bit of context. So many here are resentful of DISQUS explicitly because of how much Mases emphasizes with his actions that he cares about it more than he's ever going to care about the forums. He more than once expressed his feelings that forums are an antiquated feature that in the future won't hold a place and instead there'd be comment sections like DISQUS. That is the source of the "DISQUS IS THE FUTURE!" joke. And there's a distinct possibility Mases will complete deny all of that. But as you said, actions speak louder than words and his actions support that he thinks that way.

I figured there was more to it. I just wanted to clear the air over ZI's mentality. I don't fret over what ZD does outside of, at this moment, this forum community.

The other problem is the problem I touched on above that is inherent with comments sections. Because this is the internet, the hugely open and incredibly casual nature of comments sections are magnets for conflict and argument, things that are not necessarily what one would want in a forum. And there's nothing you can do about that without making the comments ridiculously authoritarian like requiring them to be approved before being posted. And personally that degree of censorship turns my stomach in every painful way it can. There should be some degree of connectivity, yes, but there also has to be a floodgate so that not all of that negativity, that no one can do anything about, bleeds through.

Actually, there is something you can do. Enforce your code of conduct. The issue is, most places don't, or they don't even bother to have one. My long standing experience with the ZI comment community and your understanding of what many other sites do are on different spectrum. Other sites don't care about the commenters. I do. We rarely have conflict. Arguments are within reason (and arguments happen on forums a lot. Seen it over and over again at ZU and ZI). Arguments are not wholly negative. You just need to foster the best parts of them and discourage and eliminate the worst. We've done just that at ZI so far and we're not some small place. We're the 2nd largest Zelda site in the world, boasting one of the largest active followings in the world. I hope over time your adversity to commenters changes, because I think you may come to find out that you can also foster wiki growth from them too.

As for the one account thing.... DISQUS doesn't have local accounts. They're global across all of DISQUS on the whole internet. Directly linking to DISQUS isn't exactly a desirable thing. However, you can still give people one single login by simply linking it to Facebook. DISQUS itself uses Facebook as one of its options to log in. And both the forum and the wiki have extensions that can be used to let people log into them with Facebook. Tying in facebook gives the same unified login without automatically opening to door for the worst of the commentors.

ZI has local accounts. When you register at ZI, it doesn't register you at DISQUS. Yet you can still make comments via disqus on our site with your username. So yes, disqus does support local accounts. IGN use to use them too and did the same thing. But it has to go deeper than disqus itself - you have to have full integration into the site. We have that. It's not perfect and could use some tweaks and fixes, but it's there. As for "facebook" - my issue with linking anything through social media channels is that while it should be a method, you are now entirely relying on registration and site connectivity through a third party. Why not also do it locally? Why rely on that? It can be part of, but shouldn't be the foundation of inter-connectivity.

All the segmenting I want is function and very limited in form. But I still want all parts to consider themselves cogs in the same machine that should work together in harmony. I don't think that merging the forums is the only answer. In fact, you having attitudes agreeable to our current ideals only makes that more of a bad idea. Because it seems like it is being done partly for the rational that your forum simply can't survive because it's too small and that it needs an infusion of blood. At least that's what Mases tried to imply in our discussion. I can't say that makes any sense to me. No community will die so long as someone cares about it enough to fight for it. And you certainly look like you can do that. If the forums are left alone as is, both can survive.

We can have survived for years without a thriving forum. It's not "essential" yet. I hope it will be down the road. But, the merger I feel more or less has to do with Mases not needing to manage or worry about forums anymore. Look at some of the dissent here against him - I am sure it's stuff he'd just rather not have to deal with. He admitted he's poor with communication and you can't be that way while fostering a community. I think he knows that. Which is why this merger makes sense for him. Gets everyone that cares to a place where they feeling is mutual from the whole of the site. Takes it almost entirely off his plate once things are moved cleanly. Let's him go back to refocusing on what he wants ZD to be, while he lets ZI take care of the rest. He's fairly "hands off" at ZI. I mean he's around and he talks with people, but he lets us be who we are and lets us run (IE, me and other staff) the show. Now that a merger is off the table, he is more concerned that ZI pushes forward and that he provides whatever he needs to to help that, while he personally focuses most of his work at ZD. What's nice for him in this regard is that ZI has me. In that way, he is less essential to keeping ZI moving forward, but still someone that actively cares. He just needs reminders now and then that traffic is important, but reputation and community matter too and they don't have to be exclusive.

If nothing in this universe can convince Mases to change his mind, which is very likely because, as a rule, he absolutely refuses to listen to anyone, particularly about anything even remotely controversial (which as a rule is what the majority of advice from an adviser such as myself is going to be), then from you I'll require the cooperation I need to support the wiki that previous iterations of the forum staff here never would do. I don't want to do just one thing. And I would hope that as a community, several people could work together to come up with ideas to help it and that they won't just stop with one idea and call it good enough. It needs all the help it can.

I can't talk much about ZD. However, if mases allows me I can greatly help the growth of your wiki with Zelda Informer. Not just increasing google rankings and driving traffic, but help foster a healthy community around it. I just hope you can come to grips over time that in that way, it's not just the forums. Forums are but one tool. It's like bringing a hammer and thinking you can build everything for x with it. You still need other parts.

Only if everyone keeps persisting in the delusion that number of visitors per day are the one and only function of a forum. That has absolutely nothing to do with it. It supports the rest of teh site because it creates a community that can bind together and form a fellowship. When other areas of the site, like walkthroughs, front page, wiki, social sites, look for help, their absolute best source, that is regretabbly untapped, is the forum. Someone you just pick up off the street, as a random hire will probably not stay. Random hires have an extremely high turnover rate. For the wiki, it's absolutely crucial to have a large contributor base that sticks with it long haul. Someone drawn from the existing community, like the forum will be more likely to be valuable and stay and will more likely care about the growth and future of the whole site. THAT is why forums are so valuable. That is their function. That is what people are absolutely refusing to admit. Every single time anyone tries to say what the forums are for, every single time the amount of views per day it gets is all anyone talks about. Those mean nothing. Viewers are the end goal our front end efforts, walkthrough, news, social. They are not important for the inborn community. This does not mean every single individual has to help everything in the site. Just being there helps, because it gives the people who do work on the other parts a place to socialize with a tighter knit community, talk about common goals and interests, and overall support each other. That is something that the THE FUTURE (DISQUS) cannot provide.

Again, this just stems from your complete misunderstanding of not only ZI, but of anything beyond forums. Communities do not exist in forums alone for this stuff. ZI has a really great dedicated staff for walkthroughs, news, editorials, and a wiki. All of that built without a forum community to draw from. According to what you're saying, that's not possible. Yet it happened. ZI is literally where it is today without a forum community to draw off of. In fact, sometimes it's hard to draw from the forum community because while they care, they care more about the forums than necessarily any other part of the site. I am not saying forums can't help. They can. But they are a tool and comment sections are one too. Facebook pages are one. Twitter is one. Tumblr is one. I feel like part of the reason ZD's wiki is losing activity is because of a too narrowed focus outlook here. I have first hand knowledge that what your saying doesn't apply at least at ZI, because we specifically treat our fans respectfully and foster communities where people are. People are in our comments, so we foster it. People are on our facebook page, so we foster it. We don't act like they don't care just as much as someone on the boards. And because of that, we get our best volunteer help from those areas.

And yes, we've talked about common goals and interest both on our facebook page and directly on our front page through the comment section. It can and does work. It may not work at say, IGN, but we're not IGN. We're not Kotaku. We're Zelda Informer. I feel like there is going to be some back and forth on this point, but that's fine. I just hope you can open up a bit more if this merge goes down. Because you seem jaded against something and I don't blame you. ZI is a very unique place when it comes to the community aspect.

I don't think we can know if they are. That's why I think that it is absolutely essential that for now, we simply let the forums exist independently for at least a good long while. And let everyone take time to get to know each other first so we can be sure it'll mesh properly. Instead of Mases's insane plan of just mashing it together and forgetting about it no matter what happens to it. If some come out to help the wiki, which is very badly needed, that can be an opportunity to start getting to know each other and forming a bridge we can use to test the waters. And in any case it'll help the wiki stave off total stagnation.

As of last night (after my posts), I can confirm the merger is still on, but more slowly. It was going to be this week - now it sounds like he's going to slow burn it over the course of 3 to 6 weeks. Probably more likely after the release of TPHD. Just giving time for it to sink in, mostly on this end. Maybe allow me to work closer with the folks here and make this as smooth as we can instead of setting and forgetting.

Holy cow. That's really unbelievable to me. I know the forums aren't as active as they used to be, but damn. I had always thought they were the most used part of the site. I'm really surprised by these stats.

Now I can see why you care about the guides and the main site more. But I really hope that this doesn't make you take the forums any less seriously, especially when you have so many people here who love them and don't want to lose them.

Unless your website's foundation was forums (like Zelda Universe, or say.. NeoGAF that is nothing but a forum), all forum communities pale in comparison to the rest of the site. ZD's popularity is literally solely due to walkthrough rankings in google.It's starting to branch out a bit with the wiki, but the forums even at their peak probably didn't even register for traffic. Just saying. It's hard realizing that at times, but it's the truth. Forums can have good traffic, but they are just a cog of community building. As an example, I mentioned I have used the ZD boards to find inspiration for work I do at ZI. There is inherent value to me in a centralized long form communication area (IE, Forums). Not just for personal inspiration, but because it's just a form of conversation I thoroughly enjoy. I may not like making forums posts quite as big as this one, but we're dealing with something here that is unprecedented in the Zelda community, especially with two of the three giants in the Zelda community.
 
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Let me preface this by saying I appreciate the honesty of the ZI folks who have posted here. I don't know enough about the history here since I've only been a Zelda fan for a year. Still, the above post touches upon a very good point - the ZI forum community is infinitely smaller than the one here on ZD. And let's face it, no matter how good a job the guys who implement the merge do, things WILL be lost and there's nothing you can do about it. Which is why I still believe moving the bigger community over to the smaller one is a really really bad idea. I have no problem with the idea of a merge itself - as I said, I don't know what was going on here years ago and frankly, I don't care. Infact, I wholly support the idea of us joining forces. At the end of the day, we're all Zelda fans, we're all human, so why not be friends? But if we're going to merge, we should do it sensibly. And I honestly don't see how moving from the best forum software out there (let's face it, Xenforo is awesome) for an arbitrary reason such as DISQUS support, which as has been pointed out, isn't even the best option for the interconnectivity that is planned, is the right decision.

Honestly, if ZI "merges into ZD's forums", I can all but guarantee ZI will simply not really even use the boards. I understand why you feel the way you feel though. I mean, that is the logical choice, is it not? But to my end at ZI, all I can say is that we care. So long as it stays here on the ZD banner, we probably won't inherently care as much because it's not part of the larger umbrella and will ultimately be segmented from everything else. If it's segmented, that's a fracture in our fan base and fractures lead to issues long haul. Keep in mind I'd rather not merge the boards at all. But, if a merge happens, I do feel ZD into ZI is best long haul, because you enter a place where you will be cared for versus what many are complaining about here from the top. It's a very harsh change out the gate, but long haul it will be beneficial. Where as, if things just stay here, it will be as if ZI doesn't exist to these community users here.

BUT, it is what it is. Ultimately I'm on the page with most of you. They should remain apart. But if they are to merge, I do see the ZI merger the best option long haul, where as merging ZI to here ends up not actually fixing any of the current issues here, outside of "peace of mind" - and peace of mind is important, but so is the long view. Is ZD really going to change and do anything to help foster this community? Because ZI won't be if it flies under the ZD banner - because we won't be able to uniform the community, hindering what we can do in the first place.

If we go ahead with the merge, but do the more rational option of merging the zI forums over here, moving the smaller community over to the larger one, we can still do a few changes. We can still change to IPB if we want to, it's not like we haven't changed software before. I'm still hesitant to say either software is definitively better than the other, but given that we need to get rid of Xenforo anyway if we want to implement Locke's optimizations, and that it has more options for addons, it should be worth it. And it can certainly suit our purposes so long as the features we've come to expect are added.

And as for the other primary concern, no one in authority giving a damn about the fate of the forums, I think people would be willing to give Nathan a chance at heading it up himself since he's shown he's dedicated, experienced with IPB, and having worked hard to move his moral focus to the very same ideals we ourselves have struggled to achieve here. His presence should ensure that the existing ZI community not only feels welcomed, but as an indistinguishable part of the new whole. And also having him here can help illustrate that it is indeed two sites joined in a union. And not like just one site with a wiki on the side, which essentially is all ZD is going to be if the forums are merged there. The wiki will be the main portal with the walkthroughs being the main draw for viewers. But to the outside observer, it'll just look like ZI acquired ZD and shut down parts of it instead of the other way around. If we merge the other direction, it'll look more like a cooperative endevour.

It certainly would be a far more reasonable course of action than the existing plan.

As I outlined above, I care about the forums. But a lot of that care is that it's under a banner that fosters trust and consistency in community driven works. If it continues to fly under ZD, ultimately I feel like I won't have the ability to do what I feel is right by the community here. Take my code of conduct, it wouldn't fly here in all likelihood and the branding would dissassociate it from the ZI team. Remember, I am the EiC of Zelda Informer, not Zelda Dungeon. If ZI's boards merge here, I probably won't be around much to help. Not trying to be mean about it. Just a reality.

I can't ever connect the fan base that way. But I DO understand why you all feel that way. You should feel that way. If you didn't, I'd be utterly surprised.
 

Jirohnagi

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@Nathanial Rumphol-Janc Heya man ^^ good to see some integration going on so to speak.

I think people on the ZD side of the argument need to shut up and put up, what's done is done now and that's the way it's gotta happen, i'd honestly say be grateful for the fact however late you got the news AT LEAST YOU GOT THE DAMNED NEWS. Now generally i don't care for telling a whole forum to shut up (unless it's SB related) but at this point this is just nit picking. Yeah there's gonna be concerns but i think the main point we all need to keep in mind is that both communities will be getting fresh blood added to their stocks this will to some small or large extent rejuvenate the stagnant pool that is the threads currently, and in all honesty this move WILL benefit us as we all know the Guides are sometimes finicky about explaining something or you might not understand it so where do you go? The forums where enough players have come to and stayed due to the atmosphere.

As for toxicity y'know not all that long ago this forum had this plague of toxicity i term it the meme war for a reason. But it's over now. From what i can see @Nathanial Rumphol-Janc cares about the forums and i've no doubt that once the merge happens he'll be even busier (bad luck buddy) and thus even more in his element.

There a short post among all the long posts....
 
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Honestly, if ZI "merges into ZD's forums", I can all but guarantee ZI will simply not really even use the boards. I understand why you feel the way you feel though. I mean, that is the logical choice, is it not? But to my end at ZI, all I can say is that we care. So long as it stays here on the ZD banner, we probably won't inherently care as much because it's not part of the larger umbrella and will ultimately be segmented from everything else. If it's segmented, that's a fracture in our fan base and fractures lead to issues long haul. Keep in mind I'd rather not merge the boards at all. But, if a merge happens, I do feel ZD into ZI is best long haul, because you enter a place where you will be cared for versus what many are complaining about here from the top. It's a very harsh change out the gate, but long haul it will be beneficial. Where as, if things just stay here, it will be as if ZI doesn't exist to these community users here.

BUT, it is what it is. Ultimately I'm on the page with most of you. They should remain apart. But if they are to merge, I do see the ZI merger the best option long haul, where as merging ZI to here ends up not actually fixing any of the current issues here, outside of "peace of mind" - and peace of mind is important, but so is the long view. Is ZD really going to change and do anything to help foster this community? Because ZI won't be if it flies under the ZD banner - because we won't be able to uniform the community, hindering what we can do in the first place.



As I outlined above, I care about the forums. But a lot of that care is that it's under a banner that fosters trust and consistency in community driven works. If it continues to fly under ZD, ultimately I feel like I won't have the ability to do what I feel is right by the community here. Take my code of conduct, it wouldn't fly here in all likelihood and the branding would dissassociate it from the ZI team. Remember, I am the EiC of Zelda Informer, not Zelda Dungeon. If ZI's boards merge here, I probably won't be around much to help. Not trying to be mean about it. Just a reality.

I can't ever connect the fan base that way. But I DO understand why you all feel that way. You should feel that way. If you didn't, I'd be utterly surprised.

I get your sentiment, but it's not convincing me. You didn't comment about my concerns of losing content, or switching to an inferior software for arbitrary reasons. I do believe you're genuine in saying you want to help the forum community, but does it actually need help? As I said, I haven't been around for long, but during the time I've been here, things have been amazingly positive here. The forum community is absolutely fine as it is, and I don't see any reason to change it. Don't fix what ain't broken, basically. Neither do I see a need to switch forum software, because it's perfectly fine the way it is, and as has been pointed out, a Facebook plugin IS possible with Xenforo, which is in every way a better option than using DISQUS. If there's going to be a merge, come over, be our guests. I don't know enough about the ZI community to be able to pass judgement, nor do I want to. But god****ing damnit, don't destroy what's perfectly fine the way it is for reasons that just don't make any sense.
 

Jirohnagi

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I get your sentiment, but it's not convincing me. You didn't comment about my concerns of losing content, or switching to an inferior software for arbitrary reasons. I do believe you're genuine in saying you want to help the forum community, but does it actually need help? As I said, I haven't been around for long, but during the time I've been here, things have been amazingly positive here. The forum community is absolutely fine as it is, and I don't see any reason to change it. Don't fix what ain't broken, basically. Neither do I see a need to switch forum software, because it's perfectly fine the way it is, and as has been pointed out, a Facebook plugin IS possible with Xenforo, which is in every way a better option than using DISQUS. If there's going to be a merge, come over, be our guests. I don't know enough about the ZI community to be able to pass judgement, nor do I want to. But god****ing damnit, don't destroy what's perfectly fine the way it is for reasons that just don't make any sense.

Why curse or jump down his throat the poor buggers in the same boat as us. And if i remember right the Admins/mods or whoever it was said they'd try and keep the posts. And in the long run the posts honestly mean crap at this point. and that's coming from a guy whose been here almost 6 years.

FYI this forum isn't perfect as it is. If it were perfect we'd have far more people showing up.

You may not see the need to switch forum software but obviously there is a reason, just because we the people do not know doesn't mean there isn't one.

I also think given enough time in the teams possession (both sides of the fence) i highly doubt the forum will retain either side of the software, chance are good someone'll argue @Mases around to change it up to something else.

Also in a merge why should they have to merge with us? They have far less reason to do so than us. As you say you know nothing of those in the ZI community. They do not know much of us bar the few who've visited the forums over there. Maybe before taking that stance Soul you should go visit instead of arguing.
 
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