Super Smash Mafia 2: Originals vs Clones - Game Thread

[Jamie]

last night was n4 loser

 

[Justac00lguy]

I like JC this game, but I don't like playing the numbers game, especially when we don't know.
@JC-Hurin could you provide a list of your reasonings against Fro one more time? I'd like to see that again
As for Pen, I find his claim interesting, but doubtful. Unless you can provide some chink in your role-armor (weakeness to items or roleblockers, for example), I think you're my next target. I also plan on keeping watch on Toxic, but we'll see if Pendio's attack offs him

Sure. By the way I've redone the formating so it's easier to read:





First post seems incredibly scummy looking back. Why should we spread out damage? For one that defeats the object of one lynch a day. And two, this will take a long time to get a first kill allowing Mafia to pick people off during the night and make calculated day attacks later on in the game while everyone is vulnerable. @Frozen Chosen I really want to know your through process here because this tactic is a one way ticket to a Mafia win.

Actually Sadia, who flipped scum, echoed the idea. Was this Mafia's first tactic to manipulate Town by using the new unique setup of the game to turn things in their favour straight from the off. We also see other scum interject their thoughts with Johnny sitting on the fence and Alit trying disagreeing. This is a common tactic from scum early on. One or two present an idea, another scum sits on the fence and the other completely disagrees.

Looking back though, this was Day One and I could definitely see scum getting on board with this idea. And look who disagrees:

I dislike that approach. I'm not gonna join in a forced everyone attacks someone this day to give every player some basic damage.

From all we know, (and I read the last game) some nightkills might not give enough damage to kill everyone. If we now give everyone damage, we make everyone weaker. And why would we? It's still early, so if we think someone is scummy we can still easily kill that person the same day. And hell, I don't want any damage just because you want to be able to more easily kill me later. As a rational but distrusting individual, I highly oppose that.

I suggest everyone just does whatever they want (as in, don't spread it out too much, just honestly attack someone today if you feel he/she is the most suspicious, but don't feel forced to attack either). Additionally, I do think we should kill at least one person per day. That way we do gain some valuable leads.

He gave a great response that completely shifted the tactic of damage everyone. Could this be the reason why Koki was killed? It's also interesting that right after Koki says this, two confirmed scum are the first to reply. And they seem to somewhat agree with Koki.

After seemingly a unanimous disagreement to his idea, Frozen backs out. Then he just says he "doesn't know what to do". Also look at this post from Sadia after everyone disagreed with the idea:

Well, I had one thought. Many people disagreed with the notion of everybody getting a little damage today, and I couldn't help but wonder if there was scum among that group. Naturally mafia don't want damage on themselves, so they'd disagree. Of course there must be Townies who just didn't like the idea or thought it was unfair, but this is where my train of thought is going as of now.

Keep in mind hat Sadia is scum. She immediately deflects the blame on to those who disagreed with Frozen's idea. Remember the only advocates for this idea so far are Frozen, Sadia (scum), Eduarda (3rd party) and maybe Heroine; though she was on he fence. Was she saving her own ass as well as Frozen's here? Alit also makes a comment on Frozen:

Okay, so Frozen Chosen was the first one to ask peoples’ opinions about how to plan attack strategies during the game. It’s not necessarily alignment indicative, but it’s an important post because it’s generated the most discussion of all the posts in the game thus far. At the end of the post, Frozen Chosen voices his support for wanting every player to damage a different player.

Why is Alit sugar coating what Frozen did? Seems like he's focusing more on the fact that Frozen generated discussion than the fact that he offered an attack plan that only works in scums favour, which pretty much everyone disagreed with. Hell Alit disagreed with Frozen (obviously he was lying to look good), but look at this ****ing post:

I’m not ruling out the possibility of them being scum just yet, but I feel pretty good about Frozen Chosen, Kokirion, and Doc for generating so much discussion and bringing their ownviewpoints to the table, which is something scum may be afraid to do, especially if someone disagrees with them.

Alit thinks he's Town because he "generated discussion" and then he groups him in with two other players. Looking back at Day One, Frozen looks incredibly scummy and this post from Alit, as well as Sadia's, look like damage control. Can't also leave out that Alit also, later on in the same post, says he's wary of Frozen still. But wait...

Also, this is pure conjecture, but I still feel good about Doc, and I feel better about Frozen Chosen, since they were the other two people to first suggest alternate methods to attacking.

"Feel even better about Frozen"??? Make your mind up Alit. Why is he making an effort to say this about Frozen? Keep in mind that Alit says the reason for Mafia's kill on Koki was because he was experienced. Obviously that wasn't the only reason because Koki was one of the most vocal against Frozen's idea. So perhaps Alit was quickly trying to brush what happened with Frozen yesterday under the rug.

---

So after Alit slipped up and both Eduarda and Tristan were pushing for Alit's lynch, Frozen gave his thoughts:

I thought the same thing too. And people are pointing out how similar it was to Sooshi in TF2. But, in the end, I pushed for Johnny's lynch and he really was VT.

That being said, couldn't their be an "original VT" from smash?

Seems to me like he's not advocating for his lynch or directly defending him. He's more so justifying it. Keep in mind that Alit is scum of course. He made a mistake, but it's still early and this is where damage control is needed. Other people also somewhat 'defended' Alit, but Frozen was the first and he used part of Tristan's post to justify Alit's action.

Sadia then supports Alit's lynch and Frozen decides to switch all of a sudden:

Hmmm... I think going with slip ups and mistakes is the right way to go. I mean sure, people are bound to make mistakes. ALIT may have just made a mistake, but we probably can't let it slide unless a bigger lead is given. Inactive lynches could work but maybe we should just attack and not kill, similar to a pressure vote.

I'm not a fan of no lynches unless we are reaching lylo. But that's my opinion.

I think attacking ALIT is for the best.

Attack: A Link In Time

Also keep in mind that Mafia love to suck up to people they're threatened by. I said this at the beginning of Day Three and Johnny did this exact thing, which is why I killed him. Notice that Sadia also sucked up to Eduarda and now Frozen. Where has all this false confidence come from? Remember Mafia know who's Scum and who's not, so actively supporting Eduarda seems to them like they're getting huge Townie points and lynching scum pretty much nails it on the head. Sadia's post indicates to me that Mafia made a decision that Alit was in trouble and was going to be lynched, so it seems a little bit too convenient that Frozen changes his mind and attacks Alit.

Later on in the day though Frozen seems to have a clash with Johnny (who is now confirmed as scum). It's probably the only thing that is making me doubt my claim. But scum often pretend to argue or literally just disagree in the game (I know I've don't this before). The main thing that I making me tentative though is that Johnny isn't jumping to lynch Alit while Frozen did. If Mafia came to the conclusion to lynch Alit then why isn't Johnny doing this to gain Town credit? This is a major flaw in my suspicion.

However, another post by Alit. Alit is dying here and this post stands out and again it's about Frozen... That's not all though:

Honestly, I'm still not feeling Johnny and Frozen Chosen. Maybe I'm being too paranoid about this, but they were my next two suspects for attack after Regal.

Alit felt "really good" about Frozen, but not now?? This **** is confusing me.

---

Day Two in the Mafia House and Frozen defends Johnny's claim:

We can't ignore that possibility; although, the way Sooshi handled himself tells me otherwise.

Also does this interaction reek of trying to quickly draw attention away from Johnny? Seems like a joint effort. They continue the discussion and pass the blame to Doc. Though Frozen does actually say he would attack either Sadia or Cthulhu. But then we have this post:

THANKYOU SO MUCH FOR BRINGING THIS UP! That idea came to my mind yesterday, but I totally forgot about. Thanks for reminding me. To me, that means something doesn't add up. If Johnny roleblocked Eduarda, then Eduarda's ability shouldn't work, right? Unless it goes through no matter what. But if Johnny blocked Eduarda, then anybody who targeted her would not get damaged. @Eduarda@Johnny Sooshi What do you think?

Right now it looks like Sadia and Cthulhu are in the firing line until someone brings up that Eduarda could have been RB'ed. And now Frozen jumps right on board because, guess what, if she was RB'ed then it completely clears Sadia and Cthulhu from suspicion. And Mafia didn't know that Eduarda was told that RBs couldn't effect her. Frozen seemed way too excited here at the possibility of Eduarda being RB'ed which clears Sadia of suspicion because she targeted Eduarda.

Frozen also asks Eduarda this:

Do you get pms if someone targets you?

Paranoid?

---

I do have to admit though, Frozen actually attacks Sadia. Keep in mind though, this was when Johnny was a 'confirmed Town' and everyone was pretty much certain that Sadia and Cthulhu targeted Eduarda. It was obvious one was lying. And Frozen did in fact wait for Cthulhu to attack first. If I was Mafia put in this position, I would also attack Sadia. But Frozen has attacked two of his teammates at this point. He seems so ****ing scummy looking back, but I can't deny that he attacked two Mafia members. But like I said, Sadia is going to die at this point, so Frozen has to look like Town to survive and I just don't see why he's positive about Sadia over Cthulhu; he should be equally suspicious of both since only scum would know who Town and Scum are. This post here sums it up:

In regards to Chu, he should be next unless something big comes up. There is a possibility he is actually pretending to be this way, but I still believe he is genuine.

"Something big". Cthulhu could easily be scum here just as much as Sadia and only a Cop or Scum would know otherwise.


---

There's literally so much that makes Frozen look like scum, but there are certain things that make me think otherwise. He attacks both Alit and Sadia (these can be explained in the spoiler though) and he also says it was a bad idea that I attack Johnny after he was already dead. It's only fair I explain the holes in my suspicion and let you guys come to your own conclusion on who to attack during the night.

I will also say, from looking back, that I think Toxic is just as good of a target to kill. He seems incredibly scummy, but I just can't distinguish whether he's a new to the game of whether he's scum trying to look like town.

I'm not sure if this is breaking the rules, but people wanted me to post so... Anyway Toxic and Frozen are my main two suspicions from reading through the thread.

 

[Justac00lguy]

If we have a Cop then I say check out Tristan. If Pendio is spared then I think it would be wise, if we have a watcher/tracker-like role, to target him.

 

[Pen]

Wait, isn't it also impossible to get targeted at all? Like even getting roleblocked or receiving items shouldn't work, according to the wiki.

That is what I thought too, which is why I of course was surprised to get night damaged at all a few night ago. Also, after hearing early in the game about how some players find items they use, I was not surprised that I had not received any, however, obviously (as I said earlier) I did find two Mushrooms this morning right before the day started. The PM I received about it kind of confused me at first considering I am "away" all night, but the way I understood it, I simply found these two mushrooms on my way back in this morning, so I guess that was when I was technically no longer commuting. That is how I understood it anyway, so the only unsolved mystery about my role at this point really is the night damage that I took.

 

[DekuNut]

Those are some excellent points from the CoolGuy. You have me leaning on your side right now.
Frozen, rebuttal.

@Pendio no theories at all?

 

[Pen]

@Pendio no theories at all?

Hmm... Well, taking the items thing into account, about how I found the Mushrooms in the morning on my way back to the game, maybe the attack on me was performed very early in the morning too somehow after I had gotten back in but before the day had officially started. By this logic it also seems possible that the attack could have been performed right after the previous day ended, thus attacking me before I had left for the night. Either of those two theories seem possible. Either I was attacked right before leaving for the night, or I was attacked right after returning early in the morning. Obviously though, if it is something like that, then it could not have been a totally regular attack, since I can only assume most night attacks probably strike at night when I am away (why else would my role be in the game?).

Oh, and I just thought of another possible theory. What if the attack on me was some sort of homing attack? There are both items and character attacks in Smash Bros that home in on the other players, so what if I was targeted by something like that. An attack like this would have probably found its way to me even though I am commuting at night.

 

[Justac00lguy]

So yeah we need a Watcher to target Regal and a Tracker to target Pendio. If I was Cop I would go for Tristan, but I'm happy for you to target anyone else (except players who are going to be NK'd or confirmed Townies obviously). If your suspicious of me, investigate away.

 

[Justac00lguy]

Ok so has anyone ever thought about a Megaman-like role? I think it's highly possible he could be in the game and I bet my house that the role associated is close to Megaman's Smash attack gauge thing. Thoughts?

 

[Justac00lguy]

Additional notes:

@Heroine of Time Passively defends Alit and Johnny. She sits on the fence on both lynches while quickly changing topic. Then she dissappears until the next day. Not exactly a ton of evidence since she's only posted a few times, but, Heroine, you're not safe. Also she somewhat supported Frozen's 'spread the damage' idea as well. Basically what I've got from Heroine's post is an extremely passive approach with no real attempt at trying to scum hunt. She tends to use other's reasonings to form her own suspicion and passes the question off to someone else.

 

[Frozen Chosen]

Those are some excellent points from the CoolGuy. You have me leaning on your side right now.
Frozen, rebuttal.

I've replied to the post before, but I'll try to sum up my rebuttal.

ALIT was all over the place. You even say he was super confusing to understand, and I am right there with you. And the moment Eduarda pointed out ALIT's mistake, I felt like we had found scum. So I attacked first. I saw liar and I went with my gut, just like you did with Sooshi. If you look back, Sooshi was pretty upset that I attacked ALIT so soon, like I didn't give him time to protect his scum pal. At that point, Sooshi was on my scum radar, but then the "who attack Eduarda" thing happened and I was fooled by Sooshi's claim. Many were. Except you, of course.

Also, ALIT for some reason latched himself to Doc, me, and Sooshi. Eduarda later on thought I was the scum in the three because Johnny was "town". But now we know that the one hiding in the three of us was Johnny.

JC, I don't know why you are so obsessed with my first post. At first, I thought it was a good idea. I didn't want it to be hard to kill scum towards lylo because they had too much health. Kokirion also presented a good idea, but not everyone was sold on it like you say it was. I was so confused with the different opinions that I stopped and said I have no idea what would be good.

If Mafia came to the conclusion to lynch Alit then why isn't Johnny doing this to gain Town credit? This is a major flaw in my suspicion.

Oh gee, I don't know. Maybe because I'm not a Mafia member? Oh, and yes, this is a major flaw.

Seems to me like he's not advocating for his lynch or directly defending him. He's more so justifying it. Keep in mind that Alit is scum of course. He made a mistake, but it's still early and this is where damage control is needed. Other people also somewhat 'defended' Alit, but Frozen was the first and he used part of Tristan's post to justify Alit's action.

What? I was agreeing with the suspicion! Sooshi made the same mistake in TF2 and sure he flipped town, but wouldn't there be a original VT? There shouldn't be a regular VT in this game but there should be an original VT. Therefore ALIT should have known about original if he was the same as Sooshi before.

If you have any other questions for me, please ask.

 

[Pen]

@Jamie a tally would be much appreciated. I am interested in seeing whether Toxic is lynched now or not, and if so, what role he has.

I am starting to get slightly iffy on JC's suspicion on FroCho. By saying that I do not mean I suspect JC. Not at all in fact. But I am not convinced his theory is right. It definitely could be, and he is making some really good points, but it just does not all add up in my opinion. Sure, the things that are making me doubt it right now could just be clever tactics and traps that the Mafia had planned, so it really could go either way. I will need to look a bit more into it myself in order to form a better opinion on this particular matter.

 

[DekuNut]

Fro does bring up a lot of good points. Looking back after reading Fro's post, a lot of that stuff is very circumstantial, coming from the lens of Fro-Scum. Looking at it from a Null-Fro of Fro-Town lens could very easily change your perception of many of those points.
My attack remains off Fro still, though I'm still wary of Pendio, and await the death of Toxic.

 

[DekuNut]

Also, thank you both for placing your arguments one more time. It was easier than going back through your ISOs to find them

 

[Jamie]

Attacked Players:
Frozen Chosen (1) - JC-Hurin (19%)
Pendio (1) - Frozen Chosen (19%)
Toxic_Snowman (1) - Pendio (20%)

Toxic_Snowman(137%) dies
He was
Captain Falcon, a Vanilla Original
@Tristan still has his daily attack.

Living Trophies:
1. DekuNut
2. Tristan
3. Libk
4. Pendio
5. JC-Hurin
6. Heroine of Time
7. The Hero of Legend
8. Frozen Chosen
9. RegalBryant
10. Mido
11. Shroom

In the trash:
1. kokirion - Greninja, an Original Mason - was bootyblasted night 1
2. A Link In Time - Dark Pit, the Clone's 1-shot role cop - was brutally murdered day 2
3. Sadia - Toon Link, a Clone Goon - was wambam thank you man'd day 3
4. Johnny Sooshi - Lucina, the Clone's Roleblocker - was utterly destroyed day 3
5. Eduarda - Cloud, the DLC Veteran - was #rekt night 3
6. Doc - Villager, the Original Day Vig (1-shot) - Was piled on day 4
7. LittleGumball - Bowser, the Original Bodyguard (2-shot) - was speedily skewered night 4
8. Toxic_Snowman - Captain Falcon, a Vanilla Original - was held down and mauled day 5

Total Damage:
Frozen Chosen - 59%
Shroom - 54%
Pendio - 41%
Tristan - 20%
The Hero of Legend - 20%
RegalBryant - 14%
JC-Hurin - 10%
Heroine of Time - 7%

thank me for my timely and thorough count

 

[DekuNut]

Wow. Toxic was town. 0
Can we have more people pipe in on Pen and Fro? Even if you don't have anything original to say, just say which side of the fence you're on.