Skyward Sword ZD Community Gives No Love to SS? :(

[JuicieJ]

I really think those codec hints shouldn't be compared to Fi, especially because It doesn't happen that often. Actually, the only time I remember It offering suggestions was on MGS1 when It told you where to get meryl codec, but unlike dowsing, that was kinda necessary, most people would never have noticed that It was on the game package.

I was actually referring to the entire series. It happens a lot in 3 and 4.

 

[DarkestLink]

Darkest Link: I don't get you, to the point where I'm not sure If you're trolling or being serious. Actually, I'm not even sure If you're defending dowsing or not anymore.

I never was defending dowsing....

Your arguments are pretty much base on the impossibility of exploring the map for some mysterious reason.

It's possible...but boring and offers no actual challenge. Imagine if you couldn't use dowsing and they just let players find the Silent Realm.

Player A warped to the entrance (Sealing Grounds)

Player B warped near the Silent Realm.

Player A searches all around the Sealing Grounds, finds nothing, searches aimlessly throughout the forest, feeling bored by now, and after 40 minutes, he finds the starting area.

Player B happens to spot the Silent Realm immediately.

Now where either of them challenged? No. Player B was lucky. And Player A was just trolled until he got lucky. Wandering around aimlessly takes no skill. In the end, dowsing replaces clues and hints, basically small puzzles that take some brain power and replace it with something mindless. Now it's your choice...do this mindless activity for 5 minutes and find your area or...look around aimlessly and bore yourself for 5 minutes to an hour. Neither are gonna challenge you. Which one do you pick?

Oddly enough, you're defending how dowsing not really being optional due to the game constantly reminding you of It, feels like an argument someone against dowsing would use, not you.

I am against dowsing. It's mindless. It replaces something that offered challenge and brainwork.

@DarkestLink: Comparing a lot of those things to the optional nature of dowsing was a bad move. I doubt anyone here would go so far as to say that items like the Master Sword and the Boomerang are optional in their respective games; however, dowsing was. The fact of the matter is that NOTIFICATIONS are what is not optional. You can't turn them off. So in a nutshell, aside from a few instances sprinkled about, dowsing is an optional function (at least in most cases) [despite of the fact that you cannot turn NOTIFICATIONS off].

Sure they were. Once you finished the second dungeon, the only use for the boomerang was to fight enemies and own them on a laughable scale. And the Master Sword? Easily more optional than dowsing. You're forced to use it...one time...in both OoT and TP. And there is no encouragement to use either outside of...y'know...common sense. Whereas dowsing is needed multiple times (especially on a first play through). And you are getting told time and time that it's there to use. Heck, you even get punished for not using it (the punishment being, Fi interrupts your game to tell you to use it).

I did it for the extra challenge. It wasn't too difficult. After hitting it once, subsequent shots were a piece of cake. Just keep shooting. It's a pretty big ship...

The challenge...of being lucky enough to hit the ship? That sounds as silly as bragging about the challenge of winning the lottery.

So? Those are just when you unlock them. Dowsing is a completely optional tool, and is never stressed for sidequests.

4 interruptions in my game to tell me to use dowsing for sidequests is borderline begging to me. Even Navi wasn't this annoying in the Deku Tree.

If you think the game's too easy, then Nintendo lets you make it harder.

Somehow I doubt that is what they had in mind. Regardless, an easy game is an easy game no matter how much you personally want to challenge yourself.

Dowsing is never required to proceed. It is highly recommended, and intended, but never required.

I think I've told you why it doesn't matter.

If dowsing was actually forced, meaning you had no choice but to use it, your complaints would be warranted.

That brings another complaint to mind. In previous Zelda games, you were given riddles, puzzles, clues, etc to find things, to solve problems, and to beat sidequests. Instead of this, our only tool is dowsing. Whether I use it or not is irrelevant. It still replaces all of the old clues and brain teasers I enjoyed from previous games. So rather than solve something, I am given two new choices. 1) Follow Jack Sparrow's Magic Compass 2) Wander around aimlessly without rhyme or reason until you find something.

If it took something a ridiculously long time without dowsing, or it was really that difficult, your complaints would be warranted as well, but it isn't really that much harder.

So you were lucky enough to find that ship in the entire sea (BTW the ship moves) by pure luck in 5 minutes or so?

Considering the option is always there, if you're unwilling to make the game harder for yourself, then you have no right to complain about it being to easy, especially when the game freely lets you choose whether or not to use it. It's never forced, and still easily possible without it.

A game's difficulty isn't based on my imagination and how far I went out of my way to make it harder, it's based on how hard the game actually is, assuming you played it as intended. No handicaps against you or glitches for you.

 

[Blu Ray]

DarkestLink, I'm against dowsing too, but I still have to completely disagree with your arguments. People already took down most of them and you're pretty much just repeating the same things over and over again. In case you haven't noticed, I get It that you wouldn't like to explore all the map to find silent realms, but believe It or not, THATS AN EXTREMELY EASY TASK. Get pretty much any Zeldaand It will most likely require more exploration than SS without dowsing, yet nobody complained about It.

It's possible...but boring and offers no actual challenge. Imagine if you couldn't use dowsing and they just let players find the Silent Realm.

Player A warped to the entrance (Sealing Grounds)

Player B warped near the Silent Realm.

Player A searches all around the Sealing Grounds, finds nothing, searches aimlessly throughout the forest, feeling bored by now, and after 40 minutes, he finds the starting area.

Player B happens to spot the Silent Realm immediately.

Now where either of them challenged? No. Player B was lucky. And Player A was just trolled until he got lucky. Wandering around aimlessly takes no skill. In the end, dowsing replaces clues and hints, basically small puzzles that take some brain power and replace it with something mindless. Now it's your choice...do this mindless activity for 5 minutes and find your area or...look around aimlessly and bore yourself for 5 minutes to an hour. Neither are gonna challenge you. Which one do you pick?

Dowsing replaces exploration, not puzzles, It doesn't help at all with puzzles. As for exploration being boring, maybe that's just not your thing, but I love It and It used to be a big part of Zelda, If you don't like It, go play CoD or w/e. Wind Waker has WAY MORE exploration than Skyward Sword WITHOUT DOWSING, It can take you a very long time to find everything on the ocean, there are lot's of islands and boats that are easy to miss.
Oh, and please, QUIT USING THAT SILENT REALM IS TOO HARD TO FIND ARGUMENT. This is exacly why I highly believe you're contradicting yourself, you're against dowsing yet you're against exploring too, seriously, did you ever play any other zelda game? It feels like you want something linear and obvious to the point where dowsing would no longer be required, thats actually much worse than dowsing.

You have no idea how hard It is to take your posts seriously when you're pretty much recycling your arguments over and over again and contradicting yourself. Seriously, we might aswell just quit this, repeating that silent realm is hard to find without dowsing will get us nowhere.

 

[JuicieJ]

Get pretty much any Zeldaand It will most likely require more exploration than SS without dowsing, yet nobody complained about It.

Skyward Sword had more exploration than almost every other modern title. Honestly, only The Minish Cap outdoes it in that regard. It wasn't anywhere close to the classic games, but still.

 

[Random Person]

Yeah... those are the instances where dowsing is kinda mandatory. I am almost certain that most people [in this thread] don't mind a bit of help from dowsing to be too awful; they seem to just have a problem with it if it completely governs the entire game, which I personally think it does not. I still hold fast to my opinion that it is at least 90-ish% optional, but I'd still be content with it even if it weren't... Ugh... now if only I could away with those intrusive notifications. Lol...

Here's the thing though, most of us (well, atleast me) don't really care that dowsing is mandatory and this is what confuses the argument. We say that "dowsing makes the game easy" and are countered with "its optional so it doesn't count". Because of that, we nay-sayers go into a long explanation of why even though it is optional, it is meant to be used like a grenade in an FPS. Then the argument suddenly shifts to "why are you so upset that dowsing isn't optional?" WE'RE NOT! (Because I speak for everyone![/sarcasm]) We're just trying to prove that while it is optional, the game wants us to use it and therefore should be incorporated when registering the game's difficulty. I DON'T CARE THAT DOWSING IS BEING PUSHED ON ME. I care that it made the game easier and lack-luster in exploration and am using it being a heavily implied gameplay mechanic to back that up. The only reason I even bring up that its being pushed on the player is because the opposing argument insists that my argument doesn't count unless it's forced.

 

[DarkestLink]

DarkestLink, I'm against dowsing too, but I still have to completely disagree with your arguments. People already took down most of them and you're pretty much just repeating the same things over and over again. In case you haven't noticed, I get It that you wouldn't like to explore all the map to find silent realms, but believe It or not, THATS AN EXTREMELY EASY TASK.

...So you concede it's not challenging either way. But one way takes far more time (unless you're lucky). Neither offer a fun gameplay value or challenge.

Dowsing replaces exploration, not puzzles, It doesn't help at all with puzzles.

It replaces, both, but, as many have said, it is optional. So more than anything, it replaces the puzzles. You can still technically explore, but the hints you would be given as to where to go next are replaced by dowsing.

As for exploration being boring, maybe that's just not your thing, but I love It and It used to be a big part of Zelda, If you don't like It, go play CoD or w/e. Wind Waker has WAY MORE exploration than Skyward Sword WITHOUT DOWSING, It can take you a very long time to find everything on the ocean, there are lot's of islands and boats that are easy to miss.

Actually, it's funny you mentioned Wind Waker. Wind Waker is on the opposite side of the spectrum. Skyward Sword had too little exploration because of dowsing. Wind Waker, on the other hand, had far too much. There needs to be a balance. Skyward Sword gave too much direction and Wind Waker gave too little. In games like OoT, it was more balanced. It gave you basic goals without saying too much.

You are directed to go see Zelda, but you are left to figure the method of doing so yourself. You are pointed to Death Mountain, but get a suggestion to settle down and explore Kakariko first. Navi hints talking to Saria. When the 2nd dungeon is done, you can ask around and get hints. Saria tells you to go to Zora's domain. When you are an adult, you are told you need an item in Kakariko. People in Kakariko are discussing this item Dampe has. 2 and 2 together. It's more fun and interesting than having some flashing arrow pointing you exactly where to go and better than just running around aimlessly trying to discern the main quest from the sidequests.

Oh, and please, QUIT USING THAT SILENT REALM IS TOO HARD TO FIND ARGUMENT. This is exacly why I highly believe you're contradicting yourself, you're against dowsing yet you're against exploring too,

Again, balance. I just want something else to lead me. Just dowsing and just exploring are both too mindless.

You have no idea how hard It is to take your posts seriously when you're pretty much recycling your arguments over and over again and contradicting yourself. Seriously, we might aswell just quit this, repeating that silent realm is hard to find without dowsing will get us nowhere.

It's not too hard. It's too long.

In the end, there are three scenarios. Imagine Sheik giving us advice.

Scenario One: Go to Kakariko village and obtain something to help you into the Forest Temple.

This is the balanced approach. You have the basic idea, but not too much information.

Scenario Two: Go to Kakariko village. Go to the Graveyard. Go to your very far left and pull the most southern tombstone, you will find Dampe. Go race him. If you survive, you will get the Hookshot. Go back to the Kokori forest. Keep in mind that there are now monsters in there. Go to the Lost Woods. When you see Mido, play Saria's Song and he will move aside. Continue going to the Scared Forest Meadow. After we meet there, use your new hookshot on the tree branch and enter the temple.

This is way too much information and takes out the fun in figuring this out yourself. This is basically what dowsing did. Instead of putting clues together, we just followed a guide.

Scenario Three: Go to the Forest Temple.

Not enough direction. We could probably assume that the Forest Temple is in the Kokori woods, but once we find it, we would be unable to enter due to our lack of hookshot. After several tries to get into this temple, I would assume I simply am not meant to enter "this cave" yet and look for the REAL entrance to the Forest Temple (we still don't know where that is). With luck, I might pass through Kakariko village. I will see them talking about Dampe. Since I was not directed here, I'm going to assume this is a sidequest. Finally, after some mind numbing senseless exploration, I just give up and start doing sidequests. A few days later when I'm playing OoT, I find Dampe's grave and decide to do the "sidequest". I find this hookshot. I still haven't realized that I'm supposed to use it to get into the temple. Because right now, I'm assuming it only works on those targets. After finding the iron boots and trying to use the door in the Lost Wood's lake (thinking it could be the temple) and ending up in Zora's Domain, I explore the woods more and finally see the ledge again. I try everything out once more and, to my surprise, find that the hookshot works on this tree that I thought was there for decoration. Finally in the temple. Overall, I'm not feeling happy right now. I wasn't challenged. I was just left in the dark and lucky I finally started to do some sidequests. Otherwise, I'd have never stumbled onto Dampe. Heck, seeing as I prefer to leave sidequests for last, it might have taken me even more senseless exploration to get into the temple.

 

[Tearbender]

Dowsing really doesn't make the game any easier tbh. Most of the times you used dowsing, it gave u a general direction. I had to explore a bit to find kikwis, the sand ship, silent realms, but at times could be useful. Exploration at times no matter what game, it can get tedious. I thought dowsing was a good tool to use to make it quicker, but not give u the exact location. You still had to search, but it made it less tedious and helped you. I thought it was a good feature, my gripe with it is that Fi's beeping. God that pisses me off. While using dowsing made things easier to find(as intended), its still optional. I mean I just wish that Fi wouldn't beep after dowsing is suggested. Really I had no problem her telling you that you got a new dowsing target, but I wish she could have been like "Master, [Insert person/item] has been added as a dowsing target if you would like to dowse" or something like that. Make it more obvious to the player that its not necessary, but is ready if you want to use it. I don't mind her dialogue for it, its her beeping that annoys me.

 

[Wasteland Dream]

It was just a wholly boring game and the community will give more love to more appealing and entertaining games in the series as a result. The rift in the community over Skyward Sword is the apparent proof of a chink in the game's armor as to how appealing it is compared to previous releases.

 

[Blu Ray]

DarkestLink: Dowsings in a way, gives you too many hints. As for puzzles, that doesn't make much sense, did you somehow use dowsing to make Sky Keep easier? I think not, because It doesn't help you with puzzle, It just gives you location.

The example you gave of OoT was actually the main story right? Not sidequest. Well, in that case, It's pretty obvious what to do next on WW too, really shouldn't take you much effort to figure out, It's just that exploring the ocean to get everything takes time. While I have to agree WW had a bit too much exploration I'd have to say I loved It, you may find It boring, but let's not get into opinion war right? Besides, I believe 100%ing a game should be hard, SS made It too easy.

As for the scenarios you created, main story wise, Wind Waker was just as hard as OoT. Side quest wise, very challenging due to too much exploration on a huge ocean, but unlike dowsing, side quests doesn't affect how the main game works, you can just ignore and you'll most likely not feel a direct impact of not doing them (unliked dowsing with those fetch quests), sure, maybe you'll have less heartpieces and you'll be missing some of the optional items, but in terms of battle, Zelda just isn't challenging enough for you to need all those heart pieces and items for boss battles.

Dowsing really doesn't make the game any easier tbh. Most of the times you used dowsing, it gave u a general direction. I had to explore a bit to find kikwis, the sand ship, silent realms, but at times could be useful. Exploration at times no matter what game, it can get tedious. I thought dowsing was a good tool to use to make it quicker, but not give u the exact location. You still had to search, but it made it less tedious and helped you. I thought it was a good feature, my gripe with it is that Fi's beeping. God that pisses me off. While using dowsing made things easier to find(as intended), its still optional. I mean I just wish that Fi wouldn't beep after dowsing is suggested. Really I had no problem her telling you that you got a new dowsing target, but I wish she could have been like "Master, [Insert person/item] has been added as a dowsing target if you would like to dowse" or something like that. Make it more obvious to the player that its not necessary, but is ready if you want to use it. I don't mind her dialogue for it, its her beeping that annoys me.

Both me and Random Person already explained how dowsing isn't exacly optional and how It directly affects difficulty and gameplay. I don't feel like getting over this again, but It's more like an fact than anything. If those changes dowsing created are good or not, that's another subject and all a matter of opinion.

It was just a wholly boring game and the community will give more love to more appealing and entertaining games in the series as a result. The rift in the community over Skyward Sword is the apparent proof of a chink in the game's armor as to how appealing it is compared to previous releases.

Skyward Sword was plenty of fun. I also enjoy the older Zeldas with more exploration so I wouldn't like Nintendo to quit on that, but I really wouldn't mind more SS like Zeldas, even If It still had dowsing, afterall, allt he Zeldas have flaws to me, even OoT.

 

[Tearbender]

But still, I don't get how dowsing makes the game easier by any means. Sure there were some instances where it was easy with it, but it was more of an aid than anything. It pointed u in the general direction where you were supposed to go. Like I said, they should have specified it, but it didn't go lower the game's difficulty at all.

 

[Shroom]

I wasn't quite fond of it, but I think dowsing was somewhat justifiable in SS.

The ground areas were meant to be open and huge, so rather than send you on a huge exploration and hope you're in the right spot it sends you to a said area. There wasn't really another way that would make sense storyline wise to send you to these areas. The people of the sky know practically nothing about the land below, and Link has no real other people to turn for guidance. Impa is busy protecting Zelda for the better half of the game, the land species only vaguely know about things, and Sacred Realm wise, had no reason to know about certain things.

Again, I'm really not fond of it, and likewise hate how it was shoved down my throat, but I still think it's defendable in the game.