The Paradox Theory.

[Austin]

I'm not going to deal with all Zelda games, but just 2 in general. When trying to fit in all the Zelda games into this theory, it would make things too complicated. With any problem, the best way to solve it is to do it in small steps, and use what you know!

In Legend of Zelda Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask. There are a few known's.
1. Link travels through time multiple times in both games.
2. Link disappears from traditional Hyrule in Majora's mask.

If you ever watch the movie Back to the Future it mentions the idea of paradoxes being introduced in time travel. These paradoxes created tangent time lines. In simple, there were different outcomes in the future based of changes in the past.

For those who haven't seen the movies. In the movie, Marty McFly and Dr. Brown have a time machine they're able to travel.

In the first movie, Marty goes back to the past. There he meddles with his parents' lives. His meddling lead to him almost disappearing because his mom was starting to fall in love with him, rather then his father. Marty was able to fix this and when he went back to his own time, his family life completely changed.

Without going into a whole detail about the movie, my final point is when you go back and meddle, you change the world. The same can be applied to Zelda. When Link goes back in time, he alters Hyrule. The main reason for this is to stop Ganon, but things change.

This image is to help explain my theory.

Time Line A
This time line is Hyrule with Link getting the stones, and being sealed in the chamber for 7 years. Then Link doesn't fight Ganon, and Hyrule goes on living bad life. This is also the time line where he doesn't alter Nabooru's life.

Then the arrowed line is Link going back in time. For this theory, I assume he goes back in time only once. He has to do this to get the gauntlets.

Time Line B
This is the final time line in Ocarina of Time. Link alters Nabooru's life and defeats Ganon. Hyrule lives in peace from there, but Link doesn't! No, he has to go back in time again. So much for Link getting all the ladies for being a hero!

Time Line C
This is where Link lives in Termina saving their hide too. We all know that story. I want to make a special not to the red dot. In Termina, Link has to go back in time multiple times due to the 3 day. I didn't care to make more time lines, because it would make the image more confusing.

We can be at ease, because for every tangent time line Link creates, they all end by the moon crashing and creating chaos, except 1. That is the final time line where Link saves Termina and is able to live the day. Since he didn't go back in time again, or as we know. I left this as the final time line.

Conclusion
My final point is, Link creates multiple time lines in these two games. Each continue on with their own life. Since we only know the story of Link, we aren't totally informed about the other time lines.

Essentially, we have at least three tangential time lines which future Zelda games can be made based from. I can't really say which time line Twilight Princess or Wind Waker come from, but I can say that they can both exist on their own time line. This would keep the story in Wind Waker true about the two encounters of Ganon. In the 2nd encounter of Ganon, there was no Hero and Hyrule Flood.

Any comments or questions?

 

[jlemon9721]

Nice work here! The whole time travel can get pretty confusing.

 

[Locke]

lol @ basing a theory off a movie.

If what you say is true, then nothing that Link does as an adult matters. If he travels to the future in Timeline 1 (I'm numbering them so no one confuses them with your lettered ones) and does stuff, then goes back in time and alters the past, creating a new branch (Timeline 2), then when he travels to the future again, it would be 7 years into Timeline 2 and anything he did in Timeline 1 after the split would stay in Timeline 1. The same thing would happen when he creates Timeline 3 and strands the events of Timeline 2, etc. (this only applies to pulling/replacing the MS in OoT btw)

I have an alternative theory if you don't mind me somewhat hijacking your thread. I'll just let you respond to this post first.

 

[Austin]

lol @ basing a theory off a movie.

If what you say is true, then nothing that Link does as an adult matters. If he travels to the future in Timeline 1 (I'm numbering them so no one confuses them with your lettered ones) and does stuff, then goes back in time and alters the past, creating a new branch (Timeline 2), then when he travels to the future again, it would be 7 years into Timeline 2 and anything he did in Timeline 1 after the split would stay in Timeline 1. The same thing would happen when he creates Timeline 3 and strands the events of Timeline 2, etc. (this only applies to pulling/replacing the MS in OoT btw)

I have an alternative theory if you don't mind me somewhat hijacking your thread. I'll just let you respond to this post first.

I apologize for not mentioning something. I'm not basing my theory of a movie, I'm using the movie as an example to help illustrate. The theory is based of the the Chaos Theory. In simple, it states given an initial state, that initial state will have its own unique outcome. Given a initial state different, then the outcome is different.

Here is an image illustrating that.

To apply this to Link, we could say that Initial State is equal to Child Link. Anything child Link does, will change Hyrule for adult Link. It's funny you mention that if anything Adult Link does, it doesn't matter. However, it does. The problem is, we don't get to see the changes of Adult Link. We can only see changes of child Link. We could even think of adult Link being a new initial state and anything past that would be a new outcome state.

Another movie that sort of illustrates this point (I'm sorry with the movie examples) is The Butterfly Effect. This movie stars Ashton Kutcher, and is sort of more recent/newer then Back to the Future. In this movie Ashton has an ability to alter specific events in his past. Each time he alters them, his current situation is different. Link the title, this movie is based off the Butterfly Effect(A big component of the Chaos Theory.).

Technically, Link doesn't go into the future, he simple is sealed away for 7 years. Similar to being frozen/asleep for 7 years, and then waking up. Link does go into the past because there isn't really other way to explain that without mentioning time travel. It's tricky to say what really happens through out the different time lines, because we're only able to view it through Links perspective. You made a good point, thanks!

 

[ChargewithSword]

This is a good thread and you try hard. Now I will contribute my two cents.

Timeline C comments: This one is the theory that irked me the most. Now there is a difference between Majora's Mask's time travel and Ocarinas. You see, in Majora you reset time itself rather than traversing to a different timeline. It is simply the process of restarting a clock however this time *pun not intended* Link is reseting time. He has basically sent Termina and everything around it into a a time loop until he can save the day.

In Ocarina, whenever Link travels back, everything he had done is still in effect. He still emptied the Kakarico well, etc. He is effectivily traveling to two dimensions in this sense.

Timeline A comments: This is nearly impossible when you think. Link was meant to awaken and stop Ganon. If he did not save anything then that means Link did not exist in this timeline.

I'm not complaining about B.

 

[Austin]

This is a good thread and you try hard. Now I will contribute my two cents.

Timeline C comments: This one is the theory that irked me the most. Now there is a difference between Majora's Mask's time travel and Ocarinas. You see, in Majora you reset time itself rather than traversing to a different timeline. It is simply the process of restarting a clock however this time *pun not intended* Link is reseting time. He has basically sent Termina and everything around it into a a time loop until he can save the day.

In Ocarina, whenever Link travels back, everything he had done is still in effect. He still emptied the Kakarico well, etc. He is effectivily traveling to two dimensions in this sense.

Timeline A comments: This is nearly impossible when you think. Link was meant to awaken and stop Ganon. If he did not save anything then that means Link did not exist in this timeline.

I'm not complaining about B.

You've made a good point about Majoras mask. Anything you do change it gets reset back. I can claim that the Special Point is the period of time where everything is the same. People preparing for for the festival, skull kid wonders around doing his bidding, etc. When you reset the time, you simple move Link and his Fairy, back to this this Special Point.

I'm going to try and solve some of the confusion. I've stated several times that we only see what Link sees. In this theory there is a basic assumption that time goes on. If Link goes back in time, and leaves a certain time line, that time line still continues. Link changes the time line he is currently on. You can think of it as every time Link time travels, he creates AND puts himself on a new time line. This process continues till he stops time traveling and ends up on Time Line C.

In time line A, Link doesn't have the gauntlets and he needs the gauntlets to save the last Sage. Since Link doesn't get the gauntlets till he goes back in time (hops from time line A to time line there would be no stopping Ganon in time line A, but there is defiantly a stop to Ganon in time line B.

I do apologize if this is sort of confusing. I'm willing to answer any questions/comments you guys have. Thanks for taking the time to actually read it.

 

[Locke]

I still don't think you provided a good enough solution to the problem I pointed out. Using your gauntlet example, Link 'sleeps' for 7 years the first time he pulls the sword. He saves 5 sages as an adult. He then travels back in time and meddles a bit in order to get the Gaunlets. This meddling, as you say, would create a new timeline. When he 'sleeps' for 7 years again on this new timeline, how are the 5 sages still awakened when he 'wakes up'? He only did that on Timeline A, not Timeline B.


I guess I'll take this opportunity to post my theory and see what you think of it:

The Master Sword is said to create a "path between times," or a means of travel between two points in time (7 years apart, on the same timeline). When he pulls the Sword for the first time, he skips 7 years, allowing Ganondorf to take over, etc., and does some stuff as an adult. He then replaces the MS in the PoT and goes back to where (when) he came from (to the point when he pulled the MS) so that he can alter events in the same timeline. It does not create a new timeline, just distorts the current one. This way, he can go back to the future of this same timeline (to the point when he had replaced the MS) and everything he did both as a child and as an adult would be reflected in the current state of Hyrule.

One thing to note is that he never goes back to the same point in time and never goes forward to the same point in time. For example, he could pull the sword on March 9th, 2010, and go forward to March 9th, 2017, spend 5 days in the future and replace the sword on March 14th, 2017. He would return to March 9th, 2010 and perhaps spend 10 more days as a child before pulling the MS again and travelling from March 19th, 2010 to March 14th, 2017 (the same point when he replaced it during his last visit to the future.) After a few more days, he would replace it again and return to March 19th, 2010.

Therefore, from a timeline perspective, Link only travels in time once. All the events during his childhood occur (March 9th - March 19th, 2010), then the events in the future would follow (March 9th-March 14th, 2017), even though Link experiences them out of order.

However, after he defeats Ganondorf, Zelda uses the Ocarina of Time to send him back to his past one last time. The OoT works slightly different than the MS/PoT in that it doesn't create a path between two points in the same timeline but creates, as you said, a new branch in the timeline. That's how the AT and the CT can both exist, both experiencing different events. The events on one timeline have no effect on the other.

(I haven't formed an opinon on time travel in MM yet.)

 

[Pinecove]

From the guy who studied metaphysics:

Time is not linear. This is the first thing anyone needs to know.
In OoT we travel from time to time changing events. In some cases, events have already happened meaning that you are not actually the first Link to do these events.
When we close the door of time, the time between times is closed meaning changing time will branch off into a new timeline.

And that's exactly what happens.

Time changeable on the same line in OoT before the DoT closes.

 

[ChargewithSword]

You've made a good point about Majoras mask. Anything you do change it gets reset back. I can claim that the Special Point is the period of time where everything is the same. People preparing for for the festival, skull kid wonders around doing his bidding, etc. When you reset the time, you simple move Link and his Fairy, back to this this Special Point.

I'm going to try and solve some of the confusion. I've stated several times that we only see what Link sees. In this theory there is a basic assumption that time goes on. If Link goes back in time, and leaves a certain time line, that time line still continues. Link changes the time line he is currently on. You can think of it as every time Link time travels, he creates AND puts himself on a new time line. This process continues till he stops time traveling and ends up on Time Line C.

In time line A, Link doesn't have the gauntlets and he needs the gauntlets to save the last Sage. Since Link doesn't get the gauntlets till he goes back in time (hops from time line A to time line there would be no stopping Ganon in time line A, but there is defiantly a stop to Ganon in time line B.

I do apologize if this is sort of confusing. I'm willing to answer any questions/comments you guys have. Thanks for taking the time to actually read it.

The Majora's Mask one is slightly making sense.

As for the Gauntlet thing, where is Link when he doesn't travel back in time? Where is the evidence that states that everytime he goes back and forth he makes a new timeline. It could simply be him putting himself back on the timeline he was in before. How can he make a new timeline altogether?

 

[Austin]

I still don't think you provided a good enough solution to the problem I pointed out. Using your gauntlet example, Link 'sleeps' for 7 years the first time he pulls the sword. He saves 5 sages as an adult. He then travels back in time and meddles a bit in order to get the Gaunlets. This meddling, as you say, would create a new timeline. When he 'sleeps' for 7 years again on this new timeline, how are the 5 sages still awakened when he 'wakes up'? He only did that on Timeline A, not Timeline B.


I guess I'll take this opportunity to post my theory and see what you think of it:

The Master Sword is said to create a "path between times," or a means of travel between two points in time (7 years apart, on the same timeline). When he pulls the Sword for the first time, he skips 7 years, allowing Ganondorf to take over, etc., and does some stuff as an adult. He then replaces the MS in the PoT and goes back to where (when) he came from (to the point when he pulled the MS) so that he can alter events in the same timeline. It does not create a new timeline, just distorts the current one. This way, he can go back to the future of this same timeline (to the point when he had replaced the MS) and everything he did both as a child and as an adult would be reflected in the current state of Hyrule.

One thing to note is that he never goes back to the same point in time and never goes forward to the same point in time. For example, he could pull the sword on March 9th, 2010, and go forward to March 9th, 2017, spend 5 days in the future and replace the sword on March 14th, 2017. He would return to March 9th, 2010 and perhaps spend 10 more days as a child before pulling the MS again and travelling from March 19th, 2010 to March 14th, 2017 (the same point when he replaced it during his last visit to the future.) After a few more days, he would replace it again and return to March 19th, 2010.

Therefore, from a timeline perspective, Link only travels in time once. All the events during his childhood occur (March 9th - March 19th, 2010), then the events in the future would follow (March 9th-March 14th, 2017), even though Link experiences them out of order.

However, after he defeats Ganondorf, Zelda uses the Ocarina of Time to send him back to his past one last time. The OoT works slightly different than the MS/PoT in that it doesn't create a path between two points in the same timeline but creates, as you said, a new branch in the timeline. That's how the AT and the CT can both exist, both experiencing different events. The events on one timeline have no effect on the other.

(I haven't formed an opinon on time travel in MM yet.)

I like how you think. It made me think more. One idea I came up with was copy time line states. When Link travels and creates a new time line, the states of the previous time line follow through. With the copied over states, Link would then alter the new time line and it would change and become different. When Link travels from time line A to time line B, he copies the states of the 5 rescued sages.

Another idea, is that the chamber of sages isn't effect by all this. For example, it exists as its own dimension. Hyrule's time and Chamber's time are different and the two don't effect each other. When Link time travels, he hides himself inside the Chamber, and let's Hyrule do its thing.

A comment on yours. I would claim that the initial date/time Link puts the sword down has to be the same. When adult Link puts the sword in the pedestal he has to travel a tid-bit later then he initially pulls the sword because if he goes back a little earlier, there would be two Links, because the original Link would still be in Hyrule (assuming we don't say all time lines are just one, and then Link would be in Termina).

The same can be said for Link going to adult Link. It would have to be some date/time that wouldn't allow the two adult Links to co-exist in the same Hyurle, or does it. There is no evidence that says two adult Links can't co-exist, but that would make things even more confusing trying to take that into consideration.

 

[Pinecove]

The same can be said for Link going to adult Link. It would have to be some date/time that wouldn't allow the two adult Links to co-exist in the same Hyurle, or does it. There is no evidence that says two adult Links can't co-exist, but that would make things even more confusing trying to take that into consideration.

You're assuming that point A goes to point B to point C to pint A again when in reality the second point A would be point D.

Link doesn't always arrive back in the future at the same time.

 

[ZestanorLink]

This is an interesting topic, and I'm gonna try to explain this the way I interpret it as being.

Okay, so let's say some guy is filming Link, and we'll call him Lakitu, but the Lakitu doesn't travel in time with him. It'd be something like this:

1.Link collects the Spiritual Stones
2.Link goes into the ToT, grips the MS, but does not pull it, he let's go (this would have been the first 7 yr jump.)
3.Link heads to the desert, and meets Nabooru.
4.Link goes back to the ToT and pulls the MS.
~7 years~
5. Link reappears and rescues 4 new Sages.
6.Link goes back into the ToT, but doesn't putthe MS in the PoT (would have been to go back for the guantlets.)
7.Link rescues Nabooru and defeats Ganondorf and is sent back.
8.Life goes on without Link, as this was the original timeline.

THEN the MM timeline (CT) is created, which is parallel, AND shares the same history up until point 2.

If Lakitu (Lol) did the same with MM timeline it would be this, starting at a parallel point 3.

3.Link exits the ToT without Navi and enters Termina.
4.Link does whatever he did in the last 3 day cycle.
5.Link lives on in the CT.

As you can see, to the human eye it would appear that MM happened in only 3 days.

That's how I see it.

 

[Gooey Fame]

I always thought of it as working like a saved game. For instance Link would place the Master Sword into the Pedestal and it would send him to exactly where he was on the other strand of time. Sort of like picking up a save file where you last left off. The same thing would happen when he pulls the sword back out. His current state is saved and he is returned to where he was on his adult strand of time. Then when he is sent back at the end. It is to a different state before where he would have been returned by replacing the MS.

One thing to note is that he never goes back to the same point in time and never goes forward to the same point in time. For example, he could pull the sword on March 9th, 2010, and go forward to March 9th, 2017, spend 5 days in the future and replace the sword on March 14th, 2017. He would return to March 9th, 2010 and perhaps spend 10 more days as a child before pulling the MS again and travelling from March 19th, 2010 to March 14th, 2017 (the same point when he replaced it during his last visit to the future.) After a few more days, he would replace it again and return to March 19th, 2010.

Therefore, from a timeline perspective, Link only travels in time once. All the events during his childhood occur (March 9th - March 19th, 2010), then the events in the future would follow (March 9th-March 14th, 2017), even though Link experiences them out of order.

I agree with this.
I made a pretty crude image explaining this. It isn't the best but.. I think it does its job.

Basically when Link goes backward and forward in time he ends up exactly where he left off in that point. Someone viewing it from a normal persons perspective would just see Link pull the Master Sword and then return it.

 

[Brandikins]

In Ocarina of Time, Link goes back in time, but after Zelda fled. After she sends him back one last time, she sends him back before they opened the doors to the realm, thus Link was able to warn Zelda in the past of what was about to happen and how the Master Sword would seal him away. Zelda then know that the plan wouldn't work, and would prepare for Ganondorf before he raided Hyrule Castle.

 

[Caleb, Of Asui]

I agree that Link's time travel works similarly to a saved game. That seems to be how it's portrayed in Ocarina of Time. At the end of the game, when Zelda sends Link back, however, it seems to work a little bit differently. The implication seems to be that he can't go back to the future (no pun intended, honestly) at that point, so the timeline which Link interprets as the future keeps going, while he continues within the timeline that he interprets as the past. It has been the past throughout the game that he kept coming back to, so no timelines are created other than the Adult Timeline which he experienced as the future, and the Child Timeline which he experienced as the past, and will continue to experience even once seven years have passed and he finds himself in a new "future" (though perhaps he doesn't experience it, having left to Termina).