The Evolution of the Timeline Debate

[sign of table]

^I'd say that the release of TWW would retcon any of the intent behind OoT-LttP-LoZ, atleast to the extent of its 1998 confirmation (if that confirmation turns out to be true (which it looks like it is)) no longer being evidence.

 

[zeldahis101]

the only thing i don't like is that oot HAS to begin at the beginning...If anything i think it should start with a simple conclusion....WHY IS GANON THE PRINCE! OF DARKNESS?
it

I have one question...WHY OOT FIRST?...the simple question of why does Ganon have to be the PRINCE? who would be the king? It gives lots of questions... where did the guredo start? if in every 100 years there is one king, then why is there thousands to hundreds of years of diffrences between ganons, vatti, or whatever.

the one question if WHY OOT FIRST? one question is still lingering with me when i think of ganon, why PRINCE? this leads to many questions...who is the king? where did the guredo start? ect.
If the gurdo (yes i know i spelled it wrong) have one boy every 100 years, what is taken place through the thousands of years between games... this leads to my conclusion, Vatti came first... i know it doesn't make sence but here me out..
1/ still trying to get the triforce
2/in i believe it was minish cap vatti says he's the king of darkness... which might lead to the four swords bing first, if not over thousnads of years
3/ more questions.....

so... i think MC comes first, because...one explains the hat, the minish people being the kikori, and the four swords. and if you actually take logical evolution, the orginal kikori would be much smaller and grew in size. this explains the minish.

so in my perspective: MC-OOT-MM-LA-WW-PH-ST-lLOZ-AOL-TP-LTTP-OOA/S
i put ooa/s at the end because it has no use...i put la after mm because if you follow ww back-plot it talks of link going away and the world flooding...so link goes to temina, comes back to find mainly water...even geologically...terminas' ocean is to the west, and in LA link is heading westward...i know that link goes off on epona at the end but their's obviously missing peices

so then the wind waker seires takes off, and now at the end of st, their is still missing peices, but geologically, again the water in in the south east, such as in the big map between LOZ and AOL.

TP, ALTTP, and OOA/S are left for questioning

 

[Smertios]

^I'd say that the release of TWW would retcon any of the intent behind OoT-LttP-LoZ, atleast to the extent of its 1998 confirmation (if that confirmation turns out to be true (which it looks like it is)) no longer being evidence.

I disagree. There is absolutely no indication that the development of TWW changed the order of the games from OoT-LttP/LA-LoZ/AoL to OoT-LoZ/AoL-LttP/LA.

The timeline easily worked like this:

....../-TWW-LttP/LA-OoX-LoZ/AoL
OoT
......\MM

in 2002.

Show me any indication that the intent for the ordering of LttP and LoZ changed in 2002 and I might reconsider, but sincerely, I can't see how you could conclude that...

 

[Pinecove]

Possibly due to the unification of the Triforce. But I digress. The Triforce state is unknown after both TWW and TP, and chances are that we're not going to hear from it for quite a while.

 

[Smertios]

the one question if WHY OOT FIRST? one question is still lingering with me when i think of ganon, why PRINCE? this leads to many questions...who is the king? where did the guredo start? ect.

What? Ganondorf was teh king of the Gerudo, not the prince of anything...

If the gurdo (yes i know i spelled it wrong) have one boy every 100 years, what is taken place through the thousands of years between games... this leads to my conclusion, Vatti came first...

That is not a logical argument for such conclusion though...

i know it doesn't make sence but here me out..

Good thing you know... lol

Just kidding, ok? It is possible that Vaati might have come before Ganon, but we can't conclude that like that.

1/ still trying to get the triforce

What do you mean??

2/in i believe it was minish cap vatti says he's the king of darkness...

Not really. Ganon - not Vaati - is referred to as Demon King of Darkness in FSA, not in TMC...

which might lead to the four swords bing first, if not over thousnads of years

but... just... why?

so... i think MC comes first, because...one explains the hat,

What is there to explain about the hat? TMC Link had no hat because of Ezlo. In the end of the game he got a new hat. In OoT, Link has a hat because of the kokiri...

the minish people being the kikori,

Sorry to say but there is simply nothing hinting that. Not even remotely...

and the four swords.

What about it?

and if you actually take logical evolution, the orginal kikori would be much smaller and grew in size. this explains the minish./quote]

so in my perspective: MC-OOT-MM-LA-WW-PH-ST-lLOZ-AOL-TP-LTTP-OOA/S

That's a linear timeline. The split has been confirmed....

Also:

i put ooa/s at the end because it has no use...

You'll have to explain that one better, I don't think I quite got it...

i put la after mm because if you follow ww back-plot it talks of link going away and the world flooding...so link goes to temina, comes back to find mainly water...even geologically...terminas' ocean is to the west, and in LA link is heading westward...i know that link goes off on epona at the end but their's obviously missing peices

Oh, you are getting it wrong. The TWW backstory is talking about OoT, when Link is sent back to the past etc.

Also, LA has been confirmed multiple times to come after LttP. After Ganon has been killed in LttP, Link went away for training abroad. When he was returning to Hyrule (6 years later, according to AST), LA happened...

so then the wind waker seires takes off, and now at the end of st, their is still missing peices, but geologically, again the water in in the south east, such as in the big map between LOZ and AOL.

LoZ/AoL has also been confirmed to come after LttP in the timeline...

TP, ALTTP, and OOA/S are left for questioning

Not really, TP has been confirmed to come in the CT. LttP can come in either the CT or the AT, I'll agree.

As for OoX, we are currently analyzing a source that might indicate that the order is like this: LttP/OoX/LA-LoZ/AoL...

Possibly due to the unification of the Triforce. But I digress. The Triforce state is unknown after both TWW and TP, and chances are that we're not going to here from it for quite a while.

Yea, pretty much, TWW-LttP works just as well as TWW-LoZ. Just we know that LttP was developed as a prequel to LoZ, so...

 

[sign of table]

I disagree. There is absolutely no indication that the development of TWW changed the order of the games from OoT-LttP/LA-LoZ/AoL to OoT-LoZ/AoL-LttP/LA.

It didn't necessarily add evidence to OoT-LoZ-LttP, more like it took evidence away from OoT-LttP-LoZ.

TWW absolutely destroyed the connections between OoT and LttP (while OoT=SW was still possible, everything that the confirmations were based upon were completely destroyed). The things that an OoT-LttP-LoZ confirmation was based upon were destroyed. While still possible, the original reasoning that made those fact was decimated from TWWs release.

After 2002 LttP-LoZ was still very possible, but a 1998 interview confirming that would no longer be evidence of current developer intent after everything that those quotes were based upon were destroyed.

Don't get me wrong, LttP-LoZ may very well be more likely, but a 1998 interview isn't evidence for that after the release of TWW screwing with all of its reasoning.

Also, LA has been confirmed multiple times to come after LttP. After Ganon has been killed in LttP, Link went away for training abroad. When he was returning to Hyrule (6 years later, according to AST), LA happened...

Was confirmed 12 years ago before the release of certain games like MM (I don't see the reasoning behind MM-LA, but a 1998 confirmation wouldn't matter in the face of 2000 intent) or OoX.

Original intent =/= current intent

 

[Pinecove]

t didn't necessarily add evidence to OoT-LoZ-LttP, more like it took evidence away from OoT-LttP-LoZ.

TWW absolutely destroyed the connections between OoT and LttP (while OoT=SW was still possible, everything that the confirmations were based upon were completely destroyed). The things that an OoT-LttP-LoZ confirmation was based upon were destroyed. While still possible, the original reasoning that made those fact was decimated from TWWs release.

After 2002 LttP-LoZ was still very possible, but a 1998 interview confirming that would no longer be evidence of current developer intent after everything that those quotes were based upon were destroyed.

No, sot you have it wrong.

ALttP was developed as a prequel to LoZ.
TWW only destroyed connections between OoT and ALttP because it took out the direct connection of the SW. Nowhere did it destroy the connections from AlttP and LoZ.

 

[sign of table]

^LoZ only had to be after LttP because it didn't fit as the first game in the timeline. Then OoT came out, so it could feasibly be before LttP, except LttP had deep ties to OoT and had to be right after it (using in-game evidence).

With those ties removed, pretty much all of the intent behind the previous confirmations of LttP-LoZ are likely gone as well (since the only thing that made LttP-LoZ more likely in 1998 was the SW which got raped by TWW).

TWW doesn't disprove LttP-LoZ, but the release of TWW makes LoZ-LttP a valid alternative (kinda like with the whole LA thing. While the release of OoX in no way disproves LttP/LA, it makes much of the evidence released prior to it moot by providing a valid alternative).

 

[Pinecove]

I call bull****. We have NO reason for the intent to have changed. And recent games such as ST and TP seem to have enforced that.

 

[sign of table]

We don't have anything that indicates that the alternative (LoZ-LttP) is true because of TWW, BUT think about what supported LttP-LoZ. In 1991 it was because LoZ could not fit as the first game in the timeline, so the only alternative would've been LttP-LoZ (reinforced by the box). In 1998 LoZ didn't fit between OoT and LttP because of LttPs connections to OoT. TWW severed those connections pretty badly, to the point where the alternative was very, very possible.

Like I said, it doesn't add evidence to LoZ-LttP, but it takes away everything that made LoZ-LttP impossible and makes it a very valid alternative.

After TWW, while we don't have any particular reason to believe in LoZ-LttP, we don't have any reason to believe in LttP-LoZ.

Do you get what I'm saying? Intent may not have changed and LttP-LoZ may still intended even now, but we have absolutely no way to know that because everything that supported the previous confirmations of LttP-LoZ are gone.

If the evidence behind the previous confirmations are all completely gone, I really don't see how those confirmations are relevant anymore. If all evidence supporting a confirmation is destroyed later on, that really seems to me like a signal that that confirmation is outdated.

 

[Pinecove]

we don't have any reason to believe in LttP-LoZ.

Except for official advertisements and the Miyamoto quote, etc.

Do you get what I'm saying? Intent may not have changed and LttP-LoZ may still intended even now, but we have absolutely no way to know that because everything that supported the previous confirmations of LttP-LoZ are gone.

If the evidence behind the previous confirmations are all completely gone, I really don't see how those confirmations are relevant anymore. If all evidence supporting a confirmation is destroyed later on, that really seems to me like a signal that that confirmation is outdated.

With your logic, I could say the timeline is linear because it may have been intended back then but not now!

Original intent may not = current intent, but original intent definitely shows us what intent may be now.

 

[sign of table]

Except for official advertisements and the Miyamoto quote, etc.

Way to pick apart my post, and quote it without its original context thus changing the meaning of the quote entirely...

With your logic, I could say the timeline is linear because it may have been intended back then but not now!

Where the hell are you getting that? Which release has done ANYTHING to retcon all of the in-game proof for a split timeline to possibly indicate a retcon?

That's not the logic I'm using at all. My chain of logic goes like this:

In 1991 the SW prevented LoZ from being the first game in the timeline, thus the timeline was LttP-LoZ.
In 1998 the SW connections between OoT and LttP meant that LoZ could not go between OoT and LttP. This is the time when LttP-LoZ was confirmed.
In 2002 TWW completely and utterly severed the LttP connections to OoT, thus removing the reason behind the LttP-LoZ confirmation of 1998.
If the in-game reasons for LttP-LoZ have been retconned and completely destroyed after the confirmation, then it only makes sense that the quote is completely unreliable for deciding on CURRENT intent.

If the reasoning behind that quote is impossible now, then why is the quote a reliable source of current intent

Original intent may not = current intent, but original intent definitely shows us what intent may be now.

And that original intent becomes outdated when everything that it was based upon is retconned.

The OoT=SW quote means absolutely nothing now when trying to support OoT=SW, as EVERY SINGLE BIT OF EVIDENCE pointing towards OoT=SW from 1998 got destroyed with TWW. It didn't make OoT=SW impossible, but it got rid of everything it was originally based upon, which clearly makes its old confirmation outdated.

Same thing with a 1998 interview confirming LttP-LoZ. All the evidence for it got destroyed by TWW. It's not impossible, but if everything we had in-game has been retconned, then the confirmations before the retcons that we KNOW happened are very, very untrustworthy.

 

[Mases]

Except for official advertisements and the Miyamoto quote, etc.

Can you clarify what you mean by the official advertisements? Are you referring to the ALTTP/FS advertisements or the original SNES version?

Do you get what I'm saying? Intent may not have changed and LttP-LoZ may still intended even now, but we have absolutely no way to know that because everything that supported the previous confirmations of LttP-LoZ are gone.

All the lead up to A Link to the Past pointed it to being a prequel to the original Legend of Zelda.

August 1991 - Nintendo Power (Three months before the release of the Japanese version) this quote was found in Nintendo Power: "The story behind Zelda III links with the past in that the hero is an ancestor of Link (also named Link) and the main maiden he must rescue is an ancestor of Zelda."
Source: http://www.zeldadungeon.net/plogger/plog-content/images/nintendo-power/issue-027/100.jpg

January 1992 - Nintendo Power (After Japanese release but pre-US release) this quote was found in Nintendo Power: "Predecessors of Link and Zelda must battle a mysterious wizard, and the evil forces behind him, as he attempts to release dark forces on the unsuspecting people of Hyrule."
Source: http://www.zeldadungeon.net/plogger/plog-content/images/nintendo-power/issue-032/090.jpg

It seems clear the advertisements/magazines in the lead up to the release of ALTTP were certainly in line with ALttP-LoZ/AoL, both in pre-release and in post release. It seems the only quote that says anything else, is the quote from Miyamoto in Nintendo Power giving the Miyamoto order. (By the way, does anybody know exactly where this came from)...

http://web.archive.org/web/19991005164112/www.zelda64.com/hr_main_mi.htm
I have that source, but it says it's in the Nintendo Power January vol 116 issue, but that interview isn't in that magazine.

 

[sign of table]

Can you clarify what you mean by the official advertisements? Are you referring to the ALTTP/FS advertisements or the original SNES version?

I think he's talking about the box.

All the lead up to A Link to the Past pointed it to being a prequel to the original Legend of Zelda.

I haven't denied that. I'm saying that the in-game evidence that those things were based upon (IE the in-game reasons for WHY it had to go LttP-LoZ) were destroyed by TWW, which means that alternatives (like LoZ-LttP) were then possible, due to those quotes being outdated.

Like I said, those quotes were only there because the ONLY possibility in 1991 and 1998 (using in-game evidence) was LttP-LoZ. LoZ couldn't fit as the first game in the timeline, so it went LttP-LoZ in 1991, and LoZ couldn't fit between OoT and LttP (using in-game evidence) because of the SW connections.

TWW shattered those connections (the connections are still possible, but like this, the reasons behind those connections are gone), which means, using in-game evidence, that alternatives ARE possible now.

Which definitely indicates that those quotes for LttP-LoZ are outdated right now, considering EVERYTHING that timeline was based on is 100% impossible now. The timeline got retconned. It may still go LttP-LoZ, but those 1991 and 1998 confirmations mean nothing after the release of TWW destroying everything that those confirmations were based upon.

Think of it like this:
If TWW had been released in 1998, there would've been no evidence for the claim that the timeline went LttP-LoZ. Absolutely none, except the word of developers (which, while imo the most important thing, is retconned very often, and games are evidence of retcons if the games come out after the quotes). Of course if that quote had been made at the same time TWW was released I wouldn't be having this argument, as there would've been no evidence of a retcon; because the quote would've been AFTER TWW was made. But it wasn't. TWW came out like 4 years after that quote, and changed everything about the timeline.

If all of the in-game evidence for something that was confirmed in the past is retconned and no longer exists, that seems like a very clear indication that said confirmation is outdated.

 

[Pinecove]

Sign:

1. I'm reffering to the things Masses posted.
2.
Okay, let's look at it your way:

LoZ comes before ALttP.
Where?

Before OoT? Impossible due to Triforce in SR.
After TP and before ALttP? Impossible due to state of Triforce, Ganon and continuity with Hyrule.
After ST and before the FSS? Impossible due to ruining the direct continuity of force.

I agree that LoZ and ALttP can be on separate timelines. However, I don't believe they can come in reverse order on the same timeline. Why? Because not only does it ruin continuity, but ALttP's Hyrule is one country, and LoZ refers back to the days when Hyrule WAS one country.