Forum Merger Discussion/Suggestions

[Emma]

Can people who don't play mafia please stop trying to say where it should be located or if it should exist? With Mafia activity having died lately the last thing we need is for it to be a subforum under forum games. And I think the roleplay community would also be very offended by you calling roleplay a "game".

I can understand that. It brings up a good point we should all think about. Areas of the forum that are deeply important to some people are not going to mean much to others. We need to be more aware that we're not all going to have the exact same priorities and we need to be more conscious of how not personally being interested in something doesn't mean it's not worth it to someone else. I should have put more thought into what I said about those two sections. And you're right about the activity. It's the same I feel for science and tech. Just because it's slow now doesn't mean it doesn't have a place or that it can't be reinvigorated.

 

[Nathanial Rumphol-Janc]

As I said before, scrolling isn't an issue if you use subforums.


Still iffy on the other Zelda sections, but future Zelda itself would streamline a lot of stuff that would make announcements and such less jarring.


First of all, never, EVER compare a giant to a dwarf. What works, or doesn't, for something massive and firmly established as Wikipedia is absolutely meaningless to something smaller. It's like saying that all a small corner shop in a small town needs to do to be successful is buy in bulk from asian sweatshops like Walmart does. It won't work. It's two completely different universes so don't compare them.

The point of the comparison to Wikipedia is that forums aren't essential. I further emphasized this point by bringing up a much more comparable situation to that of ZD Wiki in talking about ZI's wiki (both our old and newer one). Of course you're going to counter with "well this place has a board, that place has a board" yada yada. That's fine. But before they had boards, they had a Wiki, and before they expanded the Wiki to boards, the Wiki already had an extremely active userbase. Are you catching my drift there? Forums were born out of the activity level of the wiki warranting the need for boards to more easily discuss wiki matters. They didn't use the boards to build the Wiki. It was entirely the other way around. Zelda Wiki, among others, are just more evidence that forums are not the only way to build a wiki. Those that have active forums genreally had a successful wiki first.

You have this obsession with forums interlinked to Wiki and I get it. You see it at these other places and you keep thinking "that's what we should do" - but you're forgetting how those boards were formed in the first place and what their purpose was at that time. Most people that use bulbapedia's forums are wiki editors. Why? Because the boards were created to support the wiki editors. It wasn't like you're trying to do here - take an existing forum community and strong arm it into the wiki. You need to look into how to successfully build reach for a wiki and gain users outside of forums before you worry about forums themselves.

That's just my take here. Having launched my own successful wiki project absent forums, and then having another slowly get off the ground at ZI, I am well aware that forums are a non essential cog until you have an activity level and enough users on the wiki where the form of communication they offer is much easier than the talk pages. I'm not at all saying you shouldn't use the forums - there is a link to the wiki already right here. I am mostly saying that forums work the other way around at wikis. They exist because the wiki is so active it's more convenient, they don't exist to get a wiki going.

I have a lot on my plate at ZI, but if Mases ever wants to bring me on as a consultant to helping ZD's wiki explode in views and users, I am all the more willing to do it. But that's not what I'm "paid to do", and as much as I love helping with various projects, I do have a paid job I need to do first, plus a family. So it's hard for me to sacrifice the time at almost 30 with 3 kids and a full time job at ZI to help explain to you how to grow the wiki more organically instead of simply looking internally. Of course this is totally off topic. I suggest opening a more wiki centered thread to talk this over further.

And once again you're thinking way, WAY too much in the terms of how you want to see our network. How you wish to think of it. No one that I can see is disagreeing with how you want to look at things. Everyone I can see that even acknowledged it thinks it's a fantastic way to see things. But what you're not understanding is that your view is not everyone else's view. When they see the wiki as it is now, they're going to see nothing, it's dead. And if we move the front page responsibilities to Zelda Informer and move the forum there too, there will be NOTHING but the Wiki activity visible to the public on the Zelda Dungeon domain. Did you not just get done telling us over and over that people seeing dead sections will discourage them from participating in a forum? The exact same logic applies here.

No, it doesn't. Because you're forgetting the entire reason wikis exist. It's not to drive user editing things. It's not to even retain viewership perse. Wikis are purely informational. Sure, you want to encourage edits in areas that need it for sure, but Wiki's aren't like forums. They aren't predicated on that sort of stuff. They are predicated on where they rank in google search rankings and then once you are ranked, how useful that information is when someone searches for it. it's just like the walkthroughs at ZD. Once a guide is done, it's not relooked at or constantly edited. It's just there for people to use. That's what Wikis are for, with the encouragement that if they go to a page that's incomplete, they help complete it. Obvious through all this you can and should foster a nice community, but you can't force it. You cannot compare a wiki and a forum like you did by referencing what I said. They are not the same thing.

And as for other promotion, that is not going to work if all anyone sees is a dead site. They won't care what your higher ideals of togetherness are, however insightful and useful they are, they'll mean nothing. So we can do a billion different promotions, but the usefulness of the additions will be limited. Will it be a deathnail to the wiki? No, of course not, don't be absurd. It'll be enough to sustain it indefinitely. But it will not be enough for it to thrive, to truly exceed Zelda Wiki. It just can't do that without a community of its own. Even if that community is part of a larger whole, it does have to have its own organization and its own autonomy.

As one of the founding sites and main players behind Zelda Wiki before it ever mattered and anyone knew it existed beyond a small group of people, forums were almost a non factor entirely when it started from ground zero. It grew in large part because many Zelda sites decided to partner up and fee dtheir fans into it. They heavily promoted it. Today, the two largest Zelda sites in the entire world - far larger than all those small sites combined back in the day, can now feed their fan bases into a single wiki. It can be done.

Anyways, that's the last bit I am talking about the wiki in this thread. It's not really what this thread is about or for in the first place. I shouldn't really even be promoting this convo here.

Uhm, except no. On ZI terms, maybe. But not for ZD which has more forum activity. AND which also has a habit of merging section after section into world of Zelda. Topics being pushed to page two after a few days does not mean that overall activity has skyrocketed. As I've explained several times, all it means was that everything was dumped into one bucket to make it look like it was bigger even though in reality it's not. It's a parlor trick, a slight of hand. It looks impressive, but long term it's meaningless and unsustainable.

Not sure why you're repeating yourself. My solution counters all of your concerns really. Everything isn't dumped into a single board. No use repeating, I know you can read.

Trial and error? There has to be some kind of reasonable middle ground between no subsections whatsoever to subsections of subsections of subsections. That way we can condense and streamline things a bit without losing substance. We let it play out for a while and if one particular section doesn't work, then we deal with it as it happens. But some sections I think are too important to get rid of even if they dip in activity. Like all the general sections. And the FAQs section (as a rule that's there for reference and not activity anyway).

Never really said subsections can't exist. But you want to make the experience as fluid as possible. Take the tech and science boards. Moving them to a subsection of general doesn't help them, nor does it change the fact that people just aren't that interested int alking about that stuff save once in awhile, and once in awhile fits just fine in the overarching scheme of what a general board covers in the first place. Mafia is obvious a different beast. I don't mind it existing if we plan to use it. But when our Pokemon League died out we moved the boards to an archived format, noting if interest peaked again we would start the boards fresh so it's a fresh start not cluttered with years gone by. Worked really well. But again, I am fine with them as is, just want us to start using them. It's been months, is anything going to turn it around?

This forum becoming the ZI forum won't really compromise the Wiki. Mases concept will help out the wiki. If there are links to it on the forum still, links in this sites' guides, links on ZI frontpage, it isn't like the wiki gets pushed aside.

Essentially. Wiki minor promotion at ZI has already begun. Nothing huge beyond SEO helping. But, once I formulate a more long term plan for ZI promoting the wiki with Mases, it's going to explode. That and, forum merging really has nothing to do with hurting the wiki anyways. If anything, it draws a second communities' attention to it.

Can people who don't play mafia please stop trying to say where it should be located or if it should exist? With Mafia activity having died lately the last thing we need is for it to be a subforum under forum games. And I think the roleplay community would also be very offended by you calling roleplay a "game".

As I said, I am just talking about active versus dead boards. Not really what should happen to Mafia in general. As someone "brand new to this community" here is what I get the impression of looking at the Mafia board - NO ONE PLAYS IT. So when someone says "people who don't play mafia stop trying to say x" - no one is playing Mafia right no. No one. So...

Doesn't mean it can't be revived. but it can't just sit dead either. There should be a nice plan in place to revive it or move it, or scrap it. Etc. Maybe even replace it with Mafia 2.0, etc. Just food for thought. Keep in mind that I have no power to change things here. As I said, everything is staying as is as far as I am aware. I am just opening discussing possibilities.

 

[Emma]

The point of the comparison to Wikipedia is that forums aren't essential. I further emphasized this point by bringing up a much more comparable situation to that of ZD Wiki in talking about ZI's wiki (both our old and newer one). Of course you're going to counter with "well this place has a board, that place has a board" yada yada. That's fine. But before they had boards, they had a Wiki, and before they expanded the Wiki to boards, the Wiki already had an extremely active userbase. Are you catching my drift there? Forums were born out of the activity level of the wiki warranting the need for boards to more easily discuss wiki matters. They didn't use the boards to build the Wiki. It was entirely the other way around. Zelda Wiki, among others, are just more evidence that forums are not the only way to build a wiki. Those that have active forums genreally had a successful wiki first.

You have this obsession with forums interlinked to Wiki and I get it. You see it at these other places and you keep thinking "that's what we should do" - but you're forgetting how those boards were formed in the first place and what their purpose was at that time. Most people that use bulbapedia's forums are wiki editors. Why? Because the boards were created to support the wiki editors. It wasn't like you're trying to do here - take an existing forum community and strong arm it into the wiki. You need to look into how to successfully build reach for a wiki and gain users outside of forums before you worry about forums themselves.

That's just my take here. Having launched my own successful wiki project absent forums, and then having another slowly get off the ground at ZI, I am well aware that forums are a non essential cog until you have an activity level and enough users on the wiki where the form of communication they offer is much easier than the talk pages. I'm not at all saying you shouldn't use the forums - there is a link to the wiki already right here. I am mostly saying that forums work the other way around at wikis. They exist because the wiki is so active it's more convenient, they don't exist to get a wiki going.

I have a lot on my plate at ZI, but if Mases ever wants to bring me on as a consultant to helping ZD's wiki explode in views and users, I am all the more willing to do it. But that's not what I'm "paid to do", and as much as I love helping with various projects, I do have a paid job I need to do first, plus a family. So it's hard for me to sacrifice the time at almost 30 with 3 kids and a full time job at ZI to help explain to you how to grow the wiki more organically instead of simply looking internally. Of course this is totally off topic. I suggest opening a more wiki centered thread to talk this over further.



No, it doesn't. Because you're forgetting the entire reason wikis exist. It's not to drive user editing things. It's not to even retain viewership perse. Wikis are purely informational. Sure, you want to encourage edits in areas that need it for sure, but Wiki's aren't like forums. They aren't predicated on that sort of stuff. They are predicated on where they rank in google search rankings and then once you are ranked, how useful that information is when someone searches for it. it's just like the walkthroughs at ZD. Once a guide is done, it's not relooked at or constantly edited. It's just there for people to use. That's what Wikis are for, with the encouragement that if they go to a page that's incomplete, they help complete it. Obvious through all this you can and should foster a nice community, but you can't force it. You cannot compare a wiki and a forum like you did by referencing what I said. They are not the same thing.



As one of the founding sites and main players behind Zelda Wiki before it ever mattered and anyone knew it existed beyond a small group of people, forums were almost a non factor entirely when it started from ground zero. It grew in large part because many Zelda sites decided to partner up and fee dtheir fans into it. They heavily promoted it. Today, the two largest Zelda sites in the entire world - far larger than all those small sites combined back in the day, can now feed their fan bases into a single wiki. It can be done.

Anyways, that's the last bit I am talking about the wiki in this thread. It's not really what this thread is about or for in the first place. I shouldn't really even be promoting this convo here.

Gunno sum up my response to all this with: I completely disagree, 100% with what you think about wikis and how they can grow and adapt. And my concerns for how it is going to grow hinges heavily on the forums, and that makes it relevant to this discussion. If you don't feel it's important, then that's your opinion but it doesn't make it irrelevant. I've explained in depth why I think they're important. and as for Zelda Wiki... that was an entirely different situation. Zelda Wiki didn't have any competition. It was an entirely new idea. It could grow because it was a new idea that got a community right away that was transplanted to it. You keep thinking that promoting a wiki means just advertising it. But that's not what ZW got at its birth, it got PEOPLE, actual people from the various sites came over and started working on it. That's not the same thing as putting up ads saying "hey, there's a wiki here, go look at it" And now with us, we're in an entirely different situation. We are trying to build and maintain a wiki against two established rivals that have a headstart on us both in contributor based and established web footprint that we haven't caught up with. Being so reckless with how we handle it now is not going to help.

And, I'm not trying to be mean or anything here, but honestly I'd hardly call your own two previous Zelda-based wikis successes. Your first wasn't, and the second never got a chance to find out it could have been. And as for Metroid Wiki, that went fantastically but you didn't do it alone; it got a critically important and helpful lifeline from partnering NIWA wikis that actively brought over actual people, seasoned veterans who knew their stuff, to help build it (and not just advertising it), something we don't have and can't count on. While at the same time we've managed to get a wiki going over here that is in a better position now than Zelda Wiki when it was the same age, so it's not unreasonable to say that I might just know a thing or two about how they work and what they need, and I would really appreciate it if I wasn't so constantly dismissed as someone who doesn't know anything about them. Our wiki itself has less than a half dozen people working on it. That's not enough, that's not a community and it can't sustain itself. If you really don't think the wiki should be your priority, then maybe it's not such a good idea for you to so readily dismiss what I have in mind for it. I would never suggest that the ZI front page change how it does things. I know nothing about it, my opinion would mean nothing. But I do know wikis, and I am absolutely certain that my ideas about its health and long term needs are accurate and worth taking seriously instead of dismissing out of hand.

Never really said subsections can't exist. But you want to make the experience as fluid as possible. Take the tech and science boards. Moving them to a subsection of general doesn't help them, nor does it change the fact that people just aren't that interested int alking about that stuff save once in awhile, and once in awhile fits just fine in the overarching scheme of what a general board covers in the first place. Mafia is obvious a different beast. I don't mind it existing if we plan to use it. But when our Pokemon League died out we moved the boards to an archived format, noting if interest peaked again we would start the boards fresh so it's a fresh start not cluttered with years gone by. Worked really well. But again, I am fine with them as is, just want us to start using them. It's been months, is anything going to turn it around?

No, the point of making subsections is to make the main index look less cluttered. You did make a pretty big deal about what a big problem too much scrolling would do. Subsections is a more reasonable solution than removing sections. "Too much scrolling" is not a reason to get rid of anything.

But as I said, it's not like anything we try out is set in stone. If we try to have things one way and it doesn't work, then.... well it just didn't work, try something else. From my experience, you can't plan these things out and expect it to go to plan. The only way that ever seems to work is trying something, and making smaller changes whenever a particular thing didn't work. Trial and error. Fine tune it until you get exactly what harmonizes best with the community. Something which you cannot simply quantify in a statement here.

Essentially. Wiki minor promotion at ZI has already begun. Nothing huge beyond SEO helping. But, once I formulate a more long term plan for ZI promoting the wiki with Mases, it's going to explode. That and, forum merging really has nothing to do with hurting the wiki anyways. If anything, it draws a second communities' attention to it.

Just need to point out again that promoting viewers =/= promoting contributors. All this promotion you're talking about is explicitly targeting viewers and it's not going to do a single thing to help people actually want to make edits to it. You keep acting like the two needs are synonyms but they're not. they're totally, completely different needs that need to be handled separately and I'm not convinced that what we've been trying or what we have planned is going to change that.

As I said, I am just talking about active versus dead boards. Not really what should happen to Mafia in general. As someone "brand new to this community" here is what I get the impression of looking at the Mafia board - NO ONE PLAYS IT. So when someone says "people who don't play mafia stop trying to say x" - no one is playing Mafia right no. No one. So...

Doesn't mean it can't be revived. but it can't just sit dead either. There should be a nice plan in place to revive it or move it, or scrap it. Etc. Maybe even replace it with Mafia 2.0, etc. Just food for thought. Keep in mind that I have no power to change things here. As I said, everything is staying as is as far as I am aware. I am just opening discussing possibilities.

I don't exactly see how restarting something (like Mafia 2.0), ever makes the slightest bit of difference. It's not going to change how people act, what they want to do. It's more so a self-indulgent move that looks like it's trying to say it tried something when in reality it did nothing.

 

[Nathanial Rumphol-Janc]

Gunno sum up my response to all this with: I completely disagree, 100% with what you think about wikis and how they can grow and adapt. And my concerns for how it is going to grow hinges heavily on the forums, and that makes it relevant to this discussion.

This is about merger forum suggestion conversation. Nothing you have brought up in regards to the wiki has any play int his discussion. Bring up ways we can change the boards in this merger to help the wiki - now you've got some productive conversation. Otherwise this entire conversation about the wiki hasn't had any productivity for the merger. Hence, it isn't relevant since you haven't made it relevant. You just keep saying it's important, but not suggesting anything to change with this merger to help it.

And, I'm not trying to be mean or anything here, but honestly I'd hardly call your own two previous Zelda-based wikis successes. Your first wasn't, and the second never got a chance to find out it could have been. And as for Metroid Wiki, that went fantastically but you didn't do it alone; it got a critically important and helpful lifeline from partnering NIWA wikis that actively brought over actual people, seasoned veterans who knew their stuff, to help build it (and not just advertising it), something we don't have and can't count on.

Not to downplay NIWA's involvement, but it was almost strictly in helping set up the wiki outside of one particular contributor. Otherwise, it was ZI fans that built out the wiki. Not that this is relevant at all, but it is a success outside of NIWA's involvement.

While at the same time we've managed to get a wiki going over here that is in a better position now than Zelda Wiki when it was the same age, so it's not unreasonable to say that I might just know a thing or two about how they work and what they need, and I would really appreciate it if I wasn't so constantly dismissed as someone who doesn't know anything about them. Our wiki itself has less than a half dozen people working on it. That's not enough, that's not a community and it can't sustain itself. If you really don't think the wiki should be your priority, then maybe it's not such a good idea for you to so readily dismiss what I have in mind for it. I would never suggest that the ZI front page change how it does things. I know nothing about it, my opinion would mean nothing. But I do know wikis, and I am absolutely certain that my ideas about its health and long term needs are accurate and worth taking seriously instead of dismissing out of hand.

Never dismissed your ideas. In fact, I have yet to actually see one idea presented. You just keep saying the forums are important and that's as far as you've gone. All I have done is say the forums are not the only way to achieve success. You do realize that's all you've done right? You just keep saying how essential they are without actually giving any ways in order to use the boards to help the wiki. I get it, you think they are essential, but what do you want to actually do? There hasn't been a single conversation since I arrived on that. I am at least laying out some ground work and a gameplan that will lead to success outside the boards. I'm not dimissing the boards. Also, half of my promotions involve actively promoting editing. But let's pretend it's all traffic based. (though, traffic does lead to more editors as well).

No, the point of making subsections is to make the main index look less cluttered. You did make a pretty big deal about what a big problem too much scrolling would do. Subsections is a more reasonable solution than removing sections. "Too much scrolling" is not a reason to get rid of anything.

It's not just the scrolling. Again, you went into your old habit of ignoring the bigger point. Dead boards are dead boards. We should either find a way to make them active (whether they are sub-boards or not), or we should consolidate. Making them sub-boards doesn't fix the activity concerns I have. Again, it's highly likely nothing happens anyways.

But as I said, it's not like anything we try out is set in stone. If we try to have things one way and it doesn't work, then.... well it just didn't work, try something else. From my experience, you can't plan these things out and expect it to go to plan. The only way that ever seems to work is trying something, and making smaller changes whenever a particular thing didn't work. Trial and error. Fine tune it until you get exactly what harmonizes best with the community. Something which you cannot simply quantify in a statement here.

Most of my suggestions have been about fine tuning and then adjust as we go (like the future zelda board). Nothing is ever set in stone.

Just need to point out again that promoting viewers =/= promoting contributors. All this promotion you're talking about is explicitly targeting viewers and it's not going to do a single thing to help people actually want to make edits to it. You keep acting like the two needs are synonyms but they're not. they're totally, completely different needs that need to be handled separately and I'm not convinced that what we've been trying or what we have planned is going to change that.

And I never said I was just going to be promoting views either. Though, more viewers can equal more editors. You know what I see ZD constantly lack that other wiki's have for these "viewers" - constant promotion to those viewers to help. Stub page notifcations, Like I did a random page - got a thing that said "this interview doesn't conform to interview standards". Okay, how does that get me to want to help? Another page like this: http://www.zeldadungeon.net/wiki/index.php?title=Illusory_Mansion&/Special:Random= This is clearly incomplete. A Stub. There is nothing there telling me I can edit it. Nothing asking me to help contribute. There is nothing encouraging me as a viewer to help out. I see just that? F that, I'm out.

Zelda Wiki: http://zeldawiki.org/Ballad_of_the_Goddess - openly admits it's a stub. Asks the viewer to help expand it. This seems compeltely missing at ZD and is a key thing that converts viewers into contributors.

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Tao_trio

Another example, This stuff is missing at ZD's wiki and doesn't need forums to correct.

 

[Lozjam]

Wall of text of off topic posting...
Yay.......
:bno:

 

[Emma]

This is about merger forum suggestion conversation. Nothing you have brought up in regards to the wiki has any play int his discussion. Bring up ways we can change the boards in this merger to help the wiki - now you've got some productive conversation. Otherwise this entire conversation about the wiki hasn't had any productivity for the merger. Hence, it isn't relevant since you haven't made it relevant. You just keep saying it's important, but not suggesting anything to change with this merger to help it.

Well look at it this way. You are a representative of the community that wants to absorb this one. If someone at this community thinks an issue is relevant to that merger, they ought to have the right to bring it up. And since you're here to hear what we have to say, it's really not up to you to dictate what we have a right to be concerned about. That's up to us. And since the wiki community is next to non-existent, my voice along makes up a very huge part of what is left of it. So the fate of the forum is a big concern for the wiki and its staff.

Never dismissed your ideas. In fact, I have yet to actually see one idea presented. You just keep saying the forums are important and that's as far as you've gone. All I have done is say the forums are not the only way to achieve success. You do realize that's all you've done right? You just keep saying how essential they are without actually giving any ways in order to use the boards to help the wiki. I get it, you think they are essential, but what do you want to actually do? There hasn't been a single conversation since I arrived on that. I am at least laying out some ground work and a gameplan that will lead to success outside the boards. I'm not dimissing the boards. Also, half of my promotions involve actively promoting editing. But let's pretend it's all traffic based. (though, traffic does lead to more editors as well).

Actually, I've spent the better part of the last two years pestering Mases and near everyone else about implementing a lot of the promotional ideas that he brought to your attention. If you remember in the previous version of this thread, he explicitly mentioned that fact. So I have brought a lot of valuable ideas to the table and we're implementing every single one I had suggested to him except for this one. Yes, this one is important and I've made a big deal about it, but it's hardly been the only thing. So I'd appreciate you didn't downplay what I have done to make these promotions happen. The very first thing I did when Mases told me about the acquisition was start spinning ideas how ZI could promote the wiki. Go ahead, ask him, he'll tell you that's what I did.

And what you've constant missed is that I've been saying that the forums are a very important part of my idea for the wiki's success. Not once have I ever said it was the ONLY road to its success. Back to my advertising analogy. I said you basically want to advertise a product without enough employees to make enough of it to meet demand. Well flip that on its head, what good is a lot of product going to do if no one knows about it? I never, ever, not once said we shouldn't be doing any of the promotions. We have to do them, they are extremely important. And what's more, I think you should have some leeway on doing whatever you think will help to better bring in more viewers. For years it's something you've always been amazingly skilled at that I have always respected. I still don't know how you do it half the time. It's part of why, despite my other issues, I'm very excited about the aacquisition The wiki will hugely benefit from good promotion. And I was drawing blanks on further ideas, and from the sounds of it you have had several of your own. But it doesn't change what I think about how to get contributors to it. And, what's more, how to get reliable contributors that will stick with it and not just random people who stay for a week and then vanish. I believe that if people are already firmly committed to the community, like they would be in the forum, they would be far more useful contributors than some random viewer that was brought in by the wiki promotions that just decided one day to click "Create an account."

It's not just the scrolling. Again, you went into your old habit of ignoring the bigger point. Dead boards are dead boards. We should either find a way to make them active (whether they are sub-boards or not), or we should consolidate. Making them sub-boards doesn't fix the activity concerns I have. Again, it's highly likely nothing happens anyways.

I'm not seeing how that's incompatible with my "trial and error" reasoning though. If a board is dead and our attempts to revive it didn't work, then we deal with it. It's not like it'd be heresy to adapt to a changing situation.

Most of my suggestions have been about fine tuning and then adjust as we go (like the future zelda board). Nothing is ever set in stone.

I'm not totally convinced that a purely ZI setup is the best thing for us. But that's not to say what you've suggested is unreasonable. The way the Zelda sections have been handled here certainly haven't been working. And I do think your idea of a permanent future games section is a much more reasonable idea than how we handle those games now. It fluidly fits that need without having to to switch things up all the time.

And I never said I was just going to be promoting views either. Though, more viewers can equal more editors. You know what I see ZD constantly lack that other wiki's have for these "viewers" - constant promotion to those viewers to help. Stub page notifcations, Like I did a random page - got a thing that said "this interview doesn't conform to interview standards". Okay, how does that get me to want to help? Another page like this: http://www.zeldadungeon.net/wiki/index.php?title=Illusory_Mansion&/Special:Random= This is clearly incomplete. A Stub. There is nothing there telling me I can edit it. Nothing asking me to help contribute. There is nothing encouraging me as a viewer to help out. I see just that? F that, I'm out.

Zelda Wiki: http://zeldawiki.org/Ballad_of_the_Goddess - openly admits it's a stub. Asks the viewer to help expand it. This seems compeltely missing at ZD and is a key thing that converts viewers into contributors.

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Tao_trio

Another example, This stuff is missing at ZD's wiki and doesn't need forums to correct.

Well I don't think it's a magic pill that will cause viewers to mash that create account button like it's candy, it's not that unreasonable a suggestion. It's worth thinking about. What I can say about why it is the way it is now, is we didn't want to have things be too repetitive. Still it's worth a larger conversation. I'll put it on my list of pending subjects that need to be discussed on the wiki. I've just been waiting to see if any ZD front page writers or former ZI Wiki contributors wanted to join right away first. Another important issue on the list is fan game coverage.

 

[Nathanial Rumphol-Janc]

Wall of text of off topic posting...
Yay.......
:bno:

Yeah... sorry. I know Matt feels this is all on topic - at least his most recent stuff is starting to get back to the real topic at hand. Sorry for my part in that. I just wanted Matt to actually get to this point on his own... my mistake.

Well look at it this way. You are a representative of the community that wants to absorb this one. If someone at this community thinks an issue is relevant to that merger, they ought to have the right to bring it up. And since you're here to hear what we have to say, it's really not up to you to dictate what we have a right to be concerned about. That's up to us. And since the wiki community is next to non-existent, my voice along makes up a very huge part of what is left of it. So the fate of the forum is a big concern for the wiki and its staff.

Not disagreeing. I am listening. Just waiting for something relevant to talk about.

I believe that if people are already firmly committed to the community, like they would be in the forum, they would be far more useful contributors than some random viewer that was brought in by the wiki promotions that just decided one day to click "Create an account."...

Not ignoring everything you said, but I'm really trying to steer this back on topic. I asked it twice to three times the last time I replied to you. I said all you've been doing since I got here is simply saying they are important. I haven't actually seen any proposals that have anything to do with the merger. I get it, forums are important to you and the wiki. But in what ways did you want to use the forums to help the wiki? See, that's what this merger talk is about. What happens in the merger, coexistence, and what if anything changes. You brought up concerns for the wiki - but it doesn't appear as if the wiki is being ultilized with the boards as is and you presented nothing to me so far to push that. Again, I'm literally done talking about the wiki until you bring up something relevant to changing things in this merger to suite the wiki.

I'm not totally convinced that a purely ZI setup is the best thing for us. But that's not to say what you've suggested is unreasonable. The way the Zelda sections have been handled here certainly haven't been working. And I do think your idea of a permanent future games section is a much more reasonable idea than how we handle those games now. It fluidly fits that need without having to to switch things up all the time.

Yeah. I don't think ZI's setup is that great. Ultimately though, I do like the idea behind the Zelda section setup. Love some more feedback from others on this. Haven't really presented it to the staff yet.

 

[Emma]

Not ignoring everything you said, but I'm really trying to steer this back on topic. I asked it twice to three times the last time I replied to you. I said all you've been doing since I got here is simply saying they are important. I haven't actually seen any proposals that have anything to do with the merger. I get it, forums are important to you and the wiki. But in what ways did you want to use the forums to help the wiki? See, that's what this merger talk is about. What happens in the merger, coexistence, and what if anything changes. You brought up concerns for the wiki - but it doesn't appear as if the wiki is being ultilized with the boards as is and you presented nothing to me so far to push that. Again, I'm literally done talking about the wiki until you bring up something relevant to changing things in this merger to suite the wiki.

Uhm.... it's bit um..... well saying "the forums haven't been used to help the wiki before, why should they now" is really a bizarre way to dismiss the idea. That it hasn't been utilized like that before in no way means it shouldn't in the future. And it actually did have some integration before. There used to be two banners marking wiki contributions. Wiki Scribe and Wiki Contributor. They were deleted without any of the wiki staff having any say in the matter whatsoever. And nothing has been done to integrate it in since besides agreeing to issue awards to it, which still is in a kind of development hell stage now.

Which.... hey, can be a relevant issue here for this. And it's worth talking about right now. Because it's going to matter to both forums no matter what is ultimately done, whether we merge them over here, over there, or keep them apart, they're going to want to support the wiki. Now, now, now, let's not waste time going over how just one thing isn't going to be that valuable. We are, after all, planning to a lot of things to help it. As far as awards go, I think they can help to make awards more palatable to the ZI people. I understand they were concerned about the kind of behavior that they'd encourage to have awards of any kind on the forum. And hey, I actually completely agree with those concerns. And what I actually was thinking was that if we increased the number of awards available, and the number of things you can do to get them, they wouldn't be such a rarity and therefore would be less of a novelty and bragging right, which would logically mean people would be less smug about them so we wouldn't see as much negative behavior. And I certainly think we should come up with more awards for it besides helping the wiki. It is to serve the community, why no get the community's suggestions on what kinds of non-wiki awards to add besides the ones that already exist?

 

[Lozjam]

So.... Let's get back on topic shall we?
I think, going forward, we should add something that is really clever, inspires interpersonal discussion with other members, and it can serve as a reward for good behavior.
Kinship stones!

They could be foreign objects, that you have to go and find other people to connect with. But you cannot see other peoples kinship stones until you tag them in a certain thread in the forum to discuss.Then, when you connect with someone, something special happens this day for both users. These could be things like, getting twice the credits for the day, getting extra credits, being able to change another users profile picture for the day, having your name bolded in the Shoutbox, having different kinds of emojis, ect. I think this would be a cool thing to do down the line, and it would differentiate our community even further from other gaming forums.

It would take a bit to implement on the other hand, but I think that we may get a closer community because of it.

 

[Emma]

Uh... I'm not so sure that anything adding the ability to affect anything on other user's accounts is a good idea. Too much room for abuse there. But a kinstone theme.... himm,... maybe we can take that somewhere. I'd have a more specific suggestion if I could think of one, which I can't.

I'm not totally against adding special abilities as part of awards. But I feel I have to remind people that exactly that was used as a big reason why the Knights and Noble groups were deleted, despite the fact that the only special ability they got was the ability to close their own threads, which everyone seems to have now anyway unless I had a brain fart, which is possible, super tired now. So it's possible that people will take issue with such abilities now.

 

[Jamie]

@Nathanial Rumphol-Janc no one plays it because we've had some stagnation, but it will come back, people have been busy. Are you going to be in charge when the merger happens? If so, I'd rather you didn't make any changes. Everything is/has been working fine, and we don't need anything to change. I dont mind a domain change, but I'm pretty sure I speak for everybody when I say ZI rules and organization can stay off of this forum for all we care. If I wanted to be staffed by the ZI staff, I'd have joined ZI years ago when I first heard about it. But I don't, and I didn't. I joined ZD, and have spent nearly 4 years here, admined here for over a year, and have been a big part of numerous changes. ZD is working fine right now, and if moving to the ZI board means more than a URL change, all of the ZD forum users (read: 95% of the ZD/I forum community) are going to be upset.

 

[Dan]

@Nathanial Rumphol-Janc no one plays it because we've had some stagnation, but it will come back, people have been busy. Are you going to be in charge when the merger happens? If so, I'd rather you didn't make any changes. Everything is/has been working fine, and we don't need anything to change. I dont mind a domain change, but I'm pretty sure I speak for everybody when I say ZI rules and organization can stay off of this forum for all we care. If I wanted to be staffed by the ZI staff, I'd have joined ZI years ago when I first heard about it. But I don't, and I didn't. I joined ZD, and have spent nearly 4 years here, admined here for over a year, and have been a big part of numerous changes. ZD is working fine right now, and if moving to the ZI board means more than a URL change, all of the ZD forum users (read: 95% of the ZD/I forum community) are going to be upset.

From what I've read he doesn't plan to change anything on our forums, although a few other posts seem somewhat contradictory to this.
We really do need an informative thread explaining what WILL and WON'T happen when it comes to the merge. There's so much information about the merge all over the place regarding what will, might, could happen etc.

 

[Nathanial Rumphol-Janc]

Uhm.... it's bit um..... well saying "the forums haven't been used to help the wiki before, why should they now" is really a bizarre way to dismiss the idea. That it hasn't been utilized like that before in no way means it shouldn't in the future.

That's not what I said. That makes at least 4 times now I asked you what you wanted to do with integration. :/ I am literally asking, not dismissing.

And it actually did have some integration before. There used to be two banners marking wiki contributions. Wiki Scribe and Wiki Contributor. They were deleted without any of the wiki staff having any say in the matter whatsoever. And nothing has been done to integrate it in since besides agreeing to issue awards to it, which still is in a kind of development hell stage now.

Which.... hey, can be a relevant issue here for this. And it's worth talking about right now. Because it's going to matter to both forums no matter what is ultimately done, whether we merge them over here, over there, or keep them apart, they're going to want to support the wiki. Now, now, now, let's not waste time going over how just one thing isn't going to be that valuable. We are, after all, planning to a lot of things to help it. As far as awards go, I think they can help to make awards more palatable to the ZI people. I understand they were concerned about the kind of behavior that they'd encourage to have awards of any kind on the forum. And hey, I actually completely agree with those concerns. And what I actually was thinking was that if we increased the number of awards available, and the number of things you can do to get them, they wouldn't be such a rarity and therefore would be less of a novelty and bragging right, which would logically mean people would be less smug about them so we wouldn't see as much negative behavior. And I certainly think we should come up with more awards for it besides helping the wiki. It is to serve the community, why no get the community's suggestions on what kinds of non-wiki awards to add besides the ones that already exist?

I still don't really understand the point of rewards. But if you make too many, doesn't that make them pointless anyways? As for the Wiki titles and rewards - I mean fine. But is that really all this is about? Because giving some arbitrary titles and allowing some sort of reward for being part of the wiki doesn't at all to me seem like something that is pushing and promoting the Wiki - but rather is just something for people who already do stuff at the Wiki. Like, I am really intersted in your ideas which is what I keep asking - but is this it? Because if that's all this is about I am positive the staff and I can agree on this stuff. I just don't know how much that's going to help.

So.... Let's get back on topic shall we?
I think, going forward, we should add something that is really clever, inspires interpersonal discussion with other members, and it can serve as a reward for good behavior.
Kinship stones!

They could be foreign objects, that you have to go and find other people to connect with. But you cannot see other peoples kinship stones until you tag them in a certain thread in the forum to discuss.Then, when you connect with someone, something special happens this day for both users. These could be things like, getting twice the credits for the day, getting extra credits, being able to change another users profile picture for the day, having your name bolded in the Shoutbox, having different kinds of emojis, ect. I think this would be a cool thing to do down the line, and it would differentiate our community even further from other gaming forums.

It would take a bit to implement on the other hand, but I think that we may get a closer community because of it.

Not a bad idea. Wonder what others think about it it!

@Nathanial Rumphol-Janc no one plays it because we've had some stagnation, but it will come back, people have been busy. Are you going to be in charge when the merger happens? If so, I'd rather you didn't make any changes.

No, Jimmy is staying at the head of the forum. I would be below him.

Everything is/has been working fine, and we don't need anything to change. I dont mind a domain change, but I'm pretty sure I speak for everybody when I say ZI rules and organization can stay off of this forum for all we care. If I wanted to be staffed by the ZI staff, I'd have joined ZI years ago when I first heard about it. But I don't, and I didn't. I joined ZD, and have spent nearly 4 years here, admined here for over a year, and have been a big part of numerous changes. ZD is working fine right now, and if moving to the ZI board means more than a URL change, all of the ZD forum users (read: 95% of the ZD/I forum community) are going to be upset.

I have stated numerous times that nothing is going to change. What I AM doing is listening to your folks complaints and seeing if there is any way to address them. As an example - there does seem to be some disagreement and issues with the Zelda forum structure - is it possible it can be done in a better way that suites everyone? Why is say, "ZI's rules and organization" suddenly this terrible thing? Our rules basically are the exact same as the rules ZD already has. Our organization is different, but it's not worlds apart either. The only big differences are besides Zelda boards, we have less other stuff - but it wasn't always that way.

As for staff by ZI staff, plan is for me to be an admin below jimmy and for two others from ZI to be mods. So sure, there would be ZI folks, but I mean, of course there would be? ZI does have some really active users that are most certainly going to be part of the boards moving forward. While things are mostly staying as is, you do have to understand it is a melding of two communities together. Are you just going to be that inconsiderate of the other side? Already write us all off before you really get a chance to know the wonderful people at ZI?

There seems to still be this stigma around that ZI has these rules and this attitude that is completely different from ZD. That isn't the case at all and hasn't been for several years. I mean, we haven't had a massively active forum in nearly 4 years. But that was due to database concerns mostly because of mismanagement of it by the former owner. At the end of the day, we have to learn to coexist or you're just always going to be angry. I think we can, but you have to be willing to give it a chance or it doesn't matter.

From what I've read he doesn't plan to change anything on our forums, although a few other posts seem somewhat contradictory to this.
We really do need an informative thread explaining what WILL and WON'T happen when it comes to the merge. There's so much information about the merge all over the place regarding what will, might, could happen etc.

It's been stated 50 times over. :/ Not sure what is so unclear really.

1. Forums are being combined.
2. Forums are combining into the premium IPB software and hosted on ZI's side of things to take more advantage of universal accounts.
3. Forum structure, rules, are staying the same as ZD is currently.
4. All posts, users, bans, threads, and all that are moving over.
5. For addons currently in place, equivalents will be found and added before the forums go live again.
6. As with any combination, some ZI staff would be part of the forum team. Only makes sense (like myself).
7. Jimmy is still head of the forums.

So for you folks you are changing software and url, but gaining better infrastructure with the accounts and the increased userbase from Zelda Informer combined with the extra promotion to grow the community that Zelda Informer possesses.

The only thing I really care about is that everyone is treated equally. I can't guarantee that happens perse. But I know it's a goal of mine and it seems to fall in line with your folks desires. Beyond that, all I am doing is making suggestions. They may all get shot down. That's fine, I can live with that. I'm just generally trying to make this an even better place in anyway I am able to. But one thing should be fairly clear - I don't force things to happen. If folks shoot it down, they shoot it down and that's that.

 

[DARK MASTER]

Sometimes we repeat ourselves to be absolutely certain, because this is a new relationship between us, but we appreciate your quick and clear communication. Thanks Nate! ^^

 

[Nathanial Rumphol-Janc]

No problem. I want this to be as smooth as can be.