TOTK Ganondorf and OOT Ganondorf cannot be the same

[GZ Zelda]

Well, that is my theory.

I thought your theory was that they were different Ganondorfs? Maybe I misunderstood.

 

[Moblinking5000]

That's what I was referring to, Bowsette. Quickly flipping through the Creating a Champion book, I don't see the text treating anyone as multiple entities. If I missed something on my flip through, I'm happy to be corrected, but everyone, including Link and Zelda, are treated as singular entities. So, I don't think it's a good basis to make evidence on.

Edit: There is page 20, but that has more to due with helping people connect the blue tunic to Link, instead of the customary green. The point still stands.

BotW Link and Zelda are referred to by name; OoT Link and Zelda are referred to as ''the hero''/''the princess'', though, IIRC.

 

[Ryuu Kage Desu]

I thought your theory was that they were different Ganondorfs? Maybe I misunderstood.

My theory states that the TotK Ganondorf is the original, and that the seal placed on him was disturbed in MC, allowing the later iterations to be born/created, which is why his forces seek to resurrect him, rather than wait for the reincarnation cycle.

 

[Lambsquirt]

My theory states that the TotK Ganondorf is the original, and that the seal placed on him was disturbed in MC, allowing the later iterations to be born/created, which is why his forces seek to resurrect him, rather than wait for the reincarnation cycle.

I Whole Heartedly have to agree with This P.O.V.
The Burping of the Zonai Tupperware commences after Skyward Sword, Hence the incarnation of "Demise" before we see
"Ganons" mortal incarnations.

 

[TheLegendofGoose]

(I clipped the post for the quote I needed)

And the CT makes no sense.

Sorry if I'm rather late to the conversation but, why hasn't anyone taken note of the giant hole punctured below the mummified Ganondorf's sternum at the beginning of TotK? Take note of the larger hole in the middle [rather than the smaller ones around said puncture], I've read an interesting theory that it could be the fatal blow delivered to Ganondorf in TP (perhaps from the Sage's sword or the Master Sword).
So my hypothesis is that the Ganondorf from TotK is the same Ganondorf from TP; however I'm not particularly sure how he could've been preserved from TP other than a certain sage *cough!* *cough!* Rauru *cough!* *cough!* subdueing the man himself so that he could not harm anyone else (as he did break through the shackles during his execution and kill a few Sages).

I'm rather new at this theorising stuff and may not have the best evidence to link (hehe funny) my idea

 

[GZ Zelda]

My theory states that the TotK Ganondorf is the original, and that the seal placed on him was disturbed in MC, allowing the later iterations to be born/created, which is why his forces seek to resurrect him, rather than wait for the reincarnation cycle.

Then Demise is just a completely separate thing?

Sorry if I'm rather late to the conversation but, why hasn't anyone taken note of the giant hole punctured below the mummified Ganondorf's sternum at the beginning of TotK? Take note of the larger hole in the middle [rather than the smaller ones around said puncture], I've read an interesting theory that it could be the fatal blow delivered to Ganondorf in TP (perhaps from the Sage's sword or the Master Sword).

So my hypothesis is that the Ganondorf from TotK is the same Ganondorf from TP; however I'm not particularly sure how he could've been preserved from TP other than a certain sage *cough!* *cough!* Rauru *cough!* *cough!* subdueing the man himself so that he could not harm anyone else (as he did break through the shackles during his execution and kill a few Sages).

I think this is unlikely but maybe it could work. So the canon timeline goes Twilight Princess and then Four Swords Adventure. FSA has a different Ganondorf than TP: what needs to happen is that Hyrule Kingdom needs to be "destroyed" enough to spark a refounding, and this refounding has to occur centuries after FSA after an unseen event destroys the kingdom.

Then there's the problem of how TP Ganondorf survived being stabbed through the chest. TotK Ganondorf does have bandages wrapped around his abdomen, but there's no sign of a gash. In Twilight Princess, a spirit of Ganondorf floats around the Twilight Realm, fueled by Zant's hatred. It is possible that Twilight Princess Ganondorf survived once again through this spirit form; no evidence for this, but possible. Then he somehow was revived in TotK's past (maybe by Koume and Kotake) which occurs after FSA. He also maybe was sealed after TP ends and then is unsealed later after FSA? Maybe by the Twilight Princess sages who remain?

So that's an SS--OoT--MM--TP--FSA--TotK past--BotW--TotK timeline.

If you watch the TotK cutscenes, however, it is clear that Rauru, by punching Ganondorf, created the gash in his chest, not TP Link's Master Sword. This placement also doesn't explain why the Triforce and Master Sword go unused in dealing with Ganon (which is normally a problem with the CT, but I digress).

So it's possible, I guess, but I'd say unlikely. I might have misunderstood the theory though.

 

[Lambsquirt]

(I clipped the post for the quote I needed)

Sorry if I'm rather late to the conversation but, why hasn't anyone taken note of the giant hole punctured below the mummified Ganondorf's sternum at the beginning of TotK? Take note of the larger hole in the middle [rather than the smaller ones around said puncture], I've read an interesting theory that it could be the fatal blow delivered to Ganondorf in TP (perhaps from the Sage's sword or the Master Sword).View attachment 73658
So my hypothesis is that the Ganondorf from TotK is the same Ganondorf from TP; however I'm not particularly sure how he could've been preserved from TP other than a certain sage *cough!* *cough!* Rauru *cough!* *cough!* subdueing the man himself so that he could not harm anyone else (as he did break through the shackles during his execution and kill a few Sages).

Nice theory work! this pic of sages sword suggests the shape of the wound is from a different blade/source, the wound i believe may resemble a "Trident" Wound perhaps? a Blow Struck by the Zora Champion pre-sealing? (totk past)

Well, that is my theory.

I also support this theory and a Pre-Skyward Sword Hyrule kingdom.
The Ancient Hero aspect in canon lore is placed before Skyward Sword.

"So that's an SS--OoT--MM--TP--FSA--TotK past--BotW--TotK timeline."

so when Koume and Kotake died in OOT and went to the other realm, they were reborn in T.O.T.K past?
*I think the timeline placement here needs amending xx.

TotK "past"--SS--OoT(Timeline split)--MM--TP--FSA--BotW--TotK Presant."(Timeline Re-merging)

Spoiler - Calling All Lore Nerds #4 Final Spoiler.

"The 2 Master Sword Paradox" (Canon) "A simple solution to the time paradox of the Master Swords." "Breath of the wild" & "Tears of the Kingdom", Are indeed intertwined within the same time line. #(Lets use the "Naturally Occurring Master Sword" as our "Datum Point") For the "Master Sword"...

zeldadungeon.net

 

[GZ Zelda]

so when Koume and Kotake died in OOT and went to the other realm, they were reborn in T.O.T.K past?

Yes, just like they were in the Oracle games.

 

[Ryuu Kage Desu]

why hasn't anyone taken note of the giant hole punctured below the mummified Ganondorf's sternum at the beginning of TotK? Take note of the larger hole in the middle [rather than the smaller ones around said puncture], I've read an interesting theory that it could be the fatal blow delivered to Ganondorf in TP (perhaps from the Sage's sword or the Master Sword).

So my hypothesis is that the Ganondorf from TotK is the same Ganondorf from TP; however I'm not particularly sure how he could've been preserved from TP other than a certain sage *cough!* *cough!* Rauru *cough!* *cough!* subdueing the man himself so that he could not harm anyone else (as he did break through the shackles during his execution and kill a few Sages).

I have to agree with the trident idea. It's more fitting for the type of wound. Ganondorf did have a battle where a trident was involved, right before he was sealed.

Then Demise is just a completely separate thing?

Demise has always been a separate entity from Ganondorf, linked primarily by the curse.

 

[Lambsquirt]

Then Demise is just a completely separate thing?


I think this is unlikely but maybe it could work. So the canon timeline goes Twilight Princess and then Four Swords Adventure. FSA has a different Ganondorf than TP: what needs to happen is that Hyrule Kingdom needs to be "destroyed" enough to spark a refounding, and this refounding has to occur centuries after FSA after an unseen event destroys the kingdom.

Then there's the problem of how TP Ganondorf survived being stabbed through the chest. TotK Ganondorf does have bandages wrapped around his abdomen, but there's no sign of a gash. In Twilight Princess, a spirit of Ganondorf floats around the Twilight Realm, fueled by Zant's hatred. It is possible that Twilight Princess Ganondorf survived once again through this spirit form; no evidence for this, but possible. Then he somehow was revived in TotK's past (maybe by Koume and Kotake) which occurs after FSA. He also maybe was sealed after TP ends and then is unsealed later after FSA? Maybe by the Twilight Princess sages who remain?

So that's an SS--OoT--MM--TP--FSA--TotK past--BotW--TotK timeline.

If you watch the TotK cutscenes, however, it is clear that Rauru, by punching Ganondorf, created the gash in his chest, not TP Link's Master Sword. This placement also doesn't explain why the Triforce and Master Sword go unused in dealing with Ganon (which is normally a problem with the CT, but I digress).

So it's possible, I guess, but I'd say unlikely. I might have misunderstood the theory though.

GZ I found the contradiction in your theorizing!!

Clearly T.O.T.K Past Ganon, "Is the first incarnation of Ganon in the whole series".
Why am I so confident you ask?
He literally is the "First Ganon" we see shove a rock on his head to copy the king he hates, "Raru the 1st King of Hyrule"

AFTER THIS POINT (T.O.T.K Past),

For the entire game series "Ganon" Has a Rock on his Fore-Head,
Proving t.o.t.k past is when he becomes the "Demon King "
the start of his Legacy.

Riddle me this, if T.O.T.K PAST is Post "Twillight Princess" Why is this Ganon After OOT only just being introduced to the Gem-Forhead placement?

Chronologically we would see a point were we are introduced to the very 1st Ganon, tthe Gem Forehead concept and the founder of the 1st kingdom of Hyrule.

This is "T.O.T.K Pasts Purpose".

Then Demise is just a completely separate thing?

Check out Demises "Asthetics"

Now Ganons Spirits "Asthetics" From Twillight Princess,



Fire, and "Dins Corrupted Flame"

 

[Guinea]

"The common opinion is that Hyrule was created by the Hylian people, the race closest to the gods, but... truth be told, there's also a theory saying that in ancient times, there was a race even closer to the gods than the Hylian people, and THEY created it. And they, simultaneously with the birth of the Hylian people, created a new capital, a capital that floated in the heavens." -Shad, Twilight Princess

Just wanna leave this quote here.

 

[Lambsquirt]

Yes, just like they were in the Oracle games.

So If the Hero was "Defeated" in this timeline did Koume and Kotake infact die?
In OOT we win defeating Koume and Kotake, and the outcome of the game is "Winning".
We do not see exactly what went down in game during the DT events of OOT.

The way I see it is, any time you die in OOT your "Game Over" results in a DT.

This perspective leaves "Koume" and "Kotake" alive and well in a DT. (OOA, OOS)

But this is what I'm saying, TotK past can't take place before Wind Waker because of the Rito. If the armor pieces in the Depths are canon, TotK has to be either a merged timeline or a linear timeline, and having two Rito tribes before Wind Waker doesn't make more sense then the developer quotes suggesting that TotK's past was a refounding after the destruction of the kingdom.

Fujibayashi, the game's director, translated by Nintendo Everything: “It is definitely a story after Breath of the Wild. After that, basically, we are thinking about how not to break the story and world of The Legend of Zelda. Those are the two points I can say at this point in time.

I think if it doesn’t collapse, fans can have the space to wonder various things like “So that means that is possible?”. If we only speak of the possibilities, if there is the story of Hyrule’s founding, it is also possible that Hyrule has collapsed in its history once before. I don’t randomly make things by saying “Isn’t it interesting if we did this here?”, so even for the parts we did not tell, I hope you enjoy imagining it."

Whats your Explanation of the "Watarara" in OOT Manga then, Well before the events of Wind Waker?
I believe as do others there are two races of rito,

Natural "highland Rito" a Migratory Species.
And "Coastal Rito" the Zora Catastrophe.

 

[GZ Zelda]

Demise has always been a separate entity from Ganondorf, linked primarily by the curse.

But he's the origin of Ganondorf. It is his hatred and malice against the Goddess Hylia and her hero Link that causes the recurrence, unless his curse just falls flat.

Check out Demises "Asthetics"

Now Ganons Spirits "Asthetics" From Twillight Princess,

Yes, Demise is the source of Ganondorf. It is his hatred that created him. There wasn't a Ganondorf before Demise.

He literally is the "First Ganon" we see shove a rock on his head to copy the king he hates, "Raru the 1st King of Hyrule"

AFTER THIS POINT (T.O.T.K Past),

For the entire game series "Ganon" Has a Rock on his Fore-Head,
Proving t.o.t.k past is when he becomes the "Demon King "
the start of his Legacy.

Ok, but that still wouldn't place TotK past before Demise.

Riddle me this, if T.O.T.K PAST is Post "Twillight Princess" Why is this Ganon After OOT only just being introduced to the Gem-Forhead placement?

I don't really buy into @TheLegendofGoose theory that TP Ganondorf is TotK Ganondorf. I think TotK Ganon being after OoT lost his gem when Link stabbed the Master Sword through his skull in WW.

So If the Hero was "Defeated" in this timeline did Koume and Kotake infact die?
In OOT we win defeating Koume and Kotake, and the outcome of the game is "Winning".
We do not see exactly what went down in game during the DT events of OOT.

The way I see it is, any time you die in OOT your "Game Over" results in a DT.

This perspective leaves "Koume" and "Kotake" alive and well in a DT. (OOA, OOS)

Even in the DT, Nabooru had to be freed as a sage so she could seal Ganondorf in the supposed final battle, and that can only happen if Link had defeated Koume and Kotake. The DT canonically happens when Ganondorf himself kills Link; we can change that if we don't want to resurrect Koume and Kotake, but we would be changing it and fanfiction-ing a way for Nabooru to escape Twinrova.

Whats your Explanation of the "Watarara" in OOT Manga then, Well before the events of Wind Waker?

I don't think the Watarara are canon because they were written in a manga by third party sources.

I can potentially concede that there are other Rito races in other timelines, but I cannot fathom two Rito races with the same cultural signifiers existing at the same time (-li suffix, seeing the fire dragon, same focus on songs and wind, Medoh's name, etc.)

I guess there could be bird-like Watarara (Highland Rito) and then actual Rito (Coastal Rito), but the Watarara and the Rito don't have overlapping cultural signifiers: Watarara are migratory, have a different naming pattern (Rouru much like OoT's Rauru and Guufo much like the Italian name for the Link's Awakening Owl), are not given their wings by the fire dragon, have no focus on songs of wind, and have no legimitacy in the eyes of the kingdom of Hyrule considering they aren't in the game.

 

[YoungGanon23]

TOTK Ganon is 100% a reincarnation or an ancestor but i want to think that he is a reincarnation of OOT Ganon

 

[Ryuu Kage Desu]

But he's the origin of Ganondorf. It is his hatred and malice against the Goddess Hylia and her hero Link that causes the recurrence, unless his curse just falls flat.

Keeping in mind that we don't know how the curse functions, at a technical level.

If FSA Ganondorf is any indication, the curse takes hold of existing people, rather than creating people.

Fi confirms the destruction of Demise's soul.

And, the fact that the curse was enacted in the distant past of Skyward Sword, via time travel.