Skyward Sword Wasn't Aonuma's Fault

[Lozjam]

I know I posted this in another thread, but I think it warrants it's own discussion.

Skyward Sword has been by far the most controversial Zelda game. While the game definitely was not bad, it was a little bit lacking as a Zelda. I often see Aonuma as the culprit for all of this, however, I think it is definitely not his fault. I think that the reason that Skyward Sword was a shallower experience was because of Miyamoto. It was because of him that SMG2 did not have a real story like the original did, and it is because of him... Sticker Star.... Aonuma had almost complete free reign over WW and TP and MM. These games have deep stories with connected lore to it. There is no denying that when Aonuma had full reign of the series, the stories got infinitely more complex with the universe of Zelda connected even more.
And the Iwata Asks Interviews really pushed this aspect, that Aonuma did not want SS to be the way it did.

Aonuma: "I'm Aonuma, the producer. There have been all kinds of twists and turns since development began almost five years ago. Until completion of The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword, I talked with Director Fujibayashi about how we could take the project in a good direction, backed up the staff, and consulted with Miyamoto-san."

Iwata: "You say that there were twists and turns, but I heard there were few detours this time compared to the last game The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess3."

Aonuma: "Well…"

Fujibayashi: "We tried a bunch of things for Wii MotionPlus, but it was really quirky."

Aonuma: "Yes, exactly. No matter what we did, we couldn't tame it. Then Wii Sports Resort came out as the first game for Wii MotionPlus."

...

Aonuma: "So I proposed to the staff to not use Wii Motion Plus afterall."

Iwata: "You gave up once."

Aonuma: "Yes. Then we started making a Legend of Zelda game that you would play using the original Wii Remote and Nunchuk. But then I fell under intense pressure from some other producers, who said, "Aonuma-san, why aren't you using Wii MotionPlus?!" (laughs)"


Kobayashi: "As Aonuma-san just mentioned, we had proceeded with a plan that didn't involve using Wii MotionPlus. We had already made something basic using button controls to fight, and we had taken development to where we were going to start cranking out a bunch of variations"

Fujibayash: "In The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past9, you can pick up grass. So adding a new action was a theme whenever we made a new Zelda game. This time, we wanted to put in something before Miyamoto-san said anything and put in the dash action."

Okay Okay Wait.... Hold on here. I will say what I can interpret of this just a little bit before this post. But I just want to say. Wow. This seems like with SS, the development team had absolutely no say with Miyamoto. That's actually some oppressive stuff.

Iwata: The other day, Miyamoto-san said, "I'll never be able to play the old way again!"

Aonuma: "Yes, he's been saying that."

Iwata: "But I would imagine that Wii MotionPlus presents a new challenge to the overwhelming majority of players out there. They must feel uneasy about the controls changing so dramatically."

Aonuma: "I suppose so"

Really. Going through that whole interview again.... It provides some quite interesting insights that would honestly explain a lot. Of course, Aonuma cannot say that he was unhappy and that he didn't like the project. But seeing as all that went on, and just the simplest hints of things. It clearly provides some hostility due to the pressure Aonuma faced. It was clear that Miyamoto was way too hands on with this project, and even outright forced Aonuma and the development team to use the Wii Motion Plus. This coupled with the fact that the development was so afraid of Miyamoto turning things down that they outright hid from him the progress that they are making. I mean, this would pretty much explain everything about Skyward Sword. Developers that are scared to take new and fresh ideas, and feel oppressed, often creates very lackluster, and "safe" games. That is exactly what SS was. It lacked innovation where it counts, and as a Zelda game, it really is pretty bland and generic. Nor does it expand the lore at all.

Aonuma just tried his best with what he had. He obviously was not satisfied with what he created as a whole(even though Skyward Sword did have it's great moments). He actually seems to be just as disappointed as we were with the title, and it's hard not to blame him as to why. This may be what inspired Zelda U, and perhaps that's definitely for the better.

 

[Dio]

Yoshiaki Koizumi is someone who has spoken about his own love of adding story elements to his games especially subtle ones for the player to find out about the game world through interacting with characters within. He was one of the directors for OOT and MM and also said he hid story elements in the games so Miyamoto couldn't tell him to take them out.

Its actually quite terrible to hear, especially as I am someone who loves stories in games and coming to realise that if Miyamoto wasn't oppressing the developers then we could actually be getting better games. SS, where you have shown Miyamoto to have taken a more active role, was not the series finest at all. It was more like another 2006 game than a 2011 one. And the story didn't really go with what the other games in the series would suggest happened in the beginning.

 

[Spirit]

Over the years its felt like Miyamoto is a child who doesn't like other people playing with his toys. No one can touch f-zero because he himself doesn't have any ideas, and platinum games only got to be able to finish off Starfox Zero after Miyamoto had his fill of production.

As for Zelda, this childish selfishness has dogged Aonuma. Aonuma has never really been able to do what he wanted with a Zelda game. I remember reading that the Skyward Strike was something Miyamoto had wanted since OoT, which makes it sound like Aonuma had a list called 'what Mr Miyamoto wants in this game' and started SS from there.

I know that ALBW was something Miyamoto wanted more than Aonuma, since Miyamoto had been pressuring Aonuma to remake ALTTP, and it feels like Aonuma eventually caved on a bad compromise that ALBW would be JUST different enough that it wouldn't fall under 'remake status' (close though).

I also remember reading that Miyamoto was really hard to work with during conceptual production on Hyrule Warriors and reversed Aonuma and Tecmo's plans several times.

Aonuma isn't totally blameless for how lacklustre SS was, it doesn't feel like 5 years worth of work, but it also doesn't feel like a passion project, and I can understand that if you don't believe in something then it wont end up as good as it could.

It'd be interesting to see a Zelda game Miyamoto free, though that'll probably only happen when he's dead. I don't think Aonuma is going to be able to call a Zelda game truly his own in his lifetime though.

 

[CrimsonCavalier]

I agree with @Spirit in that I don't think it was only Miyamoto's fault. I think the game was atrocious for a wide variety of reasons, and Miyamoto's despotism over the development team is only part of it. That said, it can't be guaranteed that the forced motion controls were Miyamoto's doing. Perhaps it was coming from even above him that Wii Motion + was to be used, no matter what, in the game.

I'm of the mind that Miyamoto is the best game creator/designer that has ever lived, or will ever live, but I'm also of the mind that his time has come. It is time for him to step down and let others work on the future of Nintendo's franchises. I can only imagine how difficult it would be for him, but for the good of all the series—not just Zelda—he needs to stop.

 

[AncientPoe]

Should probably point out the well-documented fact that Miyamoto only allowed Aonuma to make Majora's Mask after stipulating that he had to make the entire game in a single year. It's actually quite impressive that he was able to get it made in that development time. But when you think about it, it kinda seems like Miyamoto was setting him up to fail.

 

[Adventurer of Hyrule]

SS is my favorite game of all time, Aonuma the only person at Nintendo i truly respect. So we're good.

 

[Farore's Chosen]

We really don't know for sure and it takes more then one person to make a game, so the blame can't be put on any one person. SS did attempt ideas. They are hardly new however in terms of motion controls. I mean, the Power Glove was I think, the precursor and it failed spectacularly from what I hear. Other game companies have tried such things with hit or miss success over the years. SS is one of those games that failed. I don't struggle with it quite as much as I did when I first started but I and others still struggle enough to find it cumbersome. It failed miserably.

 

[Polychrome]

SS is my favorite game of all time, Aonuma the only person at Nintendo i truly respect. So we're good.

Yeah, I don't get the hate. It's one thing if you want to grump over motion controls or Fi taking too long to say something, but I thought Skyward Sword's lore was very fascinating. If anything, the story, characters, and lore were very well fleshed out, and the soundtrack was amazing. Funny thing is, this is one of the few games in the series where I found myself caring what happened to the title character. :/

 

[Dio]

Yeah, I don't get the hate. It's one thing if you want to grump over motion controls or Fi taking too long to say something, but I thought Skyward Sword's lore was very fascinating. If anything, the story, characters, and lore were very well fleshed out, and the soundtrack was amazing. Funny thing is, this is one of the few games in the series where I found myself caring what happened to the title character. :/

The lore was not fleshed out. It was contradictory and either did not deliver the answers promised or delivered them in an underwhelming way.

I've been playing these games for 18 years and I've played them a lot. If you know the stories of the games you will realise Skyward Sword contradicts a lot of the established lore and its story is poorer than many fanfictions.

I don't see how anyone can defend the game in terms of lore or gameplay unless they are new to Zelda. Just because the characters were likable or you care for them does not mean the lore is good. The lore is something within the Zelda series as a whole not just in one entry and if there is an entry that contradicts the established lore which fans love, then that entry is simply not very good.

This is not to mention the gameplay itself which is that of an 06 game, not a progression over Twilight princess but actually regressing in multiple areas. The fact that it released in 2011 whilst not keeping up with the times is another reason it gets hate.

 

[Adventurer of Hyrule]

lol the lore was contradictory... even on the internet, thats a first for me.

Gameplay wise SS is a masterpiece dude, variety, controls, depth, fluidity. Combat was multi layered and thanks to motion controls they acted like puzzles themselves, bosses took advantage of that and they felt more engaging than on previous games. Puzzles and items were also incredibly inspired, everything worked so well and had a purpose in and outside of dungeons (unlike in previous games) sprinting was awesome, controls were fast, platforming was precise and the level design supported it very well. Animations were better, writing was better, characters were better developed, humorous, memorable. I re-played TP after SS, and while i adore that game, gameplay wise it just feels like a heavy rock. Limited in range and motion, combat was shallow, wolf sections are still terrible (and think about it, TP came after Okami, so it had no business have such poor wolf controls) and items didn't kept its usefulness.

 

[Jamie]

Come on the game wasn't that bad guys.

Miyamoto is a goddamn legend and while I disagree with the oppressive nature discussed in this thread, I think you all are being very hard on him. It's difficult to let something go that you created yourself.

 

[the8thark]

SMG2 is it's own story. It's basically DLC that had too much content to be DLC so it became it's own game. In the same way the later Super Luigi U did.

Skyward Sword is Miyamoto and Aonuma's fault. The reason is simple. Two words.

Collective responsibility.

If you oversee a project this large, the whole team takes the blame is things go wrong. It's no good just passing the buck back and forth between the team. The buck has to stop somewhere and it does, with the entire team. If SS failed anywhere, it's the whole SS team's fault it failed. No one individually, just the entire tram as a whole. Of cause the entire teeam takes credit for things done well too.

 

[Spiritual Mask Salesman]

It was never a secret that Miyamoto had a more hand on approach with SS. I recall hearing that SS was made just because Miyamoto wanted a game were you could control Link's Sword with 1:1 motion.

I think the reason people feel there was a lack of groundbreaking innovation is because the motions controls were supposed to be what was innovative. People ended up hating them, despite hyping them before the game's release. Now, as more time passes, it seems like more distaste for SS has grown. (Probably due to the fact that we can argue that motions controls were just some sort of fad all along).

The game wasn't terrible in all aspects. I do think standing alone it's story was ok. I agree with others though, it's plot didn't deliever what a lot of fans were hoping. There were a lot of questions it didn't address that fans hoped for. A lot of people were also pissed that Ganondorf was pretty much explained by a hate curse from a villian that had like, what, 8 minutes of screen time while in his normal form.

 

[Lozjam]

Come on the game wasn't that bad guys.

Miyamoto is a goddamn legend and while I disagree with the oppressive nature discussed in this thread, I think you all are being very hard on him. It's difficult to let something go that you created yourself.

I agree, Skyward Sword was a fantastic game for the Wii. However, it has more problems than any other Zelda game. It actually takes away many of the conventions of Zelda in a bad way, for example, exploration.

We also cannot ignore that this is not a one time instance. Miyamoto is the person who stopped intelligent Systems from creating a Thousand Year Door sequel for 3DS. Furthermore, instead of telling a new story in Star Fox Zero, he decides to retell a story that has already been told twice(not counting remakes). This even had huge matters to games such as MG2, and this has likely also had impact on many other Nintendo games as well.

 

[Dio]

lol the lore was contradictory... even on the internet, thats a first for me.

Gameplay wise SS is a masterpiece dude, variety, controls, depth, fluidity. Combat was multi layered and thanks to motion controls they acted like puzzles themselves, bosses took advantage of that and they felt more engaging than on previous games. Puzzles and items were also incredibly inspired, everything worked so well and had a purpose in and outside of dungeons (unlike in previous games) sprinting was awesome, controls were fast, platforming was precise and the level design supported it very well. Animations were better, writing was better, characters were better developed, humorous, memorable. I re-played TP after SS, and while i adore that game, gameplay wise it just feels like a heavy rock. Limited in range and motion, combat was shallow, wolf sections are still terrible (and think about it, TP came after Okami, so it had no business have such poor wolf controls) and items didn't kept its usefulness.

Is that you JJ?

Have you actually played the other games in the series and payed attention to the stories apart from SS? Of course its contradictory. Its whole existence goes against what has been stated throughout the series. The ancient sages are cited to be the creators of the master sword yet Link himself is shown to forge it in SS.

Controls were flawed and combat consists of wrist waggling. Jimmy Fallon just flailed about and was able to defeat a stalfos in seconds which is supposed to be a miniboss. The motion elements were invasive and forced. In TP wii they were minimal and uninvasive. Not to mention throughout the entire game of SS players have to constantly recalibrate their remotes.

Overworld puzzles were forced in unnaturally and exploration was completely scrapped in favour of linear segments.

SS was a step backwards from TP and was made entirely so Miyamoto could get a Zelda out with
1:1 motion controls and even then it was not a success. No wonder story took a backseat and the proper prequel to OOT we were promised, delivered no explanations to anything meaningful and generally underwhelmed.