Do you think it would be fun to play a Zelda game where you can create your own character?

[thePlinko]

I mean, Ghirahim is clearly presented as the minion of a larger villain, and I wouldn't count the Imprisoned as an appearance by Demise. Demise only appears in what is literally the very last section of the game, but we're still expected to think he's a good villain.

And Darth Vader is clearly presented as the minion of the emperor, that doesn’t make the emperor the focal point of the antagonistic side, Darth Vader clearly is.

And a character doesn’t need to constantly be in your face to be a good villain. Throughout the entirety of OoT you can clearly see the effects of things Ganondorf has done, overthrowing talon, enslaving the Gorons, freezing Zora’s domain, brainwashing Nabooru, Etc. Just because he’s not physically there doesn’t mean he’s not a key player in the story.

While the Imprisoned isn’t exactly the same as demise, it still serves its purpose of portraying exactly how powerful demise really is. This is why I think that demise is incredibly well written, because you know how bad things would be if he was actually resurrected. As a character he isn’t too great, but as a major piece in the story he is outstanding. Sure he’s only there at the very end, but he didn’t need to be anywhere else.

TP Ganondorf I have no excuse for though. What an absolute horsecrap excuse for a character.

 

[Bowsette Plus-Ultra]

And Darth Vader is clearly presented as the minion of the emperor, that doesn’t make the emperor the focal point of the antagonistic side, Darth Vader clearly is.

And a character doesn’t need to constantly be in your face to be a good villain. Throughout the entirety of OoT you can clearly see the effects of things Ganondorf has done, overthrowing talon, enslaving the Gorons, freezing Zora’s domain, brainwashing Nabooru, Etc. Just because he’s not physically there doesn’t mean he’s not a key player in the story.

While the Imprisoned isn’t exactly the same as demise, it still serves its purpose of portraying exactly how powerful demise really is. This is why I think that demise is incredibly well written, because you know how bad things would be if he was actually resurrected. As a character he isn’t too great, but as a major piece in the story he is outstanding. Sure he’s only there at the very end, but he didn’t need to be anywhere else.

TP Ganondorf I have no excuse for though. What an absolute horsecrap excuse for a character.

I'd argue that a villain does need a significant presence within the story in order to remain compelling. It doesn't matter how powerful the opening scrawl says Demise is if we're never given any measure of that power. It especially doesn't help that Demise is about as compelling a villain as a folding chair is comfortable.

Heck, you can have a villain who is almost beyond evil, whose plans are irrational and genocidal and still make them a convincing and sympathetic villain by giving them an active role in the series. Just check out the rendition of Dracula shown in the Castlevania cartoon:



Horrible and murderous and evil, but made sympathetic thanks to the amount of time he's given on screen.

 

[thePlinko]

It doesn't matter how powerful the opening scrawl says Demise is if we're never given any measure of that power.

We are though. My entire point was that the game showcased the kind of destruction demise was capable of causing on multiple occasions.

You’re citing a one-off instance where a constant exposure to a villain benefits the story and saying that all villains have to be that way, otherwise they’re not well written. What if the writer doesn’t want the audience to sympathize with the villain? The amount of screen time a character has almost no effect on the quality of writing. Emperor Palpitine from Star Wars barely showed up in the original trilogy, and yet is still one of the most iconic and beloved villains of all time, movie or otherwise. There’s not one way to make a character, and just because demise is barely in SS in the flesh doesn’t make him a bad character.

Anyway this has gone on too long, especially since this thread had nothing to do with this topic to begin with.

 

[Bowsette Plus-Ultra]

We are though. My entire point was that the game showcased the kind of destruction demise was capable of causing on multiple occasions.

You’re citing a one-off instance where a constant exposure to a villain benefits the story and saying that all villains have to be that way, otherwise they’re not well written. What if the writer doesn’t want the audience to sympathize with the villain? The amount of screen time a character has almost no effect on the quality of writing. Emperor Palpitine from Star Wars barely showed up in the original trilogy, and yet is still one of the most iconic and beloved villains of all time, movie or otherwise. There’s not one way to make a character, and just because demise is barely in SS in the flesh doesn’t make him a bad character.

Anyway this has gone on too long, especially since this thread had nothing to do with this topic to begin with.

I mean, I just don't find Palpatine a very interesting villain, but even so he has far more appearance and impact on the series he stars in than Ganondorf has managed throughout his entire thirty-five year run. Demise is a bad villain because there's been no thought put into him outside of making him another Ganon and having him show up at the end of the game, because that's just what Zelda villains do.

Ganon would be infinitely more memorable as a villain if I were made to empathize with him to any degree. Being made to understand the actions of a villain and even come to empathize with them ultimately makes a villain scarier and better, since it means the villain is a person rather than some bland caricature.

 

[Mikey the Moblin]

Ganon would be infinitely more memorable as a villain if I were made to empathize with him to any degree. Being made to understand the actions of a villain and even come to empathize with them ultimately makes a villain scarier and better, since it means the villain is a person rather than some bland caricature.

:^)
guess what

Spoiler

that happens

...

 

[Mikey the Moblin]

Listen, I agree with the source of your complaints, but they just factually don't apply to the legend of zelda in most instances like you're making them out to do.
It's no wonder you have so many problems with the series when you toss aside every attempt the series makes toward achieving what you want out of your narratives

 

[Bowsette Plus-Ultra]

:^)
guess what

Spoiler

that happens

...
View attachment 45391

I mean, yeah.

For like two sentences.

 

[Shroom]

Not crazy about a customizable character, I do like what BOTW with different armor sets and clothing. I liked that in OoT as well, and that's enough for me.

To add to previous discussion in a sort of out there way. I'd argue Ganondorf is perfectly present in OoT.

1.He's in Link's nightmare at the beginning of the game
2. The Deku Tree warns you of him and you again see him in cutscene and learn that he's the reason that Link's somewhat fraternal figure, said tree, is dying.
3. You see him through the garden as he looks on to you and Zelda
4. He's at the drawbridge chasing Zelda and attacks Link
5. He again shows up to mock you after this scene for falling for his plan and gaining access to the sacred realm
6. You see all the damage he's done when you're an adult and you don't really even need to see him at this point. You see what he's capable of, and your pretty peaceful kingdom has turned to **** because of Ganondorf. That's motivation there and enough background to show how powerful he is. He has a triforce piece, and at this point, you don't know/have any other piece to even the playing fields.
7. He comments on your fight with Phantom Ganon while, again, showing his power by throwing him some in-between dimension, but the fight with Phantom Ganon in itself is basically a warm up for what you can expect from Ganondorf.
8. He mocks you again before he kidnaps Zelda and then invites you to try and stop him.
9. Pipe organ boy
10. Fight

This is all a really simplified version of it all too, but Ganondorf has quite a bit of screen time in OoT.

I really only see him being an aside character in Twilight Princess because he's kind of shoehorned in, but the entire time I played Ocarina of Time or Wind Waker, I knew I was basically going to have to get tough enough to square off against Ganondorf. I actually think Ocarina of Time does the best job in building him up and in contrasting him to Link. You're a powerless child who has to defeat the evil sorcerer king of the desert who is going across the land and harming all its inhabitants. You need to get stronger to do so, and I mean, the child to adult is as in your face with a coming to age story as it gets.


I can't think of any other series, bar maybe Banjo Kazooie or Mario 64 where the final boss appears more, but even then, those are outliers in themselves. If there are better examples that actually work, I'd love to hear a few, but otherwise, I think it's pretty fine, except maybe TP.

 

[Mikey the Moblin]

Ocarina of Time does a great job of building from ALTTP and characterizing Ganondorf as "just a man" (as opposed to an omniscient/omnipotent evil), but I really like Wind Waker's take on him, because we get to see his perspective. Little glimmers of it that help us extrapolate what kind of person he is. He's still the power hungry ruthless monster from OOT, but now we can see he has other more human character traits like jealousy and pride. It's a nice touch.