Motion Plus and the Gamepad are far from equal. I honestly don't know how you could even think this. Do you have eyes? Can you not see the physical difference between the two? One is a short rectangular stick. The other is a large flat tablet. Both of them use an accelerometer to detect motion but, as has been explained so many times I don't have enough fingers left to count anymore, the physical shape of these objects means the real application of that motion will be different.
Like I said, they each have their own unique advantages that give them their own edges over their other.
Again, the Wiimote is shaped aptly for use as as a sword; the Gamepad absolutely is not, being flat and wide instead of long and thin. So while the technology that enables Skyward Sword-esque combat is in both controllers it cannot be applied the same way in both of them. Do you see what I mean? The phrase "the same but different" springs to mind. They might have the same tech but the physical shape of them prevents them being used for the same actions, meaning that gameplay mechanics which relied upon the accelerometer - for example, sword fighting - would have to be handled differently by both controllers. It takes about ten seconds of playing the game to realise that Skyward Sword's entire combat system was designed around using the Wiimote as a sword and this simply would not be possible with the Gamepad because of its shape. To use both in the one game you would have to have two separate combat systems; one like what we saw in Skyward Sword for the Wiimote, and another more akin to the rest of the franchise for the Gamepad. This would take time and increase development costs as enemies, attacks, and special techniques would need to, essentially, be created twice.
This right here convinces me that you're either skimming through my arguments or only paying attention to bits and pieces of what I've had to say. I have said
multiple times that the
right analog stick would be used to control the sword,
NOT the entire GamePad. What on earth could possibly compel me to think that using something as bulky as the GamePad to perform 1:1 motions would be a good idea? That would be, without question, one of the DUMBEST decisions any developer could possibly make. You think I don't know that? Why do you think I've never suggested it. Oh, wait, never mind, you're not AWARE that I've never suggested it because you
don't read my arguments thoroughly. Instead, you focus on specific points to form an argument solely around them rather than the full enchilada so that you can appease your tunnel vision mentality. To quote what I said before:
JuicieJ said:
So what have we learned here today? Oh, yes, we've learned that when addressing topics brought up in the past, one should remember exactly what another has said in order to not call them out on something they never meant.
And all just to accomodate a control method that half the fanbase didn't like and doesn't want.
Ignoring the fact that you have no numbers to back up your statement of "half the fanbase", your statement hilariously enough aids my own concerning the Wii U's multiple controllers being used. Let's say it actually is half the fanbase that doesn't want the Wii MotionPlus. That still leaves a whole other half that WOULD like to see them return. Multiple control options would allow both crowds to be satisfied rather than the entirety of the fanbase being forced to use one specific method. Again, one of the main selling points of the Wii U is its ability to provide freedom of choice in how you wish to play your games on it. Ignoring that would be foolish and a wasted opportunity to satisfy everybody. Like I said before, you're using a tunnel vision mentality to form your arguments, and they'r full of holes as a result.
As well as that there is, once again, all of the things you leave out that the Gamepad has that the Wiimote doesn't. I'll save you the lists you love to ignore but tell me how exactly the Wiimote can replicate a touch screen? If you're thinking about things like how the Wiimote was used in Skyward Sword to draw symbols then yes it could. If you think about how the touch screen makes inventory management and access easier, faster, and more intuitive without cluttering up the HUD then no it can't.
You must have forgotten that inventory management in Skyward Sword was seamless due to the real-time wheels used for the main items and secondary items in the Adventure Pouch, and that the HUD could be decluttered by choosing the Pro option found in the pause menu. These points mean absolutely nothing as a result.
If you think about how the map can be constantly on display and notes can quickly and easily be jotted down with a stylus then no it can't.
The only times notes are needed to be jotted down is if there are puzzles that practically require it, which have only been seen in the DS games, showing that they aren't a necessity in the series. Majora's Mask and Skyward Sword also had vastly superior puzzles to the DS games despite not having any puzzles that required jotting down notes. This point also means nothing as a result.
If you think about using the stylus to pluck strings on an instrument with precision, draw back the string on a bow, or draw the path of a bombchu then no it can't.
Whoa, whoa, whoa, excuse me? Exactly how much are you not aware of in this discussion? The harp in Wii Music could be plucked with precision (which was the cause of my surprise that the Goddess's Harp in Skyward Sword didn't do the same). The nunchuk could be pulled back while holding the C-button in Skyward Sword to instantly charge a full-powered shot. How does that not translate to pulling back a string on a bow? And a bombchu's path wouldn't even need to be drawn were we given control of its path along the way like with the Beetle in Skyward Sword. Seriously, are you even thinking your points through?
Pointing the Wiimote cannot do as wide a range of actions as can be done with a stylus on a physical screen.
Except it can, as I just showed.
And we really do have to keep it in mind that since the touch screen is a separate screen to the TV there are a whole range of advantages to be gained there, some of which I just mentioned, that the Wiimote absolutely cannot achieve even if it could replicate the physical action. So no, the Wiimote cannot replicate the touch screen. Perhaps a few token actions but not everything and not well.
I fail to see anything involving the second screen that would matter besides off-TV play... which the Wii MotionPlus could still be used on, as shown by Pikmin 3. You could bring up the real-time inventory management on the second screen in ZombiU (which you actually did before), but that was strictly to aid in the sense of fear, something Zelda doesn't even remotely focus on. The only things I can really imagine the second screen being used for are the things you already mentioned (which pose no problems to the WM+) and sliding your fingers across the touch screen towards the TV to imitate throwing objects at things, which would also pose no problem to the WM+, since swinging motions can also be used to imitate throwing objects -- even more realistically so. Just another argument that poses no merit.
Last time you dismissed features like the Gamepad microphone as negligable because Nintendo wouldn't use them. I found it funny because Spirit Tracks, a Zelda game developed by Nintendo, made frequent use of the microphone in the DS, primarily for the game's instrument the Spirit Flute. Nintendo also designed several mini-games on various DS Mario games that used the microphone, one of which had you blowing on it to keep Yoshi's in the air on balloons (or something). Nintendo, the people who you thought won't use the microphone, use the microphone in Wii U exclusive Nintendo Land on Donkey Kong's Crash Course. I'm not going to say that the microphone will definately be used in Zelda U but if anyone is going to put it to use it's Nintendo, so it's not so easily dismissed as negligable. The Wiimote has no way to replicate this. Blowing on the Wiimote will just cool it down. Shouting "Objection!" at it will just hurt its feelings. It won't produce an effect in-game. The microphone, which may well be used despite your dismissive misgivings, cannot be replicated by the Wiimote.
"Dismissive misgivings", ha. That's rich coming from you.
Anyway, I ignored the microphone's use in other games because I didn't feel it necessary to bring it up. In every example you gave, it was used in very minor ways that wouldn't pose any immediate benefit to a 3D Zelda game. I assumed you could figure that out on your own. Silly me.
I think it's utterly foolish to claim that the Motion Plus and the Gamepad are equal because both of them have accelerometers. That view ignores the physical difference between the controllers and the implications of such, as well as features exclusive to the Gamepad that have no equivelant on the Wiimote. No one has ever said that both controllers couldn't be used but the people who disagree with you have been very clear and descriptive about why using both will provide no advantage of any kind since one scheme would have to be a stunted version of the other. Anything Nintendo do with the touch screen would be left out of the Wiimote 'version'. Anything they do with the microphone too. The ways in which gyro are used would be different between 'versions'. The way the second screen is used to create a unique experience (you may recall my descriptions of how the second screen is absolutely essential to the gameplay of ZombiU) would be totally absent from the Wiimote 'version'. It would be a stunted 'version' of a game and it's just not worth prolonging development and increasing costs to do that. The worst case scenario would be that the Gamepad isn't utilised to its fullest extent so as to more easily accomodate the Wiimote without too much difference. Which leads me onto your second point.
See all my above points as to why most of this is false and why none of it matters.
The games Nintendo is releasing which use both don't make any particularly innovative or even interestig use of the Gamepad.
Is that so? As Lex said, Pikmin 3 says "hello". The GamePad can be used to easily keep track of multiple captains through the overhead map. It can also be used to scroll over directly to them to see what's going on directly.
If they did they would not so easily be able to use both controllers. Again, ZombiU is the go to example here (I wish there were more games on Wii U) because the single-player game simply would not work without it. On the other hand, a game like Assassin's Creed III can easily work with both Gamepad and Pro Controller because the Gamepad's features are used so little. They don't use the camera or microphone, motion is left out entirely, and the touch screen is used only for inventory selections which are hot keyed to buttons anyway, and to display a map or cut-scenes as appropriate. That's it. The actual gameplay is in no way dependant on its features and it is for this reason and this reason alone that two controllers can be used equally in that game.
Assassin's Creed III actually allows for the gyroscope to be used to steer your ship during the naval combat portions, which will no doubt be carried over to Black Flag for general Caribbean Sea travel in addition to naval combat.
And, again, ZombiU's use of the GamePad is completely irrelevant to the Zelda series.
As I went over in my previous post the majority of Nintendo's first-party exclusives headed for Wii U (Super Mario 3D World, Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze, Mario Kart 8, Smash Bros. Wii U) are incredibly simplistic from a strictly control perspective. You only need a small number of buttons and a directional input in any of those games to make them work. A small number of buttons and a directional input are both found on the Wiimote and the Gamepad as thus both can be used without major disadvantage to one or the other. If the Gamepad's features were used more in these games then this would stop being the case. As it stands the only Gamepad specific function we know of in 3D World is to reveal hidden boxes. Wow. Notice how Mario games on the DS didn't use the touch screen for much either. It would just be making the game that bit more complex than it needed to be and so it wasn't used as the basis for the entire game like Zelda Phantom Hourglass was, or Zelda Spirit Tracks was.
The gyro controls on the GamePad can also be used for camera control (as well as the right stick), and the touch screen can freeze enemies in the exact position they're at, whether on the ground or in midair.
If my oh-so subtle point wasn't made clear there I'll say it bluntly; Zelda is a lot more complex from a control perspective than Mario or Donkey Kong or anything else announced for Wii U. This is because, particularly recently, Nintendo love to incorporate their hardware features as much as possible in Zelda games particularly. Touch control in the DS games, microphone control in Spirit Tracks, motion control all over Skyward Sword, even Four Swords and The Wind Waker were in on the act with GBA connectivity. Why would Zelda U be any different, especially since we know that Nintendo are taking what they learn from The Wind Waker HD and using it for Zelda U? Zelda is simply not equatable to Mario or Smash Bros or Donkey Kong in this way and to draw that comparison time and time again does nothing to bolster your point. This is why it is disputed so often. Just because Nintendo make all of these games does not mean they are the same or work the same way.
And what makes this a fact? You saying so? Zelda's controls aren't nearly as complex as you're making them out to be, and if they're any more complex than the other games you mentioned in the first place (which I highly doubt), it's by a very small margin. Anyone who plays Nintendo's franchises competitively could tell you that. Zelda's controls require simple directional inputs and a small amount of buttons, as well. Sure, items in the past have been set to multiple buttons, but these are merely used as hot keys. The items themselves require very simplistic inputs so that they're intuitive. Not quite sure how you could have missed that.
As far as The Wind Waker HD's controls being adapted to Zelda Wii U, this only further ensures me that Nintendo will use multiple control schemes in Zelda Wii U, as I said in my first post in this thread. TWW HD's controls aren't built from the ground up for the Wii U. They're being adapted from the original GameCube controls to suit the GamePad. The fact that they're using an ADAPTED control scheme as practice for Zelda Wii U, a game that Miyamoto himself said was almost shown off in their E3, indicates to me that they've spent the current development time designing the game with the Wii MotionPlus in mind and are now in the process of adding in the GamePad as another control option. Seriously, if they're using TWW HD, a game that started development WELL after Zelda Wii U's, as practice for the GamePad's use in a game that's capable of being shown off, surely they already had another control scheme they were already familiar with ready for use... and what better scheme than the one Aonuma, the head of Zelda, said he couldn't imagine leaving behind?
Hope all that sank in. Given how you've flat-out missed some of my arguments and can't even think your own through enough to make sure there aren't any holes, though, I'm not getting my hopes up.
