• Welcome to ZD Forums! You must create an account and log in to see and participate in the Shoutbox chat on this main index page.

Gravity

Batman

Not all those who wander are lost...
Joined
Oct 8, 2011
Location
40 lights off the Galactic Rim
Gender
Dan-kin
I made this post in response to a debate I saw in the shoutbox earlier today. The debate centered on the nature of gravity and ‘how we know what gravity is’. I thought I’d share a very brief and straightforward explanation of what we currently know about gravity. To start off, I’ll give you my credentials: I have a M.S. in Applied Particle Physics from Cal Tech and am currently pursuing my PhD in Quantum Cosmology. Again, I’ll make this accessible to everyone; no technical stuff here.

First of all, what is gravity? Isaac Newton is famous for formulating his three laws of gravitation but is often mistakenly credited with unlocking the secrets of gravity. What Newton did was unlock the secrets of the “effects” of gravity. Gravity, no matter what it is, has a measurable effect on the universe. Newton figured out how gravity behaves in the universe (by uncovering its mathematical secrets); he did not figure out what gravity is. An understanding of what gravity is; an understanding of what is causing these attractive force effects that we see in the universe, wouldn’t be understood until much later; all thanks to the work Albert Einstein. Albert Einstein’s theory (now a law) of General Relativity is perhaps the greatest scientific breakthrough in human history. Einstein created a framework that finally explained what gravity is. “General relativity” is a geometric framework that explains gravity to a degree that Newton could have only dreamed, and has been with us since 1915. Einstein theorized that gravity was in fact not some mystical force that “pulled” things in attraction (in a proportion to the relative masses of the bodies involved). Gravity was in fact a force, but one that was generated by a unique phenomenon. Einstein discovered that gravity is just the byproduct (the cause of an effect) generated by the warping of space-time. We all know what space is: it’s the 3-dimensional plane in which all things exist. And we all know what time is: it’s the dimension in which the change of the states of objects occurs. Einstein figured out that in fact, the 3 dimensions of space and the one of time are actually part of the same fabric called “space-time”. Everything in the universe can be determined by 4 coordinates; length, width, depth, and time.

So, this fabric of space-time becomes warped (stretched and molded) in the presence of mass (see the pic below). Anything with mass warps the 3 dimensions of space it occupies. This warping of the space is what we call gravity. Objects with mass get “pulled together” because the space between them has been bent in a way that brings them closer together. So here on Earth, it’s incorrect to think that the Earth’s gravity is pulling us to the ground. It’s more correct to say that the Earth’s mass has warped the space around it so much, that we puny humans are being “pushed toward it”. Same goes for everything else in the universe. The Earth is not being pulled toward the sun; the sun’s gravity has warped the space around Earth so much that our planet is being pushed toward it. The fact that we don’t just plunge into the sun is because our planet is moving through space really really fast. The angular momentum of our earth is just enough to resist being pulled completely into the sun. Think of a spinning a ball on a string that you are slinging over your head. Earth’s gravity can’t pull the ball down to the ground because the speed at which you are slinging the ball creates an angular momentum that is greater than the gravitational influence of the Earth.

Not only does gravity warp space though. Remember that space and time are in fact one physical fabric called space-time. So in fact, when mass is present, space AND time gets warped! That means that the larger the gravitational impact, the more of an effect it has on the duration of time. Thus where there is less gravity, time beats faster. Where there is a lot of gravity, time beats slower. In effect, when you are standing next to a mountain, the mountain’s gravity has warped space-time around you and means that time is beating slower for you relative to someone on the ocean. Granted, the difference is extremely extremely small on the scale of things here on Earth. But in more extreme situations in the universe (near a star or a black hole for instance) it can have an amazing effect.

You may ask the question, “what about mass causes space-time to warp?” and that is a really good question. This is where science’s knowledge about gravity gets theoretical. We think that space-time is warped in the presence of mass because of the “graviton”. The graviton is a theorized subatomic force-carrying particle (like the photon for light). It is produced in the presence of mass. Mass generates the graviton which warps the space around the mass that produced it.

So, what does this all mean? It means that the effects of gravity (i.e. the warping of space-time in the presence of mass) is a law of nature. It’s in every since of the word a “fact”. We know that thanks to the theories of Isaac Newton and Albert Einstein (and just simple observation), and the literally thousands of experiments that have been conducted over the last few hundred years to prove their validity.

But it also means that the exact “nature” of gravity (what it is at the fundamental level) is still not fully understood. Thanks to over a hundred years of particle experiments peering into the laws of quantum mechanics, we understand the basic building blocks to all things baryonic in the universe. This model, called the “standard model” has outlasted every test ever thrown at it, and if it is correct, then the “graviton” must exist; even though we haven’t found it yet. But still…physicists aren’t comfortable until we get convincing direct or indirect observational evidence of its existence. So in this matter, the fundamental nature of gravity is still theoretical. But the effects and geometry of gravitational phenomena is well understood and has been “proven”. Proven in the sense that all experiments conducted have been in accordance with the theoretical frameworks to such an enormous degree, that we can take it to the bank. And proven in the sense that we can directly and indirectly observe the effects of an attractive force…the one we call gravity.

I'll be happy to answer any questions you may have.

spacetime_curvature2.png


ExpGrav-03a.gif
 

Curmudgeon

default setting: sarcastic prick
Joined
Dec 17, 2012
Gender
grumpy
This is why I largely keep my mouth shut about science. One never knows when there will be a nebulous figure in the shadows holding an advanced degree in particle physics. This is a wonderfully concise and informative write up.

As an aside, I'm thankful for persons like Batman and my wife who earn advanced degrees in an applicable field that have the potential to forward human knowledge so I can chase after one in a completely frivolous field.

I tip my hat to you, sir.
 
Last edited:

Batman

Not all those who wander are lost...
Joined
Oct 8, 2011
Location
40 lights off the Galactic Rim
Gender
Dan-kin
Zorth said:
Gravitational singularity; explain!

A gravitational singularity is a region of space-time where gravitational influence is so strong that it renders an “infinite” value. Gravitational singularities are black holes. When a supermassive star collapses in on itself, it contracts down to an infinitely dense “point”. This point is called the singularity, and it’s gravitational influence is incredible. We still aren’t too sure what the “singularity” even is. In all likelihood it’s more than just some infinitely small point that packs a powerful gravitational punch. That’s what the math tells us, but I wouldn’t be too surprised if the physical reality behind it is much more than what the math tells us. More than likely, quantum mechanics will shed light on this mystery someday.

Agent Spaghetti said:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/30/op...as30.html?_r=0

CERN has said to not jump to any immediate conclusions as they're still running more experiments and looking for flaws, but this is intriquing. I'm just wondering what you have to say.

This caused quite a stir in the scientific community a while back. CERN discovered neutrinos traveling faster than the speed of light and if it had been confirmed, the entire scientific community would have been turned on its head. Fortunately, several follow-up experiments (from many different teams) failed to come up with a similar result; alluding to the likelihood that there was something seriously wrong with the experiment that found these shocking results. Since the original OPERA experiment (well over a year ago), CERN discovered the problem. They eventually found the problem with the original experiment and you can find out what it was in the stuff I have posted below. So, all's good. Einstein is still the king of physics :P His laws are still holding up strong. However, for a little while, physicists across the world were holding their breath. We were nervous and excited at the same time.

Once Again, Physicists Debunk Faster-Than-Light Neutrinos - ScienceInsider

Faster-than-light neutrino anomaly - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://arxiv.org/pdf/1109.4897v4.pdf
 
Last edited:

Kylo Ken

I will finish what Spyro started
Joined
Aug 10, 2011
Location
Ohio
Terribly sorry, but I don't buy this. Very interesting theory, though. But I'm thinking, whats a smart guy like you doing on a video game fan website?
 

Batman

Not all those who wander are lost...
Joined
Oct 8, 2011
Location
40 lights off the Galactic Rim
Gender
Dan-kin
ampcle95 said:
Terribly sorry, but I don't buy this. Very interesting theory, though. But I'm thinking, whats a smart guy like you doing on a video game fan website?

Well, I can provide you will a lot of evidence in support of what I wrote. Evidence compiled over hundreds of years from the time of Newton to the modern day. But I assume you’re the kind of guy that will probably refuse to accept things regardless of evidence in support of them; if it doesn’t conform to your personal ideas. If that assumption is wrong, I apologize.

And what’s a smart guy like me doing on a gaming site? Well, quite simply because I enjoy video games like millions of other people in the world.

Sir Quaffler said:
I've got a question Batman. Have physicists made any headway on the Grand Unifying Theory that unites gravity with the other three elemental forces? I remember reading about this a long time ago, but I'm unaware if any significant progress has been made on it.

This is a great question and the answer is very short. No. lol

The GUT is still a work in progress and we haven’t made any substantial breakthroughs in a while. Are you familiar with the two competing models? Quantum Loop Gravity and String Theory? If not, I’d be happy to explain them to you.
 

Zorth

#Scoundrel
Joined
Apr 22, 2011
A gravitational singularity is a region of space-time where gravitational influence is so strong that it renders an “infinite” value. Gravitational singularities are black holes. When a supermassive star collapses in on itself, it contracts down to an infinitely dense “point”. This point is called the singularity, and it’s gravitational influence is incredible. We still aren’t too sure what the “singularity” even is. In all likelihood it’s more than just some infinitely small point that packs a powerful gravitational punch. That’s what the math tells us, but I wouldn’t be too surprised if the physical reality behind it is much more than what the math tells us. More than likely, quantum mechanics will shed light on this mystery someday.

The thing that boggles my mind is how something can have an infinite value, are our calculations maybe not yet enough advanced for this sort of thing or does there actually exist such a thing that has an infinite amount of something?
 

Batman

Not all those who wander are lost...
Joined
Oct 8, 2011
Location
40 lights off the Galactic Rim
Gender
Dan-kin
The thing that boggles my mind is how something can have an infinite value, are our calculations maybe not yet enough advanced for this sort of thing or does there actually exist such a thing that has an infinite amount of something?


Yeah, it's certainly mind-boggling. To answer your question, it has an infinite value because that is what Einstein's equations say it must be. We know that supermassive stars collapse in on themselves at the end of their fusion cycle. When a star has run out of fuel, it can no longer produce outward energy to keep the star's "atmosphere" from being pulled to the core (because of the core's immense gravity). When this happens, the star fuses heavier and heavier elements until the fusion process can go no further. But even when this happens, these stars have so much gravity to their name that stuff continues to get smashed into the core. If a star is big enough (and as a result has enough gravity) it will continue to collapse in on itself until there is literally nothing left but a "point". According to Einstein's equations, such a point would have to be infinitely small and infinitely dense; so dense that its gravitational effect is enormous (aka a black hole). We know that these things exist because we have seen them (more correctly, we have seen their effects on nearby matter).

Einstein's equations say that the singularity must be infinite. But in the end, Einstein's equations are not equipped to deal with things of that magnitude. That belongs to Quantum Mechanics; a field of physics that deals with the subatomic world. So, Einstein's equations give us an infinity probably because they cannot mathematically handle (are not built for) such strange and small anomolies. They work fine up to that point, but then they go crazy and give us an infinite value. Einstein's work deals with the macroscopic universe and deals with things like fusion, gravity, mass, energy, time, space, etc. The equations of quantum mechanics deal with the subatomic world. The world of protons, neutrons, electrons, quarks, neutrinos, superstrings, etc. If one field is going to resolve the infinities that Einstein's equations give us regarding gravitational singularities, it's probably going to be quantum mechanics. So, the physical reality behind a gravitational singularity is "probably" quite different than what Einstein's equations tell us. But for now, we are still in the dark. I hope that answers your question.
 

Sir Quaffler

May we meet again
This is a great question and the answer is very short. No. lol

The GUT is still a work in progress and we haven’t made any substantial breakthroughs in a while. Are you familiar with the two competing models? Quantum Loop Gravity and String Theory? If not, I’d be happy to explain them to you.

Yes I'm familiar with the two, and if you ask me Quantum Loop Gravity seems more sound. But seeming as how they're both still theories and no solid proof has come along I could be wrong. Quantum physics is extremely fascinating, and though I'm not going to be working in that particular field (I'm getting a Bachelor's in Mechanical Engineering Technology) I still like to keep myself informed on it.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Top Bottom