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Demise Vs Ganondorf

PhantomTriforce

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JuicieJ said:
I agree that it's not a very valid point. However, even with the Triforce of Power, Ganondorf is still not as strong as Demise is. Ganondorf's power is the equal to what we see in his fights. No other power is brought up through dialogue. Demise's power is watered-down in the fight for gameplay purposes. His true power is far beyond what we saw in his fight. (Which, by the way, is harder than any fight with Ganondorf.)

1) How exactly do you know that Demise's power is watered-down for the fight? What are you basing this on?
2) Demise fight is not harder than any Ganondorf fight, especially not the one in A Link to the Past.

JuicieJ said:
Again, Twilight Princess. The sword duel between Link and Ganondorf only uses the Master Sword, and in the fight with Ganon, Wolf Link's teeth are enough to damage his weak spot. Nothing like that would be able to happen with Demise because the only weapon that could truly damage him is the Master Sword. Ganondorf can be hurt by pretty much anything. He's not a demigod like Demise.

Nowhere does in state that Demise is a demigod. Also, you're missing the point. Just because Demise can be hurt only by the Master Sword does not make him stronger than Ganondorf. It actually makes him weaker, since the Master Sword alone cannot kill Ganondorf. And so what if Wolf Link's teeth can damage Ganon's weak spot? Wolf Link is still Link, and Link still has the Triforce of Courage. And Wolf Link is only possible because of the Triforce of Courage.

JuicieJ said:
Hylia didn't defeat Demise. She only subdued him. Again, she used the Goddess Sword, which was powerful enough to WEAKEN him, but not enough to DAMAGE him. Basically a case of wearing him out without leaving any scars.

Hylia was able to damage Demise. The take a look at that scar on Demise's head. See it? Where did it come from? The large sword like thing Link drives into the Imprissoned's head while fighting him. Where did that large sword thing in his head come from? HYLIA.

JuicieJ said:
Majora and Demise are both more powerful than Ganondorf. Actually, Bellum and Malladus are portrayed via dialogue to have more power than him, as well. Ganondorf is really one of Zelda's weaker villains.

I don't even know how you fool yourself into thinking this is true. Majora is by far, the weakest of them all. The Kokiri Sword alone is enough to defeat Majora. Pathetic. And Bellum and Malladus are not portrayed anywhere to be stronger than Ganondorf. Bellum and Malladus might be stronger than Demise, but not close to Ganondorf.
 

Igos du Ikana

Maldorok
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I would disagree with Majora being the weakest villain since he's showcased the power to control practically everything in Termina. Wikipedia says "The Happy Mask Salesman tells Link that Majora's Mask has an evil, apocalyptic power inside, which was once used by an ancient tribe in hexing rituals. The ancient ones, fearing catastrophe caused by its great power, "sealed the mask in shadow forever" to prevent its misuse."
 

Ronin

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Whether one is stronger or weaker is not really the question; if you stop to think about it, Ganondorf and, the antecedent to nearly all of the current Zelda foes, Demise are almost identical in power. The tools that Link garners so that he may defeat them don't differ except in one or two factors, at most. But how does that gauge which is the mightier? Well, in my belief it's important to analyze the similarities over the differences.

Beware of some SS plot spoilers beyond here.

As most of us may already know, Ganondorf is capable of great feats thanks to the Triforce of Power being in his possession. He can levitate himself, generate electrical orbs, summon spiritual riders, possess princesses...and even turn into a giant beast, sometimes boasting twin daggers. This suggests that he is a foreboding combatant that any sane or fearful man would turn tail and flee from. During one point, Ganon was able to take over an entire kingdom and rule it for a seven year period. How he achieved this, as far as I know, is unverified. But the point stands that with his power he could make Hyrule crumble beneath his influence.

On the other hand, Demise himself has a similar backstory. He had mustered an army beneath his banner and set out to subjugate Hyrule in its early stages. Only by the influence of the Goddess Hylia was his invasion quashed, and Demise was sealed within another world. His own powers include summoning an electrical surge into his sword, which he then released (likewise to Ganon's orbs, I might add), and becoming an enormous menace, not unlike Ganon Beast. Although his abilities seem limited, we might have only seen a small sample of them. After all, the biggest thing that sticks our to me is that it took a goddess to stop him originally.

The Master Sword marks yet another factor that demonstrates the equivalence between them. They can only be defeated by the Blade of Evil's Bane, thus Link must find it each time he confronts them. The MS is also tied in with the "curse of hatred" that Demise mentioned before he was sealed away within the blade. It seems Ganondorf is a reincarnation of Demise, and through that he appears to have more power than the Demon King. But could it be that they aren't so different in that way of looking at it?

Quite possibly, they are the same being.

Ganondorf is the stronger of the two; as you said he possesses the Triforce of Power which alone puts him on a higher caliber than any previous villain, even the big D himself. Now, I don't know the specifics, but I believe Ganondorf can only be defeated by one who wields a piece of the Triforce as well as the Master Sword itself. Demise only requires the Master Sword.

I believe that Ganondorf is stronger than Demise. In terms of battle, Demise can be killed by the Master Sword alone. Ganondorf, however, needs other weapons too like the Light Arrows in addition to the Master Sword.

Allow me to remind you both that in order for Link to have the strength to confront Demise, he needed to obtain all three Triforce pieces first. Then, and only then, would he be able to harness the full power that the Goddess Hylia would ultimately bestow upon him. Does this make Demise more powerful than Ganondorf? Not necessarily. I only don't see them being that much different in overall might.

I don't even know how you fool yourself into thinking this is true. Majora is by far, the weakest of them all. The Kokiri Sword alone is enough to defeat Majora. Pathetic. And Bellum and Malladus are not portrayed anywhere to be stronger than Ganondorf. Bellum and Malladus might be stronger than Demise, but not close to Ganondorf.

Again, I feel that you should be reminded of where the battle with Majora takes place. It's not Hyrule where this happens, but Termina, which is an alternate universe of sorts to Hyrule. Nevertheless, the only resemblances to be found are the similar designs between Hyrulean and Terminian inhabitants. Other than that, the land of Termina seems to have rules of its own—rules that don't require the same certain tools for its great evil to be overthrown. In this case, that evil would be Majora, the chaotic demon that spread pandemonium across Termina. It isn't bound by the same weaknesses as either Demise or Ganondorf, as it is an entirely different entity than them. But this is mainly pure conjecture on my part, yet I find it to be a very reasonable projection.
 
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They are basically the same being yet different, and they are worthy to be Link's arch enemy.
 
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JuicieJ

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1) How exactly do you know that Demise's power is watered-down for the fight? What are you basing this on?

He's stated to have the power to destroy the entire world and created his own fricken' realm for he and Link to fight. Did he do anything close to that stuff in his fight? No.

2) Demise fight is not harder than any Ganondorf fight, especially not the one in A Link to the Past.

I don't consider Ganon battles to be the same as Ganondorf battles. One is human form, one is pig beast form. They're the same ENTITY, but not the same FIGHTS. And I'm pretty sure Demise is much harder than Ganondorf in OoT, TWW, and TP. Besides, Demise is still way stronger than any incarnation of the pig beast Ganon.

Nowhere does in state that Demise is a demigod. Also, you're missing the point. Just because Demise can be hurt only by the Master Sword does not make him stronger than Ganondorf. It actually makes him weaker, since the Master Sword alone cannot kill Ganondorf. And so what if Wolf Link's teeth can damage Ganon's weak spot? Wolf Link is still Link, and Link still has the Triforce of Courage. And Wolf Link is only possible because of the Triforce of Courage.

Demigod may not be the exact proper term, but he most certainly has demigod-like powers. He's the equivalent of the Devil of the Zelda franchise. You should pay attention to the dialogue in Skyward Sword. I think you'll clearly see how powerful he's supposed to be.

As for only being able to be hurt by the Master Sword making him weaker... no. That means only one freakin' weapon can hurt him. Ganondorf can be hurt by anything. And, as I've mentioned countless times before, he was fought and killed in TP with just the Master Sword. No other item was required in that final fight. The Master Sword alone CAN kill Ganondorf. This is absolute fact.

Hylia was able to damage Demise. The take a look at that scar on Demise's head. See it? Where did it come from? The large sword like thing Link drives into the Imprissoned's head while fighting him. Where did that large sword thing in his head come from? HYLIA.

That giant scar in his head is from the Sealing Spike. Remember how it was on the Imprisoned? Yeah, the Imprisoned is a weaker form of Demise. It isn't stated to only be vulnerable to the Master Sword, and this is shown in his battles, since we fight him with just the Goddess Sword in his first encounter.

I don't even know how you fool yourself into thinking this is true. Majora is by far, the weakest of them all. The Kokiri Sword alone is enough to defeat Majora. Pathetic. And Bellum and Malladus are not portrayed anywhere to be stronger than Ganondorf. Bellum and Malladus might be stronger than Demise, but not close to Ganondorf.

This is where you're wrong. Majora has the power to destroy the entire world without effort. He created a freakin' moon just to do it. Majora can be harmed by normal weapons, yes. But so can Ganondorf. Bellum is an entity that can only be subdued by the use of time and Malladus couldn't be defeated by every single Spirit in existence. I don't know about Bellum, but Malladus is clearly stated to have the power to destroy the world. Ganondorf is never once stated to have power anywhere close to that. Demise, Majora, and Malladus do, and I wouldn't be surprised if Bellum could do the same. Ganondorf's power is always what we see at face value. These other villains have power that is portrayed outside of their fights and is clearly shown to be leagues above Ganondorf's.

Bottom line, Ganondorf is nowhere near the strongest Zelda villain, and Demise is indisputably more powerful than him. It's not even a contest. Demise would wipe the floor with Ganondorf.
 

PhantomTriforce

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JuicieJ said:
Demigod may not be the exact proper term, but he most certainly has demigod-like powers. He's the equivalent of the Devil of the Zelda franchise. You should pay attention to the dialogue in Skyward Sword. I think you'll clearly see how powerful he's supposed to be.

Yeah, we got a feel of how powerful he's supposed to be, then find out that he actually isn't that powerful at all. Like I stated, a single goddess was able to defeat Demise (and yes, Demise was defeated. Defeated doesn't only mean killed, it also means to come out as the victor - something Hylia did). The three goddesses who created the entire world and life could not even stand up to Ganondorf.

JuicieJ said:
As for only being able to be hurt by the Master Sword making him weaker... no. That means only one freakin' weapon can hurt him. Ganondorf can be hurt by anything. And, as I've mentioned countless times before, he was fought and killed in TP with just the Master Sword. No other item was required in that final fight. The Master Sword alone CAN kill Ganondorf. This is absolute fact.

As of now, it is only speculation that Ganondorf died in TP. It is not official, as far as I know. If I missed something, please let me know.

And the Master Sword alone was used in the final fight, but to get to that point in battle with him, Link needed to use other items. In OoT and WW it is very clear that the Master Sword alone won't do the trick. The Light Arrows, another sacred weapon, need to be used against Ganondorf too. So I'll break it down to you:

- Hit Demise with Master Sword, he gets damaged.
- Hit Ganondorf with Master Sword, nothing happens. Hit him with Light Arrow to weaken him, then attack him, he gets hurt.

JuicieJ said:
This is where you're wrong. Majora has the power to destroy the entire world without effort. He created a freakin' moon just to do it. Majora can be harmed by normal weapons, yes. But so can Ganondorf. Bellum is an entity that can only be subdued by the use of time and Malladus couldn't be defeated by every single Spirit in existence. I don't know about Bellum, but Malladus is clearly stated to have the power to destroy the world. Ganondorf is never once stated to have power anywhere close to that. Demise, Majora, and Malladus do, and I wouldn't be surprised if Bellum could do the same. Ganondorf's power is always what we see at face value. These other villains have power that is portrayed outside of their fights and is clearly shown to be leagues above Ganondorf's.

Bottom line, Ganondorf is nowhere near the strongest Zelda villain, and Demise is indisputably more powerful than him. It's not even a contest. Demise would wipe the floor with Ganondorf.

How do you know he didn't need effort? How do you know he created the Moon (what if he just turned it evil)? Malladus, like Demise, wants to destroy the world but is never shown doing so. So whether they can really do it is not proved. Also, this also proves how Ganondorf is smarted than either; he wants to control the world. He is also repeatedly shown to be using smart plans using strategy, a trait he could very well use to defeat Demise in no time. Using mind (Ganondorf) > mindless (Demise, Malladus, Bellum).

Ganondorf > Demise.
 

JuicieJ

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Yeah, we got a feel of how powerful he's supposed to be, then find out that he actually isn't that powerful at all. Like I stated, a single goddess was able to defeat Demise (and yes, Demise was defeated. Defeated doesn't only mean killed, it also means to come out as the victor - something Hylia did). The three goddesses who created the entire world and life could not even stand up to Ganondorf.

What are you talking about? Where in the world did you get the idea that the Golden Goddesses are unable to defeat Ganondorf? There is absolutely nothing in the series that even suggests that. Need I remind you that Ganondorf actually gets his power from one of their essences in the first place?

As of now, it is only speculation that Ganondorf died in TP. It is not official, as far as I know. If I missed something, please let me know.

Hyrule Historia confirmed that it was a death.

And the Master Sword alone was used in the final fight, but to get to that point in battle with him, Link needed to use other items. In OoT and WW it is very clear that the Master Sword alone won't do the trick. The Light Arrows, another sacred weapon, need to be used against Ganondorf too. So I'll break it down to you:

- Hit Demise with Master Sword, he gets damaged.
- Hit Ganondorf with Master Sword, nothing happens. Hit him with Light Arrow to weaken him, then attack him, he gets hurt.

Only he didn't need to be hit with Light Arrows in the sword duel. They were only used to slow him down while riding on his horse prior to that. They served no purpose in actually killing him in the final battle.

How do you know he didn't need effort? How do you know he created the Moon (what if he just turned it evil)?

He's just nonchalantly hanging out on the Skull Kid's face while everything was happening. And I say he created that moon because it's directly connected to him. When he entered it, it came alive, and it disintegrated when Majora was killed.

Malladus, like Demise, wants to destroy the world but is never shown doing so. So whether they can really do it is not proved. Also, this also proves how Ganondorf is smarted than either; he wants to control the world. He is also repeatedly shown to be using smart plans using strategy, a trait he could very well use to defeat Demise in no time. Using mind (Ganondorf) > mindless (Demise, Malladus, Bellum).

When dialogue says an entity is capable of destroying the world, there's no arguing against it. It's automatically canonical. Even if it doesn't make sense -- which is something these two things are not guilty of.

Also, how would Ganondorf harm Demise without wielding the Master Sword? That would be impossible. It's certainly true that Demise wouldn't be able to KILL Ganondorf without the Master Sword, but he could defeat him in a battle without a doubt since Ganondorf is capable of being harmed by any kind of weapon.

Ganondorf > Demise.

Demise >>>>>> Ganondorf.
 

PhantomTriforce

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JuicieJ said:
What are you talking about? Where in the world did you get the idea that the Golden Goddesses are unable to defeat Ganondorf? There is absolutely nothing in the series that even suggests that. Need I remind you that Ganondorf actually gets his power from one of their essences in the first place?

Read my first post in this thread.

JuicieJ said:
Hyrule Historia confirmed that it was a death.

Thanks.

JuicieJ said:
Only he didn't need to be hit with Light Arrows in the sword duel. They were only used to slow him down while riding on his horse prior to that. They served no purpose in actually killing him in the final battle.

Fine, but you can't disagree with my point about OoT and WW. It's 100% obvious that there's no way of damaging Ganondorf without the Light Arrows in those games.

JuicieJ said:
Also, how would Ganondorf harm Demise without wielding the Master Sword? That would be impossible. It's certainly true that Demise wouldn't be able to KILL Ganondorf without the Master Sword, but he could defeat him in a battle without a doubt since Ganondorf is capable of being harmed by any kind of weapon.

You're right, neither would be able to kill each other. But Ganondorf can still seal Demise up like Hylia did to Demise. And I'm sure Ganondorf would do that even before Demise could pick up his own sword.

JuicieJ said:
Demise >>>>>> Ganondorf.

Ganondorf >xinfinity Demise. Beat that.
 

JuicieJ

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Fine, but you can't disagree with my point about OoT and WW. It's 100% obvious that there's no way of damaging Ganondorf without the Light Arrows in those games.

I consider Twilight Princess's fights a retcon to the need of using the Light Arrows, just like how I consider the use of the Light Arrows to be retcon to the Silver Arrows.

You're right, neither would be able to kill each other. But Ganondorf can still seal Demise up like Hylia did to Demise. And I'm sure Ganondorf would do that even before Demise could pick up his own sword.

Exactly how would he do that without the proper sword?

Ganondorf >xinfinity Demise. Beat that.

Demise = best there is. :P
 

MsNerrrrd

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Ganondorf. Not only is he cooler, but to defeat him, one requires the Triforce as well as the Master Sword. Slaying Demise only requires the Master Sword. Or was it like that? I think it was.
 
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"Demise’s first battle with a Human was unfolding." Found that in the Hyrule historia. maybe we will see Demise again in the future, unlikely though.
 

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