Do you think it would be fun to play a Zelda game where you can create your own character?

[thePlinko]

I dunno. If something has been part of a series long enough to be "tradition", then it should probably be changed or cut.

Link at this point is barely a character. The only reason he has a companion is so they can wipe the drool from his mouth as he vacantly stares at everyone he meets.

That’s the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.

By your logic it should no longer be called “Zelda” or even have any connections to the rest of the series whatsoever. I mean it’s been like that for 19 titles, we have to change it.

A series needs tradition in it, otherwise it’s not a series. It’s a group of games that happen to be lumped together for one reason or another.
If you don’t like these things that have been staples of the series since 1986 then by all means, don’t play.

And will you please stop using that drooling joke? It’s not funny, and never has been.

 

[Mikey the Moblin]

yeah I think it'd be cool in a spinoff game, I've never really considered before how cool and unique all of zelda's different intelligent races are
main series game with generic character customization like hair color and some facial feature swaps like Miis? Nah, link is iconic (tho his green tunic is iconic too but nintendo don't care)
I already kind of dislike the hyrule warriors games though, I'm not sure how much expansion the series can take
part of me wants the franchise to expand anyway, it would be cool to get more multiplayer games that actually become mainstream

 

[Bowsette Plus-Ultra]

That’s the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.

By your logic it should no longer be called “Zelda” or even have any connections to the rest of the series whatsoever. I mean it’s been like that for 19 titles, we have to change it.

A series needs tradition in it, otherwise it’s not a series. It’s a group of games that happen to be lumped together for one reason or another.
If you don’t like these things that have been staples of the series since 1986 then by all means, don’t play.

And will you please stop using that drooling joke? It’s not funny, and never has been.

There's nothing wrong with carrying over some of the same core concepts between games in a series. What I do take issue with is how Zelda is often unwilling to deviate from its established story and gameplay structure. I should not be able to layout the plot of a new Zelda game beat for beat without having seen any of the game itself.

I will stop pointing out Link's vacant drooling the moment he stops doing it.

 

[thePlinko]

There's nothing wrong with carrying over some of the same core concepts between games in a series. What I do take issue with is how Zelda is often unwilling to deviate from its established story and gameplay structure. I should not be able to layout the plot of a new Zelda game beat for beat without having seen any of the game itself.

I will stop pointing out Link's vacant drooling the moment he stops doing it.

I guarantee you that you can’t do that with any Zelda game made after LttP. If you take out the story (maybe) nearly each and every title in the franchise has been completely unique from one another in every way outside of the basic concept. Trying to say that TP has the same gameplay structure as LA is ignorant at best, idiotic at worst. Comparing Zelda to literally any other series makes this painfully obvious, as no other series even begins to reach the level of uniqueness that Zelda has amongst itself.

He’s never done that. Not once. At no point has “drool” ever come out of any links mouth, literally or figuratively. Even OoT has had link be a generally well-defined character, while staying in the realm of believability that’s required of a player-insert character. Everything before that (as well as the oracle games and MC) was a product of hardware limitations or the fact that the style didn’t lend well to over characterizing Link, such as the multiplayer titles.

 

[Bowsette Plus-Ultra]

I guarantee you that you can’t do that with any Zelda game made after LttP. If you take out the story (maybe) nearly each and every title in the franchise has been completely unique from one another in every way outside of the basic concept. Trying to say that TP has the same gameplay structure as LA is ignorant at best, idiotic at worst. Comparing Zelda to literally any other series makes this painfully obvious, as no other series even begins to reach the level of uniqueness that Zelda has amongst itself.

He’s never done that. Not once. At no point has “drool” ever come out of any links mouth, literally or figuratively. Even OoT has had link be a generally well-defined character, while staying in the realm of believability that’s required of a player-insert character. Everything before that (as well as the oracle games and MC) was a product of hardware limitations or the fact that the style didn’t lend well to over characterizing Link, such as the multiplayer titles.

Beginning with ALTTP, most Zelda games fell into a slump regarding their story structrure. They always feature a largely absentee villain (usually working for some bigger villain who totally isn't Ganon) appear and kidnap/threaten a Princess Zelda character. This prompts the exploration of three temples (always based on some basic element like fire, air, or water), after which a magical sword will be introduced. This leads to the secondary chain of temples, which is concluded by a fight with a Ganon who shows up almost exclusively during the last 5% of the game.

And Link most definitely is not well characterized. He's a cardboard stand-in of a character with no meaningful character traits or personality. A dozen games have handled silent protagonists better than Zelda, and I'm sure a dozen more will continue to do so.

 

[Chevywolf:30]

Then go play those dozen other games and let us enjoy Zelda.

 

[twilitfalchion]

Then go play those dozen other games and let us enjoy Zelda.

Or perhaps let other people have and express their opinions. That's the whole point of discussion.

 

[Chevywolf:30]

I'm not opposed to discussion and debate. What I'm opposed to is the nonstop, borderline toxic, criticisms that come from Bowsette about this series. And Bowsette, before you say anything about loving this series and wanting it to improve, whenever you pull that, you always cite another series for how it should improve. Again, I say: go play those other games. The reason Zelda games are so successful is the fact that they're so different. If they were to get stuff like "muh graphix" and a protaginist with enough personality for you, there would be the people who rejoiced, but a lot of Zelda fans would be sorely disappointed. Again, I don't understand why you claim to love this series when all you have to say about it is negative.

 

[twilitfalchion]

I'm not opposed to discussion and debate. What I'm opposed to is the nonstop, borderline toxic, criticisms that come from Bowsette about this series. And Bowsette, before you say anything about loving this series and wanting it to improve, whenever you pull that, you always cite another series for how it should improve. Again, I say: go play those other games. The reason Zelda games are so successful is the fact that they're so different. If they were to get stuff like "muh graphix" and a protaginist with enough personality for you, there would be the people who rejoiced, but a lot of Zelda fans would be sorely disappointed. Again, I don't understand why you claim to love this series when all you have to say about it is negative.

Calling a harmless joke "borderline toxic" is an overstatement. Every comment Bowsette has made (that I've seen) has always been civil and well-considered, jokes or not.

And so what if someone decides to criticize a series? If someone's criticism prevents you from enjoying something, you need to evaluate yourself as to why you're allowing someone to influence you so strongly.

I may want Zelda to adopt characteristics of other game series. And? Does that make me any less of a Zelda fan? Not at all. Again, this goes back to varying perspectives on creative media. You may want Zelda to remain as traditional as possible, but others don't necessarily feel that way.

And yes, loving something would naturally lead to criticism of it, especially when you see the wasted potential it has. Zelda is a fantasy series perfectly suited for deep, compelling narratives and colorful casts of characters, yet Nintendo squanders that opportunity at nearly every turn. Rarely does any character in a Zelda game express depth of character, with BotW's Zelda being a notable exception, for example.

Do I still love Zelda as a series? Yeah, I do. WW and BotW are great games. Does that mean I think they're without flaw? No, and I will readily point out where they can improve because of my love for them.

 

[Chevywolf:30]

I don't doubt that you're a Zelda fan, Twilit. We've had good conversations about what we like about Zelda. I do disagree that there's no compelling chatacyers, though. Midna, KoRL, WW Ganon, Ilia, OoT young Zelda, Darunia, off the top of my head. My real question is you, Bowsette, I've never seen you say a good thing about the series.

 

[Echolight]

I've been watching this unfold for awhile and I think I should step in.

I don't think you should make a Zelda game where you can create your own characters. I love the idea of Link being a 'link' to the player. Link is supposed to be us, traveling the lands of Hyrule. We decide what Link felt at that moment in the game, because we are Link. That's why his name is Link. If he was either scared or courageous, it's up to us. If he was thrilled to save Hyrule or not, it's up to us. He was never meant to have his own personality, our personality (or one that we come with) is his. When you feel emotional at a part of the story, Link will too. If you're angry, so will he. And I love that. I have never seen another game like that. So Link could be the most snobbiest person on the planet, or be the most shy, sweet person in Hyrule. It's up to the player. That's why I don't want a personality forced on him, we, as a player, give him a personality. That's why there's a whole range of fan art that depicts him so differently.

I loved how we could name Link whatever we wanted in most Zelda games. I'm a little sad we couldn't do that in BotW, but I realize that with voice acting in the game, it would be difficult. They couldn't just make Zelda voice-act as many names as they could. Honestly, I don't think the voice-acting was necessary. Don't get me wrong, all the actors did a great job, but I feel like it didn't need to be done. I like leaving how the voices sound up to the player. (One of the many reason I love books) If they didn't do the voices, they could've made Link have a unique name, focus more on portraying the emotion with facial expressions in the memories, save money from hiring actors and use for other areas of the game, etc. I know they'll make more voice-acting in BotW 2. It'll be weird if Zelda could speak in BotW but not in BotW 2. Maybe when a new Zelda game comes out that's not a sequel, they can stop with the voice-acting for a little bit.

Now on to the debate.

Then go play those dozen other games and let us enjoy Zelda.

Now, I disagree with Bowsette's posts, but they should still be able to play Zelda games. They're just expressing their opinion on what would make Zelda games better, just like I said they should stop with the voice-acting. They should have the right to disagree with what Nintendo does to Zelda games and still play them. Or is it just because you disagree with the changes that they can't have that opinion and still play Zelda games?

You need to respect everyone's opinion, even if you disagree.

 

[thePlinko]

Beginning with ALTTP, most Zelda games fell into a slump regarding their story structrure. They always feature a largely absentee villain (usually working for some bigger villain who totally isn't Ganon) appear and kidnap/threaten a Princess Zelda character. This prompts the exploration of three temples (always based on some basic element like fire, air, or water), after which a magical sword will be introduced. This leads to the secondary chain of temples, which is concluded by a fight with a Ganon who shows up almost exclusively during the last 5% of the game.

And Link most definitely is not well characterized. He's a cardboard stand-in of a character with no meaningful character traits or personality. A dozen games have handled silent protagonists better than Zelda, and I'm sure a dozen more will continue to do so.

First off, you said beat for beat, what you are giving here is a gross oversimplification of the majority of plots. Saying that the stories are all the same just because the structure is similar is blatantly disregarding the story being told. If we want to go this route than literally every story ever told can be divided into at most a handful of categories. There’s nothing wrong with the way Zelda has been telling its stories, it’s perfectly blended them with a gameplay structure that works.

2nd, you’re not even right. The structure you have described can be applied to LttP, OoT, TP, LBW, and maybe WW and SS, and even then there are points in that description that don’t even remotely apply to OoT. You’re blatantly disregarding LA, MM, OoX, FS, MC, FSA, PH, ST, TFH, and BotW. That’s 11 of the 17 games that you called out.

This isn’t the first time we’ve had this kind of discussion on link, and it’s probably not going to be the last. Link has enough of a personality for what he’s trying to accomplish. He has motives, characteristics, and in some cases a rather fleshed out personality. I’m not trying to say that he’s the most well-written character out there, no one is, but calling him a “cardboard stand in” is stupid. He’s a believable character, while not being too in-depth as to alienate the player.


Now for the other thing

Then go play those dozen other games and let us enjoy Zelda.

I don’t necessarily agree with this, but I definitely see where you are coming. I don’t think I have seen Bowsette say a single good thing about any title but BotW (and maybe LttP). There is definitely a case to be made that he doesn’t seem to like Zelda as a franchise. However I feel like blatantly saying that is jumping to conclusions.


Now for the other side.

Its one thing to say that a series should take inspiration from another. It’s another thing entirely to only say that it should be doing that. From what you’ve been saying, it seems that your proposition is to make the series exactly like every other series under the sun, which is completely disregarding the uniqueness Zelda has as a franchise. There is truly nothing like a Zelda game, sure there are similar titles, but none of them have the same kind of humor, mechanics, style, etc. Now this may not be your intention, but when almost everything I’ve seen you say about this series is negative, there’s bound to be a discussion like this.

 

[Chevywolf:30]

Alright, I owe an apology for trying to shoot Bowsette out of the Zelda Fandom, especially when I go and say that he's borderline toxic. My entire time in the ZD community, I've been debating Bowsette. I've lost a lot of patience with him, but I shouldn't have said what I did.

I still would like to know what it is you like in the Zelda series though, I've never seen anything but negativity from you about it.

 

[mαrkαsscoρ]

no I don't want to create my own character in zelda

 

[Mikey the Moblin]

They always feature a largely absentee villain

Games where this isn't true:
Ocarina of Time
Majora's Mask
Minish Cap
Spirit Tracks
Skyward Sword
A Link Between Worlds

(usually working for some bigger villain who totally isn't Ganon)

Some games where this isn't true:
Link's Awakening
Ocarina of Time
Wind Waker
Minish Cap
Phantom Hourglass
Breath of The Wild

appear and kidnap/threaten a Princess Zelda character.

Some games where this isn't true:
Link's Awakening
Ocarina of Time
Majora's Mask
Wind Waker

the exploration of three temples

Some games where this isn't true:
Link's Awakening
Majora's Mask
Wind Waker
Minish Cap

This leads to the secondary chain of temples, which is concluded by a fight with a Ganon who

I think this is pretty much true of all zelda games
"the premier gameplay of the zelda series is concluded by a fight with the premier series villain"
yep

shows up almost exclusively during the last 5% of the game.

This is literally only true of ALBW, BOTW, and TP rofl

And Link most definitely is not well characterized. He's a cardboard stand-in of a character with no meaningful character traits or personality. A dozen games have handled silent protagonists better than Zelda, and I'm sure a dozen more will continue to do so.

there are a dozen different links all with different characters, and if he had no meaningful character traits nobody could tell you the difference between different Links, which most anyone on this forum very well can

try out some of these games I listed if you're tired of a link to the past