?
I think that was a little lazy reply Matt. I think he wants to convey that the choice of who is a role model should be a community thing. If the community likes somebody very much; congratulations. Instead of having a specific group of people that got handpicked long ago, and just chose who would join them in total secrecy. I too agree with him that role models shouldn't pick other role models, they once were regular members too so why not let everyone be part of the decision, a community decision.
I'll reiterate that that is still taking it too seriously. It's not about "these are the people who are your role models and no one else is." That's not what it's about at all. It's recognition for what has been done and encouragement to continue being a role model and helping others. A public vote on this, would just inflate the very problem that started the initial knight hatred in the first place: very bad people who were merely popular getting the rank, and falling in love with the power they think they have, but actually don't. The very things you're complaining about are not true now, but would be extremely problematic if voting was handled by the community. This isn't a public office. They're not power positions meant to order people around. You're placing far more importance on them than actually exists.
The PM capacity thing and access to hidden sub-forum is probably the two I can think of. The PM thing has been given to everyone I think, although the hidden sub-forum is still unnecessary IMO since like I said earlier, it shouldn't be a secret process, it should be public so people can at least know why someone gets picked/not picked. If one is afraid to show others why he mad a particular choice, it could easily be misinterpreted as shady business.
Going off what I just said, you're seeing more status there than actually exists. Insisting that it's there will only make it more tempting for the people who want it. You take this away from them, you are not going to stop those people, they'll still seek status some other way.
This goes hand in hand what I said above. I do think so. If somebody gets turned down for HK, they deserve to know why. Everyone should be able to at least see the process so they know who is going to become HK and who needs to improve in order to be considered a role model. It is honestly not a horrible thing if you get turned down, you aren't failing as a member, just to be a role model.
I don't know if you noticed, but this forum has a huge cancerous tumor in it. People CANNOT HANDLE being told things they don't want to hear. They don't like hearing anything that disagrees with their beliefs or opinions. What do you think will happen when they see the opinions of why people think they just aren't good enough. "Oh, I guess I have to improve then." or, more likely: "This is outragous! I'm horribly offended by this, none of that is true! I'm much better than that!" And... who's to say? maybe they're right, maybe in some cases they're not. You could see both when such a public spectacle would almost certainly operate on a popularity basis. That's how the HK voting used to run, effectively by popularity only. It took years of work and strict regulations on how the voting works in order to kill the popularity aspect of voting.
I do agree with this to a certain extent. Although I don't think this view is enough of an excuse to stop making improvements when it comes to these things. I'd rather have people make posts out of "greed" to become a role model, than to become a typical ZD HK that hardly does anything and is only known by anyone because of their rank (which yes, I don't consider a role model). So what I basically mean is that yes, there will always be ulterior motives, but some are better than others.
It is when a big part of people's argument is that people view it as a status symbol. I hate status symbols, and honestly the only people that I see that think it is one, are the people trying to kill it.
I don't think that would've happened in the first place had the HK's not been so secretive about their voting. It could be seen as a minor point, but keeping a reason for somebody getting a promotion (shouldn't even use that word since HK's should be equal to members but YOLO) hidden just sparks rumors and grudges.
I want to see you try giving people the reasons why they were rejected from... anything really. See how well that works. In an ideal world maybe. Often times criticisms against a person are completely unfounded and not even remotely true. Sometimes... they're absolutely on the point. In either case, the person will not be too happy about it. People have the right to voice their opinions. But it was decided, before my time, that it's for the best that people probably should not see the criticisms against them.
I don't see why you say that since he has a clear point. The HK's are supposed to be role models that encourage & inspire new members to make good posts. Although this thought itself is a little outdated and he is correct that a new member shouldn't really be treated like a little kid with the HK being the adult.
I'm not sure where these ideas have been coming from. You're picking out falsehoods and using them as criticisms. No current HKs do that at all.
It is similar to the last one. He basically means that role models aren't really needed. Members don't need to look up to a role model to know how to not break rules.
AS I said before, telling people how not to break the rules has absolutely nothing to do with the HKs. That's the moderator's job. Any HKs that do it are either moderators or are doing it of their own prerogative and NOT because it's the job of an HK. The job is to be a role model. You might have noticed that I have very, VERY strong criticisms of the forum's existing rules. So... again, this is completely irrelevant and you can't just using completely untrue things to implicate the HKs. This isn't a political campaign ad. Stick to the truth please.
I think the problem with this and the HK system is that there are way more members that are equal/more experiences posters than the HK's themselves. It is a very slow process and even if it were fast, every 3rd or 4th member would be purple. That is just silly and I think a simple little badge, no color or banner, would be sufficient for recognition.
We've explained a few times now why the process was on hold. And I explained here and in the rank color thread how removing colors, and I suppose by extension banners too, will only make only make the remaining ones more desirable and incure even more status and that seems completely counter to the stated intentions of the people who wish to kill the knights.
I could agree on some categories on the GKA's but imo this years nominees were mostly fair. It is still a big opinion contest. If you want an objective contest as possible then there need to be very specific rules & guidelines set out at the start that everyone needs to read for example what it means to be a good poster/thread starter/signature maker etc. Why not take a piece out of the Book of the HK for the first two since they are the main reasons people seem to have been promoted, for posts & threads ?
It's a glorified popularity contest. Candidates win on popularity, not merit. If they happen to really qualify, they got there because of how many people know them, not their actual qualifiations. I have completely distain for the whole process but I'm not going to argue that it should be ended because I don't see the point in trying to kill something I don't have to take part in. And I'm still confused as to why people here are so insistant on doing that here when nothing is forcing them to have any part of it. I don't see it as a reasonable stance. And I would say that even if I 100% agreed that it was a pointless thing. So what? Who cares if people don't like something. That gives you absolutely no right to go in and demand that people either change or stop something you don't like that you do not have to participate in. It just comes across to me as horribly selfish, intrusive and arrogantly self-righteous.
Now for the rest after the above, I don't really know why you replied to those since he stated that they are not relevant to his opinion of the rank?
I think it is obvious towards the end of the second half that I was not taking the second half seriously.
1. Read up on what a HK is & is supposed to be.
Except people are not doing that. They're just latching on to the most negative things about it, regardless of whether or not they have any truth whatsoever, and then criticizing it for that. You can't avoid coming across as ignorant and condescending when your arguments consist of things that actually are true mixed in with complete falsehoods, both used equally as criticisms. It makes for a very weak argument. And it's odd to see that happen, and then people act as if they've been victorious for using those tactics.
I don't really think you do understand where most of the opposition is coming from. It is simply an unnecessary rank and no matter if the system works 100% as intended it will still meet opposition since the fundamental idea isn't good. It is a little lazy to say that the rank should stay just because it's not that big of a deal and shouldn't be taken seriously, but yet all the HK's take it seriously enough and really bust their butts to try and make it work as intended. Maybe I'm the only one that finds this weird?
Everyone in this opposition, even if they have good, well intentioned reasons, are using false rumors, and outright fabrications, to put weight on their arguments. Probably not even aware the things they've heard are not remotely true.
We are not taking anything from anybody here, there is honestly nothing to take but a purple color and access to a hidden section of the forums. And again, just because an annoyance is seen as unnecessary/no big deal then that isn't a good enough reason not to make room for something better.
I fail to see how being so dedicated to killing the system that this opposition would complain to Mases enough about it that he'd have this knee-jerk reaction to quiet them up, and then criticize it with false information, continually insistant that they want it gone, does not consitute "taking away something." It very clearly is. You don't like the knights? DON'T INTERACT WITH THEM. No one is force-feeding the system down your throat. Like I said above, I find it to be very immoral position to want to tell someone to stop doing something that doesn't affect you, that you don't have to be involved with, simply because YOU DO NOT LIKE IT. That is the same kind of reasoning the homophobes use to oppose gay marriage. It offends their sensibilities. So what? Who cares. It doesn't have to have anything to do with you if you don't want it to.
It is a different thing Matt when talking about MD issues, RL stuff and opinions. This here is a role model system on a gaming forum we are talking about, why turn your back around and avoid it when you could make a change for the better. I can understand doing that when somebody goes on and on about the earth being flat, or tries to convert you to Satanism... but why turn your back about an annoyance of something you yourself are part of? like a role model system on a gaming forum I am part of?
I don't see it as any different. People don't like something. They do not have to participate, they want it gone anyway. Despite having the EXACT OPPOSITE opinion on the exact same kind of thing on another matter.
Matt, this is the first time in a while the community has been able to have a say on this matter. If people are going to be chosen as role models for the community, then isn't it only fair to allow everyone to voice their opinions on how the process is going and what they would like to see in the future? Of course non-HKs don't know about the dealings inside of the HK subforum as they don't have access to it, but they understand what the rank stands for. While there are some people who are dissatisfied with the rank for its slow and cumbersome voting system, others are opposed to it by principle, which is something you haven't acknowledged.
And yet everyone opposing this is hinging their arguments on incorrect information. Information I've heard before from a certain person.
Regarding the poll, there needs to be some way to quantify peoples' opinions on the matter. This thread has promoted a ton of discussion; while it's a shame some people have simply voted on the poll without contributing any written thoughts, it's understandable that they may not want to be involved in the debates that stem from such a topic. Similar polls were created for the old reputation system, for example, so the future of the HKs is worthy of a community discussion as well.
A ton of heated, angry discussion, full of insults both ways by a small number of people, which on the face of it looked like it resulted in two bans (regardless of what really happened, that's what it looks like in context here) and people making things up. Combined with a public poll, it guarentees on the fence will keep their distance and you won't accomplish what was intended. They'd be too terrified of making a statement.
I find it quite simplistic when people do this and sweep away the entire contents of an opposing viewpoint under the carpet under the excuse that it's "misinformed". If you believe a viewpoint to be misinformed then please explain why. Don't simply use that as your sole point of argument against it and hide such tactic under a large post.
That being said, I am in agreement that matters like this should generally be decided on by discussion rather than numbers alone. I was under the impression that such discussion was going on in these replies though, and not least in the sense of scaremongering people into staying quiet about what they think. I'm also doubtful that, if the numbers were currently swaying the other way, you'd still be displaying such a level of concern over the idea of a poll. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt though and say that I do think the timing, approach and execution of this thread has been sloppy. The existence of the HK's certainly needed to be discussed but this felt like it was just slapped in here for the sake of reassuring people that they were being listened to. Whilst the voting is currently heading in favour of my viewpoint, I would still rather we started this again and did things properly.
I apologise for not bringing anything more to the core debate of the topic, but I've already outlined my viewpoints and just wanted to address what I thought was a dirty tactic on Matt's part. Not trying to take a dig at you Matt, I just don't believe you approached the quoted point in the best frame of mind.
Um... no? I had JUST explained exactly why everything was untrue previously. I was not going to go about restating it, these posts are already way too long. So it was absolutely not the case that I just said "you're misinformed" and left it at that. I'll go ahead and say I'm displeased at this dirty tactic of... well... blatantly lying about just happened to try to invalidate what I said. I did not just use "misinformed. I stated that I explained what was really going on, which I did.
Absolutely yes it shouldn't go by pure numbers. Especially with the fear factor in this poll. It really, really should have been private. There's a reason why voting for public government officies, laws, etc. is private. And it's this. The fear factor of what people will think of you if you don't share their opinion and they show themselves to be very intolerant of different opinions on the subjects.
Still, JC's point hits it on the nail for me. Most of you guys are much more knowledgeable about the matter at hand than I am, so I really didn't think I should really branch out and offer input over the past few days. :yes: I cannot lie, however, I get somewhat nervous in these kinds of discussions. 
That's not to say my reasoning is very strong, but the vibe still remains!
) The title of Hylian Knight seems to pervade a prestige, but a goodness as well. This goodness is one of helping others, contributing to the forum, and serving as a positive reinforcement for all around these parts! This also begs the question: is an honor rank such as the Hylian Knight even necessary to promote good behavior and tidings? No matter the fate of the Hylian Knight usergroup, this forum can flourish. :silent:
