Origin of the Song of Storms: Termina

[DeletedUser9]

Okay, so we all know about the Song of Storms. In Ocarina of Time you learn it as Adult Link by talking to Guru Guru (guy at the Windmill). He's angry because a kid came and played the song, ruining the windmill. He teaches you the song, and you go into the past to play it for him, revealing that you were the kid.

We realize this is a paradox. Somehow it's an infinite loop. The timeline of these events goes like this:

1. Link plays the Song of Storms to Guru Guru in the Past.
2. Guru Guru teaches Link the song in the Future after learning it from Link in the Past.
3. Link travels back to the Past, going back to 1.

This is an infinite loop. Unless it was an act of god that created this loop, something had to happen with time travel to start this loop in the first place. I believe it was the events of Majora's Mask where Link learns the Song of Storms from the Composer Brothers of Termina.

I think we can all agree that when Ocarina of Time first came out the timeline split was not intended. The fans made it up and Nintendo decided to use it in canon. If this is the case, then the timeline of Ocarina of Time goes something like this:

1. Link pulls the Master Sword, sleeping for 7 years until the Future.
2. Link goes through the game, traveling back and forth in time to change things.
3. Link defeats Ganondorf, saving the world IN THE FUTURE.
4. Zelda sends Link back in time, without messing up the other Link sleeping in the Temple of Time.
5. This Link that was sent back travels to Termina without messing up the timeline.

What I'm proposing is that the Song of Storms was composed by Termina's Sharp and Flat, and only comes from Termina. This means the timeline continues like this:

6. Link learns the Song of Storms.
7. After the events of Majora's Mask conclude, Link heads BACK to Hyrule.
8. Link teaches the Song of Storms to Guru Guru while his past self is still sleeping, starting the infinite loop.
9. Link wakes up and learns the Song of Storms from Guru Guru.
10. Link travels back to the past and teaches Guru Guru the song.
11. Link defeats Ganondorf and is sent back in time.
12. Link goes to Termina, REMEMBERS the Song of Storms instead of learning it for the first time (according the game's actual text), and does not go back to teach it to Guru Guru since he learned it from him in the first place.

This effectively stops the events that created the loop (Link from Termina teaching Guru Guru the song for the first time), but the song persists because of the time loop.

Sorry for the long explanation, but time travel stuff made it necessary. Thoughts? And did I mess up somewhere and have to reword something?

 

[Michael Heide]

We realize this is a paradox. Somehow it's an infinite loop. The timeline of these events goes like this:

1. Link plays the Song of Storms to Guru Guru in the Past.
2. Guru Guru teaches Link the song in the Future after learning it from Link in the Past.
3. Link travels back to the Past, going back to 1.

This is an infinite loop. Unless it was an act of god that created this loop, something had to happen with time travel to start this loop in the first place.

No. A closed-circle paradox like this has no start. That's what makes it a paradox in the first place.

I believe it was the events of Majora's Mask where Link learns the Song of Storms from the Composer Brothers of Termina.

No. He learns it from Guru Guru, in the windmill in OoT.

I think we can all agree that when Ocarina of Time first came out the timeline split was not intended. The fans made it up and Nintendo decided to use it in canon. If this is the case, then the timeline of Ocarina of Time goes something like this:

1. Link pulls the Master Sword, sleeping for 7 years until the Future.
2. Link goes through the game, traveling back and forth in time to change things.
3. Link defeats Ganondorf, saving the world IN THE FUTURE.
4. Zelda sends Link back in time, without messing up the other Link sleeping in the Temple of Time.

I'd say that she sends him back to before he pulled the sword out of the stone. There is only one Link.

5. This Link that was sent back travels to Termina without messing up the timeline.

What I'm proposing is that the Song of Storms was composed by Termina's Sharp and Flat, and only comes from Termina. This means the timeline continues like this:

6. Link learns the Song of Storms.
7. After the events of Majora's Mask conclude, Link heads BACK to Hyrule.
8. Link teaches the Song of Storms to Guru Guru while his past self is still sleeping, starting the infinite loop.

First of all, he has no motivation to teach Guru Guru that song. And secondly, Guru Guru already knows it.

9. Link wakes up and learns the Song of Storms from Guru Guru.

In a timeline that doesn't exist anymore.

10. Link travels back to the past and teaches Guru Guru the song.

I thought he already did that in step 8 of your theory?

11. Link defeats Ganondorf and is sent back in time.
12. Link goes to Termina, REMEMBERS the Song of Storms instead of learning it for the first time (according the game's actual text), and does not go back to teach it to Guru Guru since he learned it from him in the first place.

This doesn't add up.

Sorry for the long explanation, but time travel stuff made it necessary. Thoughts? And did I mess up somewhere and have to reword something?

While I like the theory, it just has too many holes. I think we have to live with the fact that this is a paradox.

 

[athenian200]

The main issue with your theory is this...

How would the first Link to reach Termina have gotten into the Bottom of the Well, if he had never gotten the Song of Storms?

The problem is that the first Link in this sequence would have had to go through his quest through Hyrule WITHOUT the Song of Storms, in order to reach the point where he goes to Termina. And if he could do that, then he would only be going back and teaching the song to make it easier for his past self... why would he do that?

Even if your theory is true, there is still a paradox similar to the one we get with the initial events.

 

[Din Akera]

The main issue with your theory is this...

How would the first Link to reach Termina have gotten into the Bottom of the Well, if he had never gotten the Song of Storms?

The problem is that the first Link in this sequence would have had to go through his quest through Hyrule WITHOUT the Song of Storms, in order to reach the point where he goes to Termina. And if he could do that, then he would only be going back and teaching the song to make it easier for his past self... why would he do that?

Even if your theory is true, there is still a paradox similar to the one we get with the initial events.

Athenian beat me too it. There is the real problem. The very first Link in OoT had to have the song of storms to defeat Ganondorf.
And the paradox still continues within the small initial circle, even though the rest continue on.

 

[pokemainiac]

How can this be a Paradox honestly? I never got it, what's wrong with someone telling someone in the future, so that they can tell the first person of it in the past?

 

[DuckNoises]

I agree very much with Athenian and Din about why that can't be, Axle.

I think we can all agree that when Ocarina of Time first came out the timeline split was not intended. The fans made it up and Nintendo decided to use it in canon.

I wouldn't say this is entirely true; Nintendo certainly acknowledged and realized that the events of Ocarina of Time would cause an alternate reality wherein Link could stop Ganondorf before he could execute his plan, whether Nintendo intended or not to make a game following these events at that time is present in the creation of Majora's Mask itself, as it clearly takes place after Link has gone back in time, creating the reality where Hyrule would attempt to stop Ganondorf. The notion of a timeline may or may not have existed, but I'm fairly certain that Nintendo acknowledged that they had created a second reality to Ocarina of Time, simply because of the inclusion of the ending. Why would they include that ending if they didn't want it to be a crucial part of the game's story?

4. Zelda sends Link back in time, without messing up the other Link sleeping in the Temple of Time.
5. This Link that was sent back travels to Termina without messing up the timeline.

I'm afraid that this can't be the case, if I've read that correctly. The notion of multiple Links was disproven by the ending of OoT, where Link returns to the courtyard where he first meets Zelda, who is spying on Ganondorf as he Ganondorf proposes a peace treaty with the King. He was not transported to right before he retrieved the Master Sword and opened the door of time, because that (brief) meeting with Zelda occurs as you enter Castle Town after beating the 3rd dungeon, not in the castle courtyard. This way, the time paradox where one Link is still in the Sacred Realm when the other one returns to before the Master Sword was retrieved does not apply; more importantly, how could the second Link pull out the Master Sword if it had already been pulled out by the first Link who currently has it in the Sacred Realm? This portion of your theory isn't really applicable.

More importantly, if Link went back in time and saved the past, why would he need the Lens of Truth from Beneath the Well if he no longer needed to cross the Haunted Wasteland or go through the Shadow Temple? If Ganondorf had been stopped (or at least they had attempted to stop him, as shown in Arbiter's Grounds in TP), Link would not need to obtain these items because he doesn't need to awaken the Sages. Therefore he wouldn't have to go through the entire dialogue with Guru Guru that he refers to in the future, because that is only necessary for him to enter the Well.

However, I think that the controversy surrounding the Song of Storms was either intended to be ridiculous and nonsensical, or merely because of the fact that it would be impossible to figure out how to drain the well if he never told you about the Song in the Future. If he never told you in the future, the player would probably never even know of the function (or possibly even the existence) of the Song of Storms as an Ocarina melody. They might be able to draw the conclusion that there was a melody-related secret surrounding Guru Guru and the song he's trying to compose, but they would not know what end it served. It would have been overly cryptic, and Nintendo wouldn't have included it in the game for that reason. They made the decision that there has to be an occasional suspension of disbelief for the purpose of gameplay functions, even at the expense of common sense. People would have probably complained more about getting into the Well than the complaining that already exists because it doesn't make much sense.

 

[Michael Heide]

How can this be a Paradox honestly? I never got it, what's wrong with someone telling someone in the future, so that they can tell the first person of it in the past?

Who wrote the song? Who was the composer? It wasn't Link, he learned the song from Guru Guru. It wasn't Guru Guru, he learned the song from Link. But who wrote it?

 

[Majora's Cat]

I like your theory and all... but I agree with the others. There are quite a few gaping holes in your theory that prevent it from being a paradox.

But alas, DuckNoises, Dinny and Athenian have said everything I was going to. I'd still like to make my own points about your theory, though.

It's already a well known fact that Link taught the song to Guru Guru and the looping begins. I love how you tried to find out where the song comes from because there's no real explanation. I'm still having trouble believing in your alternate Links theory... the loop includes one Link only. I couldn't imagine how another Link should still be sleeping in the Temple of Time. I think that you're saying that the Link in the Temple of Time is stuck in the past, even with the progression of events around him. Still that's not the case.

I actually really like your alternate timeline theory. It is possible that Link learned the Song of Storms in Termina in the child timeline after beating Ganondorf as an adult. But the problem I see here is this: Majora's Mask specifically states that Link had already become a hero and had previously defeated Ganondorf. MM cannot occur during the events of Ocarina of Time. If Majora's Mask did occur during Ocarina of Time... there would be a problem. That means that Link travels to Termina as a child while Ganondorf was still on the loose. If so, then what was the point of OoT?

That last question brings me to my next point. I believe Ganondorf's defeat transcends time. For no apparent reason, it has to be that way. Nintendo made it that way, and what they say is practically law in the world of Zelda Theorizing. That being said, there's no way that Link can learn the Song of Storms in Termina and then return to Hyrule.

And like Athenian said, Link requires the Song of Storms to gain passage to the that Composer Brother's cave, so the idea of earning the Song of Storms in Majora's Mask is redundant.

Overall I still liked your theory. It's pretty cool and I can see lots of thought was put into it. There are many holes in it, but otherwise it's quite a good theory. ^^

 

[Sonicbowling]

I just noticed that today during my current play through of OoT. But I agree with the others that it was probably a mistake by the game designers or the they had the future guru-guru teach you it so you knew how to drain the well.

 

[Locke]

Somehow the forum was suddenly active for a day and lots of people beat me to good responses, but I'd like to stress a few things.

This is an infinite loop. Unless it was an act of god that created this loop, something had to happen with time travel to start this loop in the first place.

This is a contradiction. Infinite = no beginning. You can trace the chain back as far as you want and you will never find out who composed the song.

I think we can all agree that when Ocarina of Time first came out the timeline split was not intended. The fans made it up and Nintendo decided to use it in canon.

The split certainly existed at OoT's release. Link getting sent back in time is enough to create a split. MM confirmed this further by showing that timelines are not identical (in one he pulls the MS, in the other he goes to Termina). If the second timeline somehow replaced the first, then OoT had a terrible ending, showing that the whole thing could have been avoided using the OoT in the first place. If Link was sent back to the same timeline as his asleep self, then Zelda wouldn't have sent him back to make up the childhood he lost, but to suffer under Ganondorf's rule.

6. Link learns the Song of Storms.

If this is the same Link that got sent back in time after defeating Ganondorf, then he already knows it.

10. Link travels back to the past and teaches Guru Guru the song.

MM Link already did this. (according to your theory)

In summary, while it's an interesting idea, adding Flat to the paradox and assuming there was no split only adds Link re-learning the song and re-teaching it to Guru Guru in each iteration, and doesn't resolve the paradox at all, but makes it more complicated and implausible.

Also think about Epona's song. Both Romani and Malon know it. It's likely that Flat and Guru Guru/Link all happened to know the same song as well.

 

[Master Sword13]

I got lost halfway through the timeline, and I just got even more lost while reading the comments. Huh, I'm so lost I could be a Skull Kid.

 

[gneithamer1]

The Song of Storms.

Ok. We all know we learn the Song of Storms as an adult in OoT from Guru-Guru in the windmill. But when he speaks of the song, he says that he learned it from a boy in green that came and played the song and messed up the windmill. We know that this is you from seven years in the past when you had to play it to drain the well. So where did the song originate? If you think about it, you are learning the song from yourself, and there is no composer since you have to learn the song as an adult before you go back in time to drain the well. Paradox anyone?

 

[Djinn]

The problem is with OoT there are a few paradoxes like this one that pops up. Fortunately with the sequels Wind Waker and Twilight Princess we have learned that there are now two separate timelines which essentially means two separate Hyrules parallel to each other. Plus Majoras Mask tells us that the composer Bros actually wrote the song.

"Sharp sold his soul to the devil and was the one who locked me in here... You who do not fear the dead, learn well the song that is inscribed behind me... And if you ever meet my brother, I'd like you to inform him... The thousand years of raindrops summoned by my song are my tears. The thunder that strikes the earth is my anger!"

How Link or the man in the village originally learned could be anyone's guess. I assume it was not considered important enough for the developers to give much attention to since as I mentioned earlier OoT did create a lot of paradoxes that are harder to explain.

 

[Locke]

Technically, Link 'composed' the song, as he was the first chronologically to play it. Flat composed it in parallel in Termina, probably just for gameplay reasons.

 

[ConsoleGamesFTW]

Well, even though the composer brothers may have composed the song of storms in MM, that was another dimension so many other things could have happened in OOT. Isn't the song playing when you enter the windmill as a kid (before the man inside learns the song).