Xenoblade Chronicles X

[Frozen Chosen]

I understand that, but if I had to choose one gripe I'd either pick the fact that some graphics don't load very fast or the fact that Elma and Lin are needed for almost every mission, so there's no reason to ever take them out. I don't mind having Elma in my party all the time, but I despise Lin, and hope she dies (Don't know yet, I'm on chapter 8)

My theory is that Lin is secretly a 40 year old man... Spoilers

 

[Triforce King]

My theory is that Lin is secretly a 40 year old man... Spoilers

DUDE WHY THE HELL WOULD YOU DO THAT!!!

 

[the8thark]

Are you being purposely obtuse? It's different from Xenoblade because in Xenoblade you didn't have to explore a set percentage of the region. How is that difficult for you to see? I don't understand how you can't differentiate between the two. Take Gaur Plains, for example. Xenoblade didn't make you explore 10% or 20% of Gaur Plains to progress. You explored what you needed to in order to progress, not what you were forced to. If you wanted to explore more, and discover new areas, you could. And often, you would get stomped by high-level enemies. But that was the price you paid for being given the freedom to explore at your own pace.

XC is many different smaller areas for which you have to enter most or all of them to beat the game. You can not choose to skip entering Gaur Plains at all. The game forces you to enter Gaur Plains to progress in the game. What if you do not want to explore Gaur Plains at all or you want to explore other areas first? You can not. XC forces this on you. It's a rather linear progression through the areas in XC.

XC forces it's linear progression of zones and forces you to enter each zone a little. How much is defined by the main story quests. You are correct in saying you get to choose how much of each zone you want to explore. But that amount has to be a non zero number. You can not skip a zone if you feel like it.
XCX is different but has a simialr mechanic. It also forces you to enter certain areas. Which ones? That's totally up to you. If you do not want to enter one part of a continent till later, you can do that. XCX fprces you to explore a certain amount but what you explore is up to you.

(1) I don't hate XCX for being XCX. I really love this game. I've spend 35 hours playing it, and I don't plan on stopping. What I am doing is pointing out what I -- and many other people -- see as really strange design decisions the developers decided to take. They are nonsensical because they really impede the enjoyment of the game. A lot of people that I've talked to, not just in forums like this one, but in real life, are so intent on defending this game no matter what that they refuse to accept that there are flaws, or they pretend the flaws are actually a good thing.

I know you do. Most of us here do. XCX in an amazing game. XCX does have flaws, every game in existance does, no game is perfect. So in that vain I agree with you.
I do not see the exploration in XCX as a flaw though. Personally I like it. I am not just on a sightseeing tour. I have probes to put down and side quests and other things to do, to get each hexagon ticked off. To me getting each hexagon ticked off is the main point to the game. The story is just a side bonus.

If the game really wanted to reward exploration, then just seeing part of the map would suffice. But that's not what it's about. It's really about placing probes. And even the argument that it furthers the story is flawed as I pointed out above.

If the game was just about exploring without any point at all, just a sightseeing tour, I'd not have bought the game. Exploring while working towards an exploration goal is cool. I liked it.

(3) I don't hate that exploration is the main way to progress. I hate how exploration is presented and forced. I've said this before already as well: I love exploring. I would explore regardless. I explored in Xenoblade. I spent an actual, real life year and a half exploring Vvardenfell before I even started the main story in Morrowind. What I don't like is being told I have to explore in order to do a mission, especially when it's gotten to the point where it feels like a chore. And I'm not the only one who feels this way. It's not that the game is bad, it's just a bad mechanic.

Exploration is gated in XC as well. You have progress through the zones in a linear fashion. You can not go directly from Colony 9 to the Mechanis right away. There is a lot of story you have to do first. Both XC and XCX force you to explore different areas to progress. Each game just does it in a different way.

I don't disagree with anything you said here. One of the most satisfying moments in Xenoblade was finally being high enough level to explore parts of the original area. Right from the start, there were enemies in that first zone that were too strong. And finally being strong enough to take them on and see what was beyond them was an incredible and satisfying experience. I'm not getting that here. It's like they took that wonder and mystery and that sense of satisfaction, and tried to force it on you. That's the theme with this game. I don't need the game design to force enjoyment on me. I can get it on my own. And I'm not getting it by being forced to get it.

You are correct but XC is not based on single areas. The Colony 9 area is just the begining of this game. You can not enter the Gaur Plains unless you do some story quests first. The way to the
Gaur Plains is blocked off initally. It only opens up later on. Within each are in XC you are free to explore but there are progression barriers to get from one area to the next in XC. Lots of them. Mostly story progression is required, ie just playing the game.
I wanted to enter the Gaur Plains really early on but the game told me - No, do the story first to access Gaur Plains. This is no different to having to explore a certain amount of Mira to progress. Be it story quests in XC or exploration in XCX, both gate you from prrogressing further in the game till you do it first.

Allow me to use Morrowind as an example again. In Morrowind, you had to be a certain rank in a guild to continue the quest. In order to advance in rank your skills had to be at a certain level. The skills were determined by what guild you were in. For example, the Morag Tong required Sneak, Small Blade, etc.. Just what you'd expect from an assassin's guild. If your skills were too low, they wouldn't advance you in rank. If you didn't advance in rank, you didn't get new missions. Not only does that make sense from an in-world perspective, but it makes sense from a gameplay perspective. You're not going to get harder missions until your skills are high enough.

That's just more game content gating. Why should you be forced to have a certain skill to get more ranks in a guild? That's not fair, we should be able to always progress in any guild no matter what.
Sound familiar? That's because it is. Almost every game has you do things to progress in the game and see more of the game. Most of it is forced but that's how games are. You have to play the game (ie do what the main purpose of the game is) to progress in it. The few exceptions are ultra sandbox games like Minecraft. But even in Minecraft you are forced to make a bed and a torch on the first day to protect yourself from the night monsters. You can't explore without first setting up a base camp. Even more exploration gating.

there is literally a base camp 50 feet from the probe location

This could have been easily fixed. The gane sets up an outpost when you place the probe. That would have made more sense.
Also having to find a clock building to change the time is crap in my opinion. Just allow the player to change time anywhere like in XC.

There's a lot to love about this game. As I said, I'm 35 hours in, and I'm enjoying 85% of what I've seen and done. But unlike some people, I can't pretend that some of these glaring flaws are actually good game design. They aren't. Defending bad game design makes no sense to me. I'm not hating on the game. I'm just voicing my dislike for design flaws that I, and dozens of other people I've talked to, see in the game.

What you are taking about here is the extremely polarising part of XCX. Some people will love the game design and think having a progression to the exploration is amazing. Others will think it's bad game design because you can not explore the whole 5 continents from the instand you step foot into Mira. Neither side is wrong, just different view points.

 

[CrimsonCavalier]

I understand that, but if I had to choose one gripe I'd either pick the fact that some graphics don't load very fast or the fact that Elma and Lin are needed for almost every mission, so there's no reason to ever take them out. I don't mind having Elma in my party all the time, but I despise Lin, and hope she dies (Don't know yet, I'm on chapter 8)

I hate her as well. First, she's always the first in my party to die, if anyone is going to die. Second, she brings Tatsu with her for some reason. Why? No one knows. My preferred party would be Elma, Lao and Doug. Doug cracks me up.

XC is many different smaller areas for which you have to enter most or all of them to beat the game. You can not choose to skip entering Gaur Plains at all. The game forces you to enter Gaur Plains to progress in the game. What if you do not want to explore Gaur Plains at all or you want to explore other areas first? You can not. XC forces this on you. It's a rather linear progression through the areas in XC.

First, can I just say I always look forward to reading your replies. I really mean that.

Ok. So, you're right. But XCX is also forcing you to go into each area. I don't think I expressed my point very well in the post you're quoting. I'm not saying XC was not linear. I'm not saying that at all. I'm not complaining that XCX is or isn't linear either.

XC forces it's linear progression of zones and forces you to enter each zone a little. How much is defined by the main story quests. You are correct in saying you get to choose how much of each zone you want to explore. But that amount has to be a non zero number. You can not skip a zone if you feel like it. XCX is different but has a simialr mechanic. It also forces you to enter certain areas. Which ones? That's totally up to you. If you do not want to enter one part of a continent till later, you can do that. XCX fprces you to explore a certain amount but what you explore is up to you.

XC also did not force you to enter all areas of a region. In fact, there were regions that were totally optional. You never had to go to them, ever. XCX is no different in that respect. Or rather, you're making it seem like XCX is somehow better because it let's you choose where to go and when, where XC did the same thing.

I know you do. Most of us here do. XCX in an amazing game. XCX does have flaws, every game in existance does, no game is perfect. So in that vain I agree with you. I do not see the exploration in XCX as a flaw though. Personally I like it. I am not just on a sightseeing tour. I have probes to put down and side quests and other things to do, to get each hexagon ticked off. To me getting each hexagon ticked off is the main point to the game. The story is just a side bonus. If the game was just about exploring without any point at all, just a sightseeing tour, I'd not have bought the game. Exploring while working towards an exploration goal is cool. I liked it.

See, I feel the exact opposite for the same reasons. The story is an afterthought. I'm forced to explore. Those two reasons right there are why it feels like a sight-seeing tour. I don't feel compelled to progress through the game. In other words, the game is not giving me any motivation to finish it. I'm doing it because I want to.

You are correct but XC is not based on single areas. The Colony 9 area is just the begining of this game. You can not enter the Gaur Plains unless you do some story quests first. The way to the Gaur Plains is blocked off initally. It only opens up later on. Within each are in XC you are free to explore but there are progression barriers to get from one area to the next in XC. Lots of them. Mostly story progression is required, ie just playing the game. I wanted to enter the Gaur Plains really early on but the game told me - No, do the story first to access Gaur Plains. This is no different to having to explore a certain amount of Mira to progress. Be it story quests in XC or exploration in XCX, both gate you from prrogressing further in the game till you do it first.

And being able to go any continent from the beginning is a really cool mechanic. I don't have an issue with that at all. However, my point is better served after the next paragraph:

That's just more game content gating. Why should you be forced to have a certain skill to get more ranks in a guild? That's not fair, we should be able to always progress in any guild no matter what. Sound familiar? That's because it is. Almost every game has you do things to progress in the game and see more of the game. Most of it is forced but that's how games are. You have to play the game (ie do what the main purpose of the game is) to progress in it. The few exceptions are ultra sandbox games like Minecraft. But even in Minecraft you are forced to make a bed and a torch on the first day to protect yourself from the night monsters. You can't explore without first setting up a base camp. Even more exploration gating.

Of course it is. And I said that I don't mind content gating. I don't mind being told "Hold on, you need to be stronger to do the next set of quests." In fact, I said that very thing. What I don't like is the way XCX is doing it.

And the reasons are many. I said them in my reply to Frozen Chosen. It feels artificial. There's no point in telling the player that he or she has to explore a set % of the map. It serves no purpose from a gameplay perspective or from an immersion perspective. It's simply content gating for the sake of content gating, or worse: it's the developers knowing their game is lacking in content and thus forcing the player to "enjoy" their beautiful world. Either way, it's a bad way to block your progress.

RPGs ALWAYS have your progress blocked off one way or another. How the progress is blocked and how the player removes the bonds and marches onward is one of the key aspects of RPG game design, and in this particular instance, I think Monolith Soft failed.

 

[the8thark]

First, can I just say I always look forward to reading your replies. I really mean that.

Likewise. I like that you explain your points very well. Not everyone agrees with the, but you take the time to explain and not say "XCX sucks" without any more information given. I do look forward to reading your comments here too.

I will agree with you and say the story quests feel like an after thought. I think the world and quest idea was made and Monolithsoft realised they had to give the game some sort of story so they did. It's not a great main story but it's there.

I think after everything we both have said, there is one clear conclusion. That being that the slow progression of exploration required to progress the game is very polarising. Some people like the idea and other people do not. I can see why they did it, to get people to immerse themselves in the game's rich scenery and very well done normal and affinity quests. But I guess there could have been a better way of doing it to progress in the storyline. It's not linear like XC. It's not zone/level based like World of Warcraft. I think this is the best Monolithsoft could come up with at the time. I don't see any other way for this type of progression to work. That being the game based on the exploration and side quests and less on the main story quests.

There is certainly no lack of content in XCX. It rivals Hyrule Warriors on content. Possibly even more than Hyrule Warriors. To me I think it comes down to an aexthetics issue. You must explore to put down probes so the NLA people can scan the parts of each continent. That makes sense. This breaks down when you see all these humans all over the 5 continents in their outposts, we wonder why they are lazy annd not putting up probes. I think they serve just as clocks to change the time. Pointless in my opinion, just do it like XC and have changing time a menu option. Actually I used to change time all the time in XC but in XCX, so far I've only had to do it once. That little but was not thought through well.

Sure XCX is not perfect and it seems like I am having a go at it a lot. But to me these are all really minor issues. The game is so fun I can deal with all of that. None of it is a dealbreaker for me. In my opinion Monolithsoft did not fail, it just got many things right and a few things a little wrong. That's all.

*****************

Say we removed the exploration requirement for the story quests. What other requirements would we have for the story quests?

• Character Level?
• Blade Division Level?
• Number of quests done?
• Something else?

Or maybe even have no gating for the story quests at all. Then people would complain that they tried to rush through the story quests and died hard cause they were too low a level. That too is gating, just another form. It's a tough question with no ideal answer in my opinion.

 

[Kylo Ken]

Yeah, Doug is awesome. Lao, ehh, he always screws things up, like Lin. Actually, I wouldn't have a third party member of Lin was out, probably Irina or Gwin. Now that I think of it, you can get done pretty messed up party members.

Anyway, finally got the flight module for my skell. Flying is sweet.

 

[CrimsonCavalier]

*****************

Say we removed the exploration requirement for the story quests. What other requirements would we have for the story quests?

• Character Level?
• Blade Division Level?
• Number of quests done?
• Something else?

Or maybe even have no gating for the story quests at all. Then people would complain that they tried to rush through the story quests and died hard cause they were too low a level. That too is gating, just another form. It's a tough question with no ideal answer in my opinion.

I think BLADE level or character level would be just fine. I don't mind having to do certain side quests before you can continue the main quest, even though some of them seem completely irrelevant. Like the Irene quest you have to do before you do chapter 4 or whatever it is. Why that quest in particular? It's not like she's in the next chapter. Makes no sense.

I don't mind having to be a minimum level. Like I said, I found that to be acceptable in Morrowind.

But I think that if you're going to be forced to explore, placing probes should at least give you XP.

I do think the game has a ton of failures. Actual things that make the game bad. I'll give you another one: "hidden" enemies. Like the bats you can see hanging from the ceiling, but can't target. Why can't I target them? I have to walk by them, wake them up, get flinched, and then take them on. That makes absolutely no sense. If I can see the stupid thing, why I can't I attack it? And why am I getting flinched by a level 13 when I'm level 27? That to me makes the [forced] exploration even more tedious. The rock-turtles. The false plants. The bats. The moths on the wall. All of those creatures make it a chore to explore certain areas.

That said, I just got my Skell, and I can honestly say the game just got 100x more awesome. I know it's just the starter one, and it sucks, but I'm having an absolute blast just jumping around and exploring. NOW I'm having fun exploring.

Yeah, Doug is awesome. Lao, ehh, he always screws things up, like Lin. Actually, I wouldn't have a third party member of Lin was out, probably Irina or Gwin. Now that I think of it, you can get done pretty messed up party members.

Anyway, finally got the flight module for my skell. Flying is sweet.

Lao hasn't been so bad for me. I like that quiet, reserved character anyways. Mysterious past, but always gets the job done. Gwin is ok, but when I finally found him and Irina, they were so underleveled that it wasn't worth it. Which is a shame, because I like their Class. I would use them more, but it would take literal hours to get them leveled up to a point where I could take them questing with me.

 

[the8thark]

That said, I just got my Skell, and I can honestly say the game just got 100x more awesome. I know it's just the starter one, and it sucks, but I'm having an absolute blast just jumping around and exploring. NOW I'm having fun exploring.

When that Skell can fly you'll be having FUN Exploring as apposed to just plain old fun.
I would not know, I do not even have a skell yet. I can only play on the weekend thanks to work.

 

[CrimsonCavalier]

When that Skell can fly you'll be having FUN Exploring as apposed to just plain old fun.
I would not know, I do not even have a skell yet. I can only play on the weekend thanks to work.

Worth it. I'm on semester break and I'm getting to play to my little heart's content. I have to enjoy it now because once I start back up in January I'll be in your shoes. I'm 50+ hours now.

Something everyone should be aware of: just because an enemy doesn't notice you in the Skell doesn't mean it won't notice you OUT of it. Or rather, just because an enemy thinks "I had better not attack you while you're in a Skell", they will totally change their minds if you exit. Just learned that the hard way.

 

[Kylo Ken]

It's too bad you can't create your own Conquest Squad, we could have something really good going.

 

[CrimsonCavalier]

Just so everyone knows: be careful around the bottomless pit in Oblivia. If you give your party members brand new Skells, they can and will walk off the cliff with it and destroy it.

 

[Frozen Chosen]

You have insurance, right? If someone from your party destroys it, you can get it replaced for free.

 

[Kylo Ken]

They always get replaced for free. I got one that I wrecked like 6 times and the value next to Skell Insurance doesn't change.

 

[Frozen Chosen]

I believe if you destroy it, then the insurance number goes down. But if someone in your party destroys it, you'll get it replaced for free without wasting the insurance value. At least that's how it has worked for me.

 

[Ronin]

Just so everyone knows: be careful around the bottomless pit in Oblivia. If you give your party members brand new Skells, they can and will walk off the cliff with it and destroy it.

Yeah, I accidentally drove off a deadend path that I thought kept going; tried to jump back up but just slid right to the bottom of the Yawning Giant (Oblivian abyss). Wasn't too pleased to discover that it took away one of my insurance coverages, because the Skell's motorcycle mode is a little hard to control. Nevertheless, the Skell is easily one of X's best gameplay aspects. They change the scope of taking on indigens the same size as a human or bigger and make you the dominating force of nature. I bought every single alternate frame I could afford, trying out one model and then swapping it out for another. Heavy frame might just be the best since they take longer to consume miranium.