SecretNerd-sshh
Its a secret to everyone
- Joined
- Nov 8, 2011
- Location
- USA
VanitasXII, im really confused. While I wasnt talking about plot specifically, it sounded to me like you agree with me. Oh well...
Okay, explain to us how this series has not been following alttp's standard formula, just using new hardware gimmicks to maintain a fresh appearance. Id love to hear your opinion on the matter.
I would also like to point out the game was a lot shorter than I thought it would be... I finished it in under 35 hours, and I really stretched that out with side quests (Bugs, treasure, upgrades, all the heart pieces, etc...) And that was just sort of a letdown as word around the block was that it would be 50-100 hours. However, I really enjoyed all of the in-between dungeon missions. I thought those were original and innovative - and had they been combined with stellar dungeons this game would've been much better.
I don't know how to explain that, because I neither hold that opinion nor know how to support it. However, in the opinion that I do hold:
If you look at every single Zelda game (barring MM, PH and ST), it follows the same exact plot: peaceful beginnings, small plot twist to drive the plot, three dungeons, plot twist, more dungeons then final boss and happy (bittersweet) ending.
---
Every single Zelda game features the same exact characters: there is the Gary Stu [or Mario] (Link – he's perfect), the Peach (Zelda – she's always captured), and the Bad Guy [or Bowser](Ganondorf, Demise...you name it). I'll put it in simplest terms.
Good ol' Mario has a peaceful beginning, then something happens to Peach so as to make Mario go off and have to save her. What happens is Peach is either kidnapped by or vehemently pursued by Bowser. Eventually, Mario builds up enough power and an arsenal of weaponry and defeats Bowser, winning back his Peach and saving the Mushroom Kingdom.
Essentially what every single Zelda game is. Just translate Mario to Link, Peach to Zelda and Bowser to the villain of the game. Mushroom Kingdom is also the land (Hyrule, Holodrum, etc). There are no real plot twists in the Zelda series (except MM where it's chock full of them). The suspense dies down because we already know that Link IS GOING to win. Doesn't matter how much character development there is, because it's the same story. It has small little details that make people "theorize", but the story isn't even the focal point of Zelda! If you don't believe that, then explain to me why Zelda can never do anything on her own, why the bad guy NEVER wins, and why Link never once has died in combat? Just explain it to me.
Of course, the typical fan reaction to Link dying, the bad guy winning, or Zelda becoming a more physical person would be: "thankfully only a small percentage of the Zelda fanbase wants the kind of game you want". But I dare ask, why do you say thankfully when it is has never happened? I'm sure real plot twists like those would be more welcome than the typical hero story we get with every Zelda release. The gimmick we speak of in each new Zelda is just the new graphics, the different gameplay, different items and different scenery. Still just padding to divert the attention that the story is the exact same in every release.
Your getting it ALL wrong. The reason you finished it under 35 game hours is because of the main quest. What Miyamoto meant to say was for both modes. In totality, I have over 80 game hours.
Yes, it was an exaggeration and mostly a rant on my part; just mad that Nintendo constantly reuses some elements. I get that they ain't broke so why fix them, but some innovations could do a number for the better.
One of the biggest things I noticed you complained about was "lack of size". Yes, I agree, the areas were a lot smaller. However, I think you're looking at it too visually. I look at it by content. No, I'm not one of those people that think TP's overworld was empty, I found plenty of things to do. In fact, I first thought The Sky was small, but in the end, I compared the actual content and it seemed pretty equal with TP's Hyrule Field. I also noticed that one visit to one of SS's areas had much more content, if not the same amount, as going through another 3D Zelda's pre-dungeon stuff. The later visits for each area don't really feel weaker, and even if you think they do, then just look at OoT, WW, and TP. The pre-dungeon stuff for the later dungeons in those games were shorter than the previous dungeons.
To call the worlds of OoT and MM "vast" is an insult to the word. They may be great games, but they aren't vast by any stretch of the imagination. On the maps of WW and SS, Link barely registers as a speck. Now, that's vast. In this case, it's really different strokes for different folks. I loved the sea in WW and the fields of TP. My love of the sky in SS ends with the fight controls, however.
Also, I'd like to point out that there was never any more to do in Hyrule Field than in the sky. The size of the sky just makes that more noticeable. Hyrule Field isn't better than the sky, its just different. I never liked Hyrule Field that much because you could never get across it fast enough (except maybe in TP). I don't say OoT is less of a game because of it, just that I don't enjoy it as much as others do.
Okay, I must have been playing a different game then, because the dungeons I saw were the spark of charm and wit. In Skyview Temple, you have to cut through natural barriers (including webs that you had to shake out of), and there was a room that you had to figure out how to escape by going through a crack in the wall. The Earth Temple went all "Super Monkey Ball" on us and had real booby traps. Lanayru Mining Facility had time shift stones and sand traps. The Fire Sanctuary had indoor and outdoor "rooms" and had puzzles that required you to carry water on the tip of your sword. You could build an entire game around just one of these dungeons. Not only that, each room in each dungeon is unique. Its virtually impossible to get lost in a SS dungeon, because they are so well designed. Also, Nintendo finally gave us a reason to collect the maps. I didn't think that was possible.
Really, only TP had anything bigger than Skyloft. OoT and MM might have had a few more NPCs, but not much. Even so, SS is still far superior to them because the NPCs aren't just idiots who lose their chickens or guys who run the shooting gallery. The NPCs in SS fell like real people. I found myself finishing side-quests, not for the rewards (because they weren't all that great), but to see what would happen. With the golden skulltallas and admiral poes, I gave up because I stopped caring.
Only that's not how the plot of SS went down. You go through the first dungeon to find Zelda and she's not there. Don't worry, there's this other dungeon that she might be in, but she leaves and you can't follow for some reason. Okay, now let's go to the desert and hope in vain that you find her again. You do, but she has to go somewhere safe and you have other things you have to do, so you can't go. Where is this "plot twist" that you spoke of? I must not have been playing right, because I didn't get the plot twist until I was about two-third of the way into the game. Was I misbehaving and Nintendo decided to punish me?
No, that's your opinion. If that was a fact, why would it be getting very high scores and beating some of the highly anticipated games?I had mixed feelings about the game while playing through it, however I feel that one cannot entirely judge a game until they’ve completed it. I just finished this afternoon, and here’s my assertion: Skyward Sword is the worst 3D Zelda home console title.
No, you simply are rushing it. You should be taking it in, and not rushing to the finish. I am just going to ask. How many items do you have? Hearts? Pieces of Hearts? Bugs?Skyward Sword lacked a majestic over world full of things to do – sure, the sky was majestic enough, but it was entirely void of gameplay. Spotted islands – one of my issues with The Wind Waker - are nowhere near interesting enough to compete with the vast over worlds of Twilight Princess, Ocarina of Time, and Majora’s Mask. I was hoping for something of that style to emerge beneath the clouds – some sort of Hyrule or Termina Field, but unfortunately nothing of the sort emerged. I believe that this element is essential for Zelda games to succeed.
Well every first dungeon is quite easy; Take ALTTP for example. Literally about 45 minutes long. LA's first dungeon is about 30 minutes long, OoT's is about 1 hour, MM's is 1 hour-1:30, WW's first dungeon's is about 1:30 and TP is about 3 hours. Skywards Sword is inbetween, about 2 hours.The next issue I had with Skyward Sword was the dungeon design. Except for the Ancient Cistern and the Sandship, I felt that many of the dungeons were stereotypical Zelda dungeons that could’ve been designed by a 5th grader – they lacked many innovative elements that had been present in previous dungeons – and none of them were anywhere near as good as the Stone Tower Temple from Majora’s Mask or the Spirit Temple from Ocarina of Time – two of my favorite dungeons.
I had no trouble, it isn't that hard. Eh, just me. [break]You troll[/break]Another issue I had was the use of the harp. The Ocarina in both Ocarina of Time and Majora’s Mask was a musical instrument that I felt like I was playing. The harp was a joke. The sad thing is I have always wanted to play a harp in a Zelda game, and I was ecstatic when I learned the Harp was the musical instrument of Skyward Sword. Playing it is an unfortunate chore that I tried to avoid at all costs – like something out of Wii Music.
Are you kidding? There is A LOT in Skyloft. Upgrading weapons, mixing potions, buying from a merchant, seeing the future, a lot of NPC's to talk with and a lot more. Also, it is pretty much bigger than Clock Town, OoT Hyrule Castle and Windfall, and just smaller than TP CTThe next thing I felt this game lacked was a bustling metropolis. Ocarina of Time had Castle Town, Majora’s Mask had Clocktown, Wind Waker had Windfall Island, and Twilight Princess had Castle Town. All Skyward Sword has is Skyloft – a tiny city compared to the biggest ones in other games. I was hoping for a large city beneath the clouds, but no city was there to meet my wishes.
So what was so bad about the 2D games? The CD-i games were only licensed by Nintendo, Phillips made them. And there are flaws in all Zelda games, but I haven't encountered any in this game.Because Skyward Sword lacked so many different elements that make Zelda great, I have decided that it was the worst 3D title – not the worst in the series, but nowhere near the top.
Wait, so you are stating your opinion as a fact?This brings me to my next point – I just can’t see how people are calling this the best Zelda game when it is nowhere near as good as any other 3D Zelda title? Am I the only one who thinks that Skyward Sword was a disappointment? Or is everyone else jumping on the perfect score bandwagon?
No, that's your opinion. If that was a fact, why would it be getting very high scores and beating some of the highly anticipated games?
No, you simply are rushing it. You should be taking it in, and not rushing to the finish. I am just going to ask. How many items do you have? Hearts? Pieces of Hearts? Bugs?
Well every first dungeon is quite easy; Take ALTTP for example. Literally about 45 minutes long. LA's first dungeon is about 30 minutes long, OoT's is about 1 hour, MM's is 1 hour-1:30, WW's first dungeon's is about 1:30 and TP is about 3 hours. Skywards Sword is inbetween, about 2 hours.
Are you kidding? There is A LOT in Skyloft. Upgrading weapons, mixing potions, buying from a merchant, seeing the future, a lot of NPC's to talk with and a lot more. Also, it is pretty much bigger than Clock Town, OoT Hyrule Castle and Windfall, and just smaller than TP CT
So what was so bad about the 2D games? The CD-i games were only licensed by Nintendo, Phillips made them. And there are flaws in all Zelda games, but I haven't encountered any in this game.
Wait, so you are stating your opinion as a fact?
Mmmm, talk about arrogant.
JucieJ, I think you have my issue pretty well summed up. I set the bar far too high for Skyward Sword, so it's my own fault that I'm not loving it. However, I still disagree with you on the opinion/bias argument. I believe that a game is considered "great" if everyone has a high opinion of it. How else could greatness be determined other than the opinion of the masses? And you have to be biased somehow, bias only means that you have an opinion about something. Based on your arguments countering my arguments, It's pretty clear that you're biased towards Skyward Sword. Because you think that it's one of the finest Zelda games insinuates a certain level of bias. And when you talk about how good a game is, you are including some level of bias in your opinionated analysis. There is no way that one could describe how good a game is without including bias.
The next thing I felt this game lacked was a bustling metropolis. Ocarina of Time had Castle Town, Majora’s Mask had Clocktown, Wind Waker had Windfall Island, and Twilight Princess had Castle Town. All Skyward Sword has is Skyloft – a tiny city compared to the biggest ones in other games. I was hoping for a large city beneath the clouds, but no city was there to meet my wishes.
This brings me to my next point – I just can’t see how people are calling this the best Zelda game when it is nowhere near as good as any other 3D Zelda title? Am I the only one who thinks that Skyward Sword was a disappointment? Or is everyone else jumping on the perfect score bandwagon?
It lacks a majestic overworld-TRUE, but my problem is that there is allot to do(the puzzle elements which make up almost the entirety of the surface world) just not the things you might want to do.Skyward Sword lacked a majestic over world full of things to do
Stereotypical Zelda dungeons you said. We need some of that so that it is still Zelda. The majority were not stereotypical: Mining facility!Was incredibly well thought out. When have we ever had conveyor belts and missile firing floaty thingies and electricity?The next issue I had with Skyward Sword was the dungeon design.
Apparently, you need to read what a plot twist actually is, because that isn't it. Two things have to happen for there to be a plot twist:Three dungeons, Link has to power up his blade [plot twist], more dungeons, get dat golden power, fight final boss and happy ending. There you go, ALttP formula in a nutshell.
Never trust the gameplay hours they give you. I never did. I don't care if it takes 2 hours or 100 hours to finish a game as long as I enjoy it.You can't take a full length game, copy and paste it with some added restrictions, and then say your game is twice as long. Because it really isn't That's not 80 hours of new material. It's really only 35. Expectation management, Nintendo, expectation management...
Okay, I can understand why you have a bit of a problem there. Nintendo didn't play to your own expectations.Exactly, so when I read that Nintendo was going to change the dungeon pattern in the game, I thought they were going to change the 3 dungeons, plot twist, more dungeons, final boss. Which is why I was let down when I thought the dungeon pattern would be something completely new like in Majora' Mask.
Er...wasn't the fact that the surface wasn't inhabited important to the plot? Criticizing a game for a lack of NPCs seems rather cheap (especially when that is part of the PLOT). You know what other game doesn't have a lot of NPCs? "Portal"! Isn't that the best video game ever made? Its not what you have, its how you use it.I look at it by both - Majora's Mask was one of the smallest areas by size, but it completely made up for it in content. Every square inch of Termina had something to do. The same cannot be said about the world of Skyward Sword. It was vast, I'll give it that. But the world - above the clouds and below - lacked a solid number of people to interact with. Below the clouds, there were only monsters to kill, not people to help. And above the clouds, Skyloft had some characters - but no sidequests nearly as deep as the Anju and Kafei quest from Majora's Mask.
If you're going to mark a game down for not being original, you might want to start with MM. I'm just saying. In fact, why don't we mark down OoT, while we're at it? Maybe because that doesn't actually tell us anything about the game?Cutting through natural barriers was charming and witty? I found it to be a chore - nowhere near as good as grabbing a deku stick, running to a torch, and using that to destroy spider webs. The Earth Temple's only new addition was the Super Monkey Ball portion, but the fact that we're naming that action after another game shows that it's nothing revolutionary to gaming at all. I praised time shift stones in my earlier argument, for I believe those to be the greatest part of Skyward Sword. But sand traps - nothing new at all. And I have most definitely used water to solidify lava in a video game before. I found them to be the opposite of well designed compared to the list of dungeons that I described in an earlier argument.
Wait, a moment ago, weren't you complaining about SS being the same old thing? Now your complaining about it not being enough like TP? You can't have it both ways, kid.Ocarina of Time may have had a few more NPCs, but Majora's Mask had way more. So many that Skyward Sword should be embarrassed. What Nintendo did in two years between 1998 and 2000 was far more detailed than what Nintendo did in five between 2006 and 2011. I would've been a lot happier with Nintendo had they used the Twilight Princess engine and worked on building a detailed, intricate sequel to Twilight Princess instead of a game that felt less than half baked. And the NPCs are complete idiots in Skyward Sword - "Oh no, I lost my rattle and I haven't slept for three days, so I'm just going to stand here and shake my baby because that's really doing a lot instead of going out and trying to find a solution" - yeah, because that makes perfect sense.
Isn't the fact that you took the time to go 100% a point in the game's favor. I'm sure trying it, despite I never got 100% in OoT.If you would've taken the time to read everything I had written, I do discuss that I in fact collected all the heart pieces, all of the bugs, all of the items, all of the upgrades, and all of the gratitude crystals. I tried to extend my playtime as long as I could. Am I 100% complete with the game? Probably not. But to say that I was simply rushing it is an assertion that you cannot possibly back up with any evidence.
Funny, because Clocktown gave you exactly nothing to do, unless you like pointless sidequests with no incentive to complete them. Yeah...sign me up...-.-What do you mean am I kidding? Of course I'm not kidding. Skyloft was a joke! It was nowhere near as full of things to do as Clocktown was from Majora's Mask. In Skyloft, the Bazaar was the only building worth spending time in, the NPCs were flat and boring, and the sidequests to do didn't take long at all. And how can something be "pretty much bigger" than another thing? It's either bigger, or it's not. And in Skyloft's case. It's NOT bigger and NOT better than any other urban area in a Zelda game.
You stated several times that Skyward Sword was the worst 3D game in the series and did so as if it were a fact. When in fact, it's merely your opinion. And yes, it did come accross as arrogant. Since talking to you, I can see that you weren't being arrogant, it was merely your choice of words that made it appear so. However, don't insult users just for a mistaken interpretation of how you were acting, and don't let it get to you either.
Please research what bias actually means. As your definition is cloudy.
Opinions aren't necessarily biased. That paragraph seemed like a petty attempt to turn around JucieJ's argument on himself. Remember, you have every right to have your opinion respected as anyone else here does. You don't have to resort to things like that.
Apparently, you need to read what a plot twist actually is, because that isn't it. Two things have to happen for there to be a plot twist:
- Something previously unknown has be revealed.
- The basis of the plot changes afterwards.
Where is this completely unknown and shocking information we get after the third dungeon? The Imprisoned and/or the fact that we have to power up our sword? Maybe. But it definitely didn't change the direction of the plot. It was the same as before: find Zelda. After you do find Zelda, now that's a plot twist. We're given a lot of information that was completely unknown to us and came right out of left field, then our goal completely changed. You didn't have to find Zelda anymore, so now it's time to destroy Demise.
Never trust the gameplay hours they give you. I never did. I don't care if it takes 2 hours or 100 hours to finish a game as long as I enjoy it.
Er...wasn't the fact that the surface wasn't inhabited important to the plot? Criticizing a game for a lack of NPCs seems rather cheap (especially when that is part of the PLOT). You know what other game doesn't have a lot of NPCs? "Portal"! Isn't that the best video game ever made? Its not what you have, its how you use it.
If you're going to mark a game down for not being original, you might want to start with MM. I'm just saying. In fact, why don't we mark down OoT, while we're at it? Maybe because that doesn't actually tell us anything about the game?
I'm fully aware that SS rips off Harry Potter, Naruto, Indiana Jones, Shadow of the Colossus, Persona 4, No More Heroes, Prince of Persia, and probably a lot of other stuff I can't remember. That doesn't matter. What matters is that it does what it does well.
It isn't just the quality of each gimmick, but the vast number of them and how exclusive they are. Each area has it's own puzzles that don't repeat in other areas. That makes those timeshift stones you like even better, because they don't overstay their welcome. The worst thing you can do to an amazing gimmick is make it routine. Variety is the spice of life and routine is the starch.
Wait, a moment ago, weren't you complaining about SS being the same old thing? Now your complaining about it not being enough like TP? You can't have it both ways, kid.
Isn't the fact that you took the time to go 100% a point in the game's favor. I'm sure trying it, despite I never got 100% in OoT.
Funny, because Clocktown gave you exactly nothing to do, unless you like pointless sidequests with no incentive to complete them. Yeah...sign me up...-.-