Team Fortress 2: Mann vs. Machine

[ectoBiologist]

The other person she called out is Toxic_Snowman for believing Storm was town. @Toxic_Snowman Why did you hold this belief? Perhaps you already mentioned it previously, and I missed the detail, but I think it would be helpful if you could restate your last day position about Storm to start off this day. Coincidentally enough, you were also one of the people who was in support of a no lynch, which would favor the mafia more than it would help the town.

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I believed Storm was Town because of two major reasons.

One, he acted quite similar in the last game, and therefore it seemed like scummy behavior was just his play style and personality, and not concrete evidence of him being Mafia.

Two, Storm claimed Red Medic, not just Doctor, or Medic. If he didn't know about colors, he probably wouldn't have brought it up. I didn't find it likely that he would have just guessed that there were roles of each color before anybody else did. Judging by his real role, Red Heavy, it is now confirmed that he was trying to cover his real role up by saying he was Medic, and then sticking his team color on the front to make it more believable. And, not to mention, Deku told him after his claim not to name claim, only role claim, so that pretty much confirmed the color system immediately after, giving Storm some more credibility as being Town.

And on the no lynch topic, at first, I felt like I would rather have a no lynch than killing Storm, who I believed to be Town. But after people criticized that opinion, and stated it would be better to have a lynch of a Townie than to miss out on a potential gain of information, I realized that a no lynch wouldn't be effective in finding Mafia. I still didn't vote afterwards, because Storm already had enough votes on him, and if I voted I could risk helping ending the Day early. I didn't want that because there was still valuable time for discussion between the Town, and time for potentially changing targets for lynching to someone more suspicious.

 

[Soul]

I need to think that through.
I have not played a game for nearly 2 years now, so Sadia has played a number of game without me in it. So I do not know everyone who has been close to her. And even if you would analyse all her games, the culprit might also have been a moderator who took an interest in how she excercised her role. A bit hard to say.
From my personal knowledge, I would say Pendio, me, Vergo, Mido and Tristan. (every member of CCC for sure. She also played a great game in Pirates 2, I believe most of the players I mentioned her were in positions back then that were connected to her in some way). For other players I need to do some research.
But in all honesty, I see all players I mentioned above as not super likely to be scum, right now. although Mido could be a possibility. But is Mido the type to hunt his kills like that? I'm not sure, I've never been on a mafia team with him. But his personality is a bit more laid-back, and accepting the events. I would not suspect him to have led this kill. To support it, yes, but to suggest it and convince everyone?

Pendio and Tristan I agree on. I'm neutral on Vergo and Mido, could you elaborate why you don't find these two suspicious? You I'm slightly suspicious of, but I have to admit you're doing a pretty good job of answering my questions. One thing I still don't agree on though:

I meant that they could use him/her in such a way. But none, obviously I knew that was wishful thinking. So I needed to find a solution to the problem. Without a solution the plan would be nearly worthless, so I rather wanted to think first before making this problem public instead of torpedoing the plan first.

Yes, the plan would have been nearly useless, but it would have been anyway due to the colour system. Putting that aside for a moment since it wasn't known at the time, the mafia, if they have a roleblocker, knew that the plan was useless either way. Keeping it secret that you suspect them to have one serves no purpose. Keeping it secret from the town because you know they have one does, however.

That you hid this information from the town makes no sense to me unless you're scum. Not saying you are right now, but you have yet to convince me there's a logical reason for a town player to make this kind of play.

Seeing as it's public knowledge that there's likely a second doctor who might protect Malon on Night One if they can, it makes total sense for the mafia to go after someone else that night, which they did.

 

[Soul]

As for making a connection between Sadia's early death and possible scum members, you make a fair point. I never thought you could find out who the scum are just from that anyway. All I wanted were some pointers, which might come in useful later in the game. I'll be keeping the players you mentioned in mind.

 

[Pen]

From my personal knowledge, I would say Pendio, me, Vergo, Mido and Tristan. (every member of CCC for sure. She also played a great game in Pirates 2, I believe most of the players I mentioned her were in positions back then that were connected to her in some way). For other players I need to do some research.
But in all honesty, I see all players I mentioned above as not super likely to be scum, right now.

Yesterday you voted for me out of suspicion. Today you do not see me as likely to be scum? I would like to know what caused you to change your mind.

That you hid this information from the town makes no sense to me unless you're scum. Not saying you are right now, but you have yet to convince me there's a logical reason for a town player to make this kind of play.

I agree completely with this. I am not suspicious of Kirion to the point where I would like to lynch him, but I am indeed wary of him.

 

[Frozen Chosen]

but he conveniently left out the possibility of a mafia roleblocker until Night Owl (I believe) brought it up.

Twas me who brought it to light. For better or for worse.

Storm's town-flip strengthens Pendio's position like I suggested at the end of last day, and that of Johnny as well. Johnny was not aware of the odd/even-night division of power, which caught my interest because I did not think VT's were in the game, but now that they have been confirmed, it's at least possible that Johnny is town and did not have that info.

After Sadia's flip, I'm more suspicious of Johnny Sooshi. I tried to look back to see the actual post which points out he didn't know about the power division, but I can't find it. I'll keep looking. If that post exists, Johnny would become my target.

 

[Soul]

After Sadia's flip, I'm more suspicious of Johnny Sooshi. I tried to look back to see the actual post which points out he didn't know about the power division, but I can't find it. I'll keep looking. If that post exists, Johnny would become my target.

Is this the one you're talking about?

This made me think of something actually. Malon hinted at not necessarily being able to use his power every day. What if the team aspect of TF2 means one is, say even day, one is odd day when it comes to specific powers? Thoughts?

I thought the same thing. He's likely either scum or a townie. In which case, if we can't get a decent lead today, he could be a good lynchee, since at worst we'll lose a vanilla townie if it's a mislynch. That said, I think it's too early to push for a lynch, since he hasn't done anything else that could incriminate him.

I'll look back through the thread and try to come up with a list of potential suspects later today.

 

[Ver-go-a-go-go]

If we're going by this logic, it's surprising that Sadia was killed and not kokirion or Pendio. This is the first I'm hearing of Sadia's reputation here, while koki and Pendio are both pretty well known. That said, I find kokirion to be more suspicious than Pendio, who's arguments often fall in line with my own.

Hmm, "reputation" is a relative term. If we're talking about reputation since the beginning of 2015, I honestly have clue who would have one. From what I understand, this is the first game back for quite a few people in a long time, including Pendio, Koko, and myself (my last game was late 2014).

It's common for veteran players to be targeted early on this site (If Viral Maze ever makes it past like day three I'm instantly suspicious, lol), so I would hazard a guess that the mafia is at least generally aware of what Sadia is capable of.

And after looking over this thread, as well as refreshing myself on games past, I think some pieces are falling into place ever so slightly.

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From my personal knowledge, I would say Pendio, me, Vergo, Mido and Tristan. (every member of CCC for sure. She also played a great game in Pirates 2, I believe most of the players I mentioned her were in positions back then that were connected to her in some way). For other players I need to do some research.

Ahhh, you see, it's very interesting that you brought up Pirates 2, because that was literally the first thing that popped into my head at the start of the day, and what prompted me to look over that game again.

Although you, Pendio, and I contributed to the most dominant mafia performance on this site at one time, surely you remember the sound thrashing you and I got in Pirates 2 due to a single meddle-some doctor?

That doctor was, of course, Sadia, who near flawlessly predicted our nightkills just about every time and is the main reason we never got close to winning that game along with her identifying who both of us were pretty quick. I never forget when I just get plain beaten in mafia - when another player just straight-up intellectually out-maneuvers me, and Sadia along with Pendio in Members vs Mods (long live the kool kids kult) are the two occasions I don't think I'll be forgetting anytime soon.

I think you're the same way. You know who's most dangerous in this game, because you've been around a while. But hey, this isn't even an FOS at this point, because it may just be me forming ideas in my head..... although your determination to get Pendio out of the way super-early is something that's helping me push that forward a bit.

 

[Johnny Sooshi]

Well I can't say I'm not surprised at being as suspicious after yesterday, and I am sorry for pushing to understand the game mechanic.

As to Sadia's death, I'm inclined to lean toward someone who finds her play style dangerous. Obviously suck targeted her because they felt she was a potential threat. However, I think it's very clear we have a Vig in the form of the Sniper character.

With a grinding and a clanking, someone approached the tent that belonged to Sadia. Oil leaked out of one of their joints - they'd need the boss to fix that later.
They approached the tent, hearing a humming from the inside. They tore it open and looked down at her, when suddenly the assuming heard a zipping noise, and Sadia collapsed in front of him.
"Gotcha, you bomb-lobbin wanker," someone breathed, about a mile away. As he said that, it suddenly hit him who his target was "Oh..."

It's pretty obvious considering the person shot from an extreme distance, and in the TF2 franchise the Sniper is Australian which matches the syntax in the character. So whoever the Sniper/Vig was, they obviously they obviously thought Sadia was scum. The reasoning was probably due to her lack of activity. My guess is our Vig is someone newer to mafia. That being said, I'd implore our Vig to not kill someone on a small hunch with very little evidence.

I'll be looking at some stuff from yesterday and figuring out who I think is scum.

 

[HeroOfTime]

So does anyone have an actual suspect that they wish to vote for as of yet, or are we all just exchanging possible targets.

I'm personally partial to Johnny Sooshi, because of the quote that @Soul brought up:

This made me think of something actually. Malon hinted at not necessarily being able to use his power every day. What if the team aspect of TF2 means one is, say even day, one is odd day when it comes to specific powers? Thoughts?

But also the fact that @Pendio, @A Link In Time, and other known good mafia players weren't targeted means that they could be scum.

 

[Soul]

Well I can't say I'm not surprised at being as suspicious after yesterday, and I am sorry for pushing to understand the game mechanic.

As to Sadia's death, I'm inclined to lean toward someone who finds her play style dangerous. Obviously suck targeted her because they felt she was a potential threat. However, I think it's very clear we have a Vig in the form of the Sniper character.



It's pretty obvious considering the person shot from an extreme distance, and in the TF2 franchise the Sniper is Australian which matches the syntax in the character. So whoever the Sniper/Vig was, they obviously they obviously thought Sadia was scum. The reasoning was probably due to her lack of activity. My guess is our Vig is someone newer to mafia. That being said, I'd implore our Vig to not kill someone on a small hunch with very little evidence.

I'll be looking at some stuff from yesterday and figuring out who I think is scum.

Good point, I didn't catch that. I think the mafia was involved too though. If you read carefully, it says that someone approached the tent and looked down at her, their joints leaking oil. That could only have been a robot, i.e. the mafia. The way I understand the flavour text, the vig is the one who made the kill, but the mafia was evidently either about to do the same, or it was a roleblocker who for some reason decided to block Sadia that night. That's very unlikely though, because it wouldn't make sense for the roleblocker to target Sadia when the mafia knows Malon is the doctor.

If my theory is correct, the fact that the vig shot Sadia is actually a good thing, because we now know that vigilante attacks have priority over mafia kills, which might be useful later. Sadia would have died either way.

 

[Johnny Sooshi]

Good point, I didn't catch that. I think the mafia was involved too though. If you read carefully, it says that someone approached the tent and looked down at her, their joints leaking oil. That could only have been a robot, i.e. the mafia. The way I understand the flavour text, the vig is the one who made the kill, but the mafia was evidently either about to do the same, or it was a roleblocker who for some reason decided to block Sadia that night. That's very unlikely though, because it wouldn't make sense for the roleblocker to target Sadia when the mafia knows Malon is the doctor.

If my theory is correct, the fact that the vig shot Sadia is actually a good thing, because we now know that vigilante attacks have priority over mafia kills, which might be useful later. Sadia would have died either way.

Yeah, it's most likely the mafia were aiming to kill her.

Also, I wouldn't assume the vig has priority. If both targeted her and she was going to die anyway, that may just be the fact that Deku wanted to write the scene a certain way.

 

[Pen]

After Sadia's flip, I'm more suspicious of Johnny Sooshi. I tried to look back to see the actual post which points out he didn't know about the power division, but I can't find it. I'll keep looking. If that post exists, Johnny would become my target.

Now, I know that I was the one who originally brought forth this accusation on Johnny yesterday, however, since we now know that VTs exist in this game, I am no longer quite as inclined to lynch Johnny. Sure, more likely than not, he is either a VT, a third party role, or Mafia, so lynching him would (in a worst case scenario) not be terrible for the town. Nevertheless, I have no reason other than this to suspect him, so at this time I do not think we have that strong a case against him. That being said, I would not be completely opposed to lynching him.

 

[Johnny Sooshi]

Now, I know that I was the one who originally brought forth this accusation on Johnny yesterday, however, since we now know that VTs exist in this game, I am no longer quite as inclined to lynch Johnny. Sure, more likely than not, he is either a VT, a third party role, or Mafia, so lynching him would (in a worst case scenario) not be terrible for the town. Nevertheless, I have no reason other than this to suspect him, so at this time I do not think we have that strong a case against him. That being said, I would not be completely opposed to lynching him.

I'd certainly rather not be lynched, but if the town can't find anything else to go on today, I'm willing to be a policy lynch. However, I think we should deal with that later in this day. I'd like to hear some suspicions from people.

 

[Dan]

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I believed Storm was Town because of two major reasons.

One, he acted quite similar in the last game, and therefore it seemed like scummy behavior was just his play style and personality, and not concrete evidence of him being Mafia.

Two, Storm claimed Red Medic, not just Doctor, or Medic. If he didn't know about colors, he probably wouldn't have brought it up. I didn't find it likely that he would have just guessed that there were roles of each color before anybody else did. Judging by his real role, Red Heavy, it is now confirmed that he was trying to cover his real role up by saying he was Medic, and then sticking his team color on the front to make it more believable. And, not to mention, Deku told him after his claim not to name claim, only role claim, so that pretty much confirmed the color system immediately after, giving Storm some more credibility as being Town.

And on the no lynch topic, at first, I felt like I would rather have a no lynch than killing Storm, who I believed to be Town. But after people criticized that opinion, and stated it would be better to have a lynch of a Townie than to miss out on a potential gain of information, I realized that a no lynch wouldn't be effective in finding Mafia. I still didn't vote afterwards, because Storm already had enough votes on him, and if I voted I could risk helping ending the Day early. I didn't want that because there was still valuable time for discussion between the Town, and time for potentially changing targets for lynching to someone more suspicious.

I understand why people lynched storm but the people playing this game didn't help by mirroring his behaviour back toward him, that's incredibly amateur in itself which I'm sure you can all agree with but also a little mean. Not going to lie I actually got a little upset when some people were actually being incredibly negative about him and making it personal, and yes I did cry a little. Storm wasn't the only person causing the emotional roller-coaster. We need to learn to handle GeGe players better as I dislike using living beings with brains capable of ripping the wool from peoples eye as mere cannon fodder.

@Pendio

What are your thoughts on players:

Herooftime, Toxic Snowman, Soul

Also... are you okay? Emotionally I mean?

 

[kokirion]

I guess I need to clarify a couple of things that have been addressed to me.

To start with the RB thingy. It's never been an idea that I "deliberately" hid, that's a misunderstanding. What I originally said, and what this accusation is based on, is that I realised it right after I made the post. I then did not made a second post right away, because it was an idea that had just popped into my head. Obviously I could not have overseen all consequences of a possible RB on the mafia team within a splitt second of figuring out that maybe an RB is at play, and most important how to deal with this. I cannot make a proper post if I have not even my own thoughts on one line. Please do not exaggerate the story, it seems as if it's starting to get a life of its own.

Refering to Pendio's accusation, that I now very swiftly jumped between accusing him/not accusing him, you either did not thoroughly read my posts or this is a deliberate attempt to put me in a bad light.
If any of you would just look at my posts and do your homework, you will see that I have always been very careful with my words. I'm not gonna quote myself again because if some of you are suspicious of me or even accusing me it's your own job to do your homework. But I clearly said that yes I thought Pendio had scummy tendencies, and during day 1 for me he was the most suspicious person, with the limited amount of evidence available in that period, but that I was not a 100% sure about it. Even further, I said I was not planning on starting a mafia fight with Pendio at that moment because I was not confident enought about my position towards him, I wanted to stay flexible and judge the evidence about him fairly. I don't need to kill Pendio, I need to kill the mafia. If he's one of them, he's my target, if not then I have no reason to pursue him.
Before the end of the day I said that (look up the post) after analysing his messages again, his accusation towards me that if Storm flipped scum my position will also look very bad, I did not think it was likely that if Storm was town and Pendio scum he would've made this statement (for the exact statement and my reasoning, again, look at my posts). Storm indeed flipped town, and so that was a positive note for Pendio's case. I noted this, and either due to disinterest or foul play am I now being accused of making "a sudden move". If anyone would read my posts, there's nothing sudden about it, it's been a very logical and fair step.

I would very much like to vote for Pendio right now, and try to get rid of him. I do not understand his accusations against me, which seem to me as a smear campaign. He never even mentioned me until I mentioned him (that was clearly an OMGUS response). Every further accusation has either been an emotional one or a distortion of facts. Officially he's not voting for me, but (and knowing Pendio) this is obviously a prelude to an open attack on me later in the game. Throwing around enough suspicion, making people doubt me for long enough, distorting facts, and when they start to get a life of their own it will be a vote.
But I'm not gonna vote for Pendio. Because as I said, after re-analysing the situation, the evidence at hand right now tells me he's more likely to be town. So at this moment I'm not gonna campaign to lynch Pendio. Nonetheless, I do not understand his actions (scum OR town).


To the other people that have stated they are wary of me. I fully understand it. I know, it's due to my personality. And yes, I've manipulated the town before, when I was mafia, with far more megalomanic schemes and (nearly) gotten away with it. So why trust me now?
But think about it. In every major game I've played at ZD (or at CCC), when I was scum I was mostly trusted. When I was town, everyone was suspicious of me. Pirates 2, I replaced Pancake as a mafia member and shred of the scumminess (for a while). At Kid Icarus some people even outrightly stated they thought I was a VT (while I was mafia) etc.. At Green Lantern, no one ever accused me etc.. But everytime I've been town, such as in Radiant Historia mafia, and at the private CCC games, I was always under fire. For those who played in our last CCC game, did you remember when Tristan, LG and I were the only ones left? I hit the nail completely about what was going on, but I was lynched, because I was not trusted. This game is a similar case. Really guys, yes I could be playing some strange meta right now and secretly be scum, but look at my current situation, how likely is that really in my current situation? So many people talking about the possibility of me being scum. If I was mafia right now I would do a hell of a bad job. For those that have played with me before when I really was mafia, wouldn't you think I could do a tiny bit better? I would've manipulated the discussions in such a way that this situation would never occur. I know my role, but if I try to look objectively at my current playstyle, I do not see the scummy atmosphere around me some players try to portray on me. But as I said, I understand people are generally wary of me. It's good to be critical, but come with objective results.