First Five Titles - Timeline Issue?

[Pinecove]

Here's a rundown of AST:

You played as yourself (not Link, but a character from the "real world"). You wore normal clothes and a hat on backwards. You could play as a boy or girl.

The temples you went through in the game were mixed up from the original design in ALttP. Some temples were in different locations, and none of the temples had the same setup. For example, Death Mountain itself was like a temple.

You collected a bunch of tablets throughout the game from each temple. Characters also talked a lot about the hero from ALttP. All of that was canon. In the end, you fought Ganon's spirit (somehow). Who had the exact same powers as regular Ganon did.

In my opinion, you can't take a Zelda game and say that its literally a video game, and pull a character from the real world into it, and consider it canon. That's the biggest thing that makes AST non-canon for me. Also, besides that documentary, the game has never been mentioned elsewhere and its importance has never been emphasized. I would think that if AST were important, it would have been made more available to all audiences of the Zelda universe. And last, AST literally has no ties to any other Zelda games other than ALttP, where it tells some backstory about what happened in that game. Nothing in it is even important enough to tie in with the rest of the series or a timeline, unless you wanted to use it as a crutch to prove ALttP/LA, because it does talk about Link leaving Hyrule after that game.

It has connections to LA. Also different temples = different gameplay. You of all people should know that same gamplay = boring.

 

[MrMosley]

It has connections to LA. Also different temples = different gameplay. You of all people should know that same gamplay = boring.

I noted that it had connections to LA (being that Link left Hyrule).

Boring doesn't constitute for a complete change of the entire land of Hyrule in a canon ALttP. The temples can't mysteriously change that drastically just because they are boring. They could have easily had the same temples with different creatures in them, but that's not what they did. They put different temples in different locations and almost changed their entire makeup.

Look at it this way... You can either say OoT is canon, or Master Quest (MQ) is canon. It can't be both. AST went the extra mile in changing temples by location and makeup, while MQ just changed their makeup while keeping the same story. Its like this: If MQ had say, placed the Water Temple in the Ice Cavern, and the Fire Temple in some random cave in the middle of Hyrule, then changed their entire design to what it was in MQ, then MQ would be a lot more like AST, and no one would consider it canon. Even if MQ would have had a different hero, and talked about Link going to Termina, the fact that those temples were changed and put in random places would render that game non-canon, IMO, because those places were not there some short time before.

 

[Pinecove]

Boring doesn't constitute for a complete change of the entire land of Hyrule in a canon ALttP. The temples can't mysteriously change that drastically just because they are boring. They could have easily had the same temples with different creatures in them, but that's not what they did. They put different temples in different locations and almost changed their entire makeup.

Hyrule is exactly the same in AST as it is in ALttP besides Lake Hylia. Plus FSA has the same temples as ALttP but in different places with different insides.

Look at it this way... You can either say OoT is canon, or Master Quest (MQ) is canon. It can't be both. AST went the extra mile in changing temples by location and makeup, while MQ just changed their makeup while keeping the same story. Its like this: If MQ had say, placed the Water Temple in the Ice Cavern, and the Fire Temple in some random cave in the middle of Hyrule, then changed their entire design to what it was in MQ, then MQ would be a lot more like AST, and no one would consider it canon. Even if MQ would have had a different hero, and talked about Link going to Termina, the fact that those temples were changed and put in random places would render that game non-canon, IMO, because those places were not there some short time before.

That's completely different because MQ is a remake of OoT not a sequal.

 

[Zemen]

That's completely different because MQ is a remake of OoT not a sequal.

I think his point is that AST is supposed to take place shortly after ALTTP but all of the geography of where the temples are is COMPLETELY different from ALTTP which makes no sense that the temples would have moved in that short amount of time.

 

[MrMosley]

Hyrule is exactly the same in AST as it is in ALttP besides Lake Hylia. Plus FSA has the same temples as ALttP but in different places with different insides.

Right. But FSA isn't a game that takes place a month or two apart from ALttP. Like for me, I put FSA before ALttP, but not directly (of course). FSA takes place generations before ALttP, and just like OoT to TP, a lot changes in that broad range of time. AST takes place quite obviously right after ALttP (probably not a day, but more like a week or a month). That is not long enough for the makeup of temples to change, and definitely not long enough to have temples mysteriously changing locations.

That's completely different because MQ is a remake of OoT not a sequal.

Correct. But the two are comparable. AST is an altered version of ALttP's temples and dungeons. MQ is also an altered version of OoT's temples and dungeons. I wasn't comparing the fact that one is a harder version and the other is a sequel, but that they are both altered versions of an original Hyrule. In that respect, only one Hyrule can be the canon version. So one has to make a choice based on that fact, which is choosing the canon version.

MQ didn't make any drastic changes to the temples locations, just their makeup. AST changed location and makeup. But either way, only one can be the canon version. You can't logically say that AST is canon when the temples have been altered in such a way as they are in that game from the setup of ALttP, an obviously canon title.

 

[Pinecove]

Right. But FSA isn't a game that takes place a month or two apart from ALttP. Like for me, I put FSA before ALttP, but not directly (of course). FSA takes place generations before ALttP, and just like OoT to TP, a lot changes in that broad range of time. AST takes place quite obviously right after ALttP (probably not a day, but more like a week or a month). That is not long enough for the makeup of temples to change, and definitely not long enough to have temples mysteriously changing locations.

AST takes place 7 years after ALttP. Also FSA WAS going to lead directly into ALttP.

 

[Zemen]

AST takes place 7 years after ALttP.

Still would be too short of a time for a lot of the geography of dungeons to change.

Link "rested" 7 years in OoT when he became adult Link, and everything geographically still stayed exactly the same.

Also FSA WAS going to lead directly into ALttP.

WAS doesn't change the fact that it DOESN'T.

 

[sign of table]

Still would be too short of a time for a lot of the geography of dungeons to change.

I could post like 8 quotes from Miyamoto saying that gameplay is more important than consistency/story.

They would never put everything in the exact same place since they already had BS TotG/LttP around the same time that would have been just repetitive and ridiculous.

The fact that dungeons are in a different spot is such a small and insignificant fact considering the overworld is the exact same.

 

[MrMosley]

I could post like 8 quotes from Miyamoto saying that gameplay is more important than consistency/story.

Which is why he doesn't matter when it comes to the timeline.

They would never put everything in the exact same place since they already had BS TotG/LttP around the same time that would have been just repetitive and ridiculous.

Which is why it can't be canon. You cannot say that it would be boring and make that make up for the fact that its completely different. That doesn't work. That's just an excuse. The developers could have easily changed the makeup of Hyrule or designed some new areas, but they didn't.

The fact that dungeons are in a different spot is such a small and insignificant fact considering the overworld is the exact same.

That doesn't work for me. You can't say that a dungeon in a completely random place is okay as long as the overworld is the same. That doesn't cancel out the fact of the dungeons being mixed up.

I'd like to also see what everyone thinks about the game making itself out to be a video game by pulling a character from the "real world" in... No one has addressed that yet.

 

[Pinecove]

WAS doesn't change the fact that it DOESN'T.

Of coarse it does. If FSA was going to be the complete SW as originally planeed, then it would have directly proceeded ALttP, meaning Geography would have had no time to change.

 

[MrMosley]

Of coarse it does. If FSA was going to be the complete SW as originally planeed, then it would have directly proceeded ALttP, meaning Geography would have had no time to change.

FSA was going to be the SW... But the SW doesn't happen directly before ALttP. It certainly wouldn't have been a direct sequel. In fact, OoT was originally meant to be the SW, and its layout is quite different than ALttP's as well. No one ever said the SW came right before and if it did, it wouldn't make sense anyway seeing as how its referenced as a legend in ALttP.

 

[Zemen]

Of coarse it does. If FSA was going to be the complete SW as originally planeed, then it would have directly proceeded ALttP, meaning Geography would have had no time to change.

Once again, that doesn't matter at all. If FSA WAS going to be the SW then maybe ALTTP would have been directly after with no time to change, but FSA isn't stated to be the SW so there was time to change so I don't see what you're trying to argue here.

And MrM. explained how the SW never once has been stated to be directly before ALTTP.

 

[Pinecove]

And MrM. explained how the SW never once has been stated to be directly before ALTTP.

Which is exactly my stance on OoT-LoZ-AlttP.

OoT-AlttP can work, but everyone is asuming it HAS to work because ALttP is directly after the SW which it isn't.

 

[sign of table]

Once again, that doesn't matter at all. If FSA WAS going to be the SW then maybe ALTTP would have been directly after with no time to change, but FSA isn't stated to be the SW so there was time to change so I don't see what you're trying to argue here.

However the map in the beta was the exact same map.

Right NOW there is time to change, but back in the beta there WASN'T that time and they didn't give a *insert swear word here* then; so why would that suddenly matter now?

In fact, OoT was originally meant to be the SW

According to your beloved in-game evidence, it wasn't.

No one ever said the SW came right before and if it did, it wouldn't make sense anyway seeing as how its referenced as a legend in ALttP.

Wait didn't Erimgard debate THIS EXACT THING with you to show you how OoT=SW CAN work after TWW?

 

[Zemen]

However the map in the beta was the exact same map

Last time I checked we use the actual game to get our information, not the beta that isn't canon.