Song of Storms and Pre Destination Paradox

[The Jade Fist]

Now I just played thru Ocarina of Time again, and I'm left with the same question as I'm always left with at the end, where did the song of storms actually come from? Its a predestination paradox, and I don't like those types of paradoxes, because they are so unexplainable. thats the kind where an action causes a reaction that in turn causes the first action.

Such as going back in time to stop something, actually causes it.

So in order for such a cycle to even be conceivably plausible, the song had to have come from some where before link could have learned it to play it in the first place, he can't have played it, the guy in windmill heard it, and then teaches him so he can go play it back in the beginning.

So any theroies where the song came from? If we consider Termania a real place and not just a alice in wonderland type dream, but more like an alternate world, and the skullkid could go between, and the song was said to have been orchestrated by the composer brothers of Ikana. How likely is it that, the skull kid originally played the Song of Storms in the windmill in Kakariko, which then in turn causes link to learn, and play it instead on the next loop?

*just some random thoughts that hit me, after asking myself where the song could have possibly came from in the first place.

 

[bspurka]

It is something that has been put in your game to ruin your life. Link basically teaches himself the song of storms. It was most likely divine intervention.

 

[SpiritGerudo]

I think that Link, AFTER Ocarina of Time, when he was in Termina and learned the song from Sharp (or Flat? Don't know which one), went back into Hyrule after that and taught the song to Guru Guru. Then, when you meet him in the future, he knows the song and the "ocarina kid" he is referring to is you, but from after all of that. Then when you return to the past, you mess with events there and cause the timeline to split. When you go BACK TO THE FUTURE! after that, the "ocarina kid" he refers to is you from when you taught it to him. So essentially, the loop was created and affected by events that took place on a parallel time line. Then of course it gets more confusing when you think about how Link got to Termina in the first place to learn the Song of Storms to play it for Guru Guru so that he could beat Ocarina of Time and go to Termina to learn the Song of Storms and . . . yeah. More time paradoxes. You could probably go more in depth with this one too and figure out a logical answer to it, but I'm not going to right now. You can listen to Z-Talk #5 to listen to Axle the Beast explain this better than I did, I think he says about the same thing.

 

[Beauts]

The Song of Storms, along with the Sun Song, was written by the Composer Brothers. We know that much. Maybe it did make it's way through the portal from Termina... hmm. Who knows? Good point though, but I'd never really thought of it. I think you're meant to maybe view time in the game as a cyclical phenomena where everything happens once, like in the novel/movie The Time Travellers Wife. It's kind of like rewinding of fast forwarding a tape, and playing different parts out of chronological order.

 

[Cfrock]

It's a tricky business but these kinds of paradoxes show up all the time in fiction. The Terminator, Lost, Spongebob Squarepants and The Twilight Zone are all examples of ficticious works that use predestination paradoxes. Having the effect be the root of the cause (instead of the other way around) goes against standard logic and it can be frustrating trying to make sense of it.

The simple answer is, you can't. Link only learns the Song of Storms after Guru-Guru has already heard him play it. The idea that Link learnt it in Termina and then returned to Hyrule is an interesting one but since Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask don't overlap I'm hesitant to accept it.
Navi only left Link once their adventure was over and Hyrule Historia explains to us that Link then warned Zelda of Ganondorf and then spent a few months doing nothing worth mentioning it seems before borrowing Epona and riding off to find her, starting Majora's Mask. This means he already had all of his encounters with Guru-Guru before finding Termina.

In some cases, these kinds of paradoxes are the result of an ill-thought out plot or an intention to cause confusion or mystery. With regard to Ocarina of Time, I think it was just something of a gameplay element. Rather than doing something as a child and then seeing the result in the future (like with the Magic Beans) the game's designers possibly wanted to have you do something in the future that somehow affected the past. The Song of Storms was how they did that.

 

[RegalBryant]

I think that Link, AFTER Ocarina of Time, when he was in Termina and learned the song from Sharp (or Flat? Don't know which one), went back into Hyrule after that and taught the song to Guru Guru. Then, when you meet him in the future, he knows the song and the "ocarina kid" he is referring to is you, but from after all of that. Then when you return to the past, you mess with events there and cause the timeline to split. When you go BACK TO THE FUTURE! after that, the "ocarina kid" he refers to is you from when you taught it to him. So essentially, the loop was created and affected by events that took place on a parallel time line. Then of course it gets more confusing when you think about how Link got to Termina in the first place to learn the Song of Storms to play it for Guru Guru so that he could beat Ocarina of Time and go to Termina to learn the Song of Storms and . . . yeah. More time paradoxes. You could probably go more in depth with this one too and figure out a logical answer to it, but I'm not going to right now. You can listen to Z-Talk #5 to listen to Axle the Beast explain this better than I did, I think he says about the same thing.

But to get to Termina, he had to have Ganondorf arrested, which means he had to beat him in the future, which means he had to go to the bottom of the well, which means he had to have known the song of storms. Unless that's what you're saying near the bottom there.

 

[Ghirahimiscool]

Hey, you're right! Where did it come from? Hmmm. This will take some thought.

 

[Garo]

It's not so much complex as it is difficult to wrap your head around. The best way I can think to look at it involves shifting the way you view Link's time traveling - rather than strictly traveling through time, Link is experiencing a single, unbroken, unmodified timestream, but out of order. So when he goes to the future, everything that he does upon returning to the past at a later point has already happened - he just hasn't experienced it yet. So while Link experiences these things out of order, everybody else experiences things in normal temporal order.

That said, if we look at the Song of Storms paradox, it makes a bit more sense when you consider that everything happens in the correct order, but Link is experiencing the events backwards. As for where the song originated, it's not something we're really able to know given what information we are. My personal thought on that is that it's an anomaly relating to Termina - note that the song was composed by the Composer Brothers in Termina, and that Sun's Song (the song they composed in Hyrule) doesn't exist there. Link's mucking around in time likely stretched the fabric between the two universes and allowed some exchange between the two, hence the Song of Storms' presence in Hyrule, in a self-contained, stable time loop.

 

[Sir Quaffler]

Huh. I always just thought that the song originally came from the dude with the recorder... thing, I mean he's playing it even when you first enter Kakariko Village as a kid, long before you travel to the future and back and play the song of storms to drain the well. It's only when it's played on the ocarina that the song takes on the magical properties. As to the predestination paradox, it's a self-contained, stable loop, so there's not really a problem.

 

[LEGOF]

It's not so much complex as it is difficult to wrap your head around. The best way I can think to look at it involves shifting the way you view Link's time traveling - rather than strictly traveling through time, Link is experiencing a single, unbroken, unmodified timestream, but out of order. So when he goes to the future, everything that he does upon returning to the past at a later point has already happened - he just hasn't experienced it yet. So while Link experiences these things out of order, everybody else experiences things in normal temporal order.

That said, if we look at the Song of Storms paradox, it makes a bit more sense when you consider that everything happens in the correct order, but Link is experiencing the events backwards. As for where the song originated, it's not something we're really able to know given what information we are. My personal thought on that is that it's an anomaly relating to Termina - note that the song was composed by the Composer Brothers in Termina, and that Sun's Song (the song they composed in Hyrule) doesn't exist there. Link's mucking around in time likely stretched the fabric between the two universes and allowed some exchange between the two, hence the Song of Storms' presence in Hyrule, in a self-contained, stable time loop.

So far, this theory seems the most plausible. There's no way that was presented to us that reveals Link learned the Song of Storms in any other manner than the windmill man. All of that time travel Link did is sure to cause splits in universes. I wouldn't be so fast to say Link is experiencing things backwards, just out of order.

It's either that, or the very easy idea of the writers just didn't write it out well enough.

 

[Locke]

It's either that, or the very easy idea of the writers just didn't write it out well enough.

It's impossible to write a paradox in such a way that it makes sense.

 

[SpiritGerudo]

But to get to Termina, he had to have Ganondorf arrested, which means he had to beat him in the future, which means he had to go to the bottom of the well, which means he had to have known the song of storms. Unless that's what you're saying near the bottom there.

That's exactly what I'm saying I guess my theory has some issues if we're gonna get infinite paradoxes out it.