Wouldn't It Be Better if TP Was Before OoT?

[DarkestLink]

Does anyone else think the timeline would look so much neater if we put Twilight Princess after Skyward Sword but before Ocarina of Time? To me, just makes much more sense. Not only for the games, but for the timeline in general.

For reference, here's the timeline: http://cache.gawkerassets.com/assets/images/9/2011/12/29631a766f1537530abc0ec5e6d15515.jpg

Now let's start with the games in general (SS, TP, and OoT)

First off, if we changed the Hero's Shade from OoT Link to SS Link, it makes more sense. SS Link could actually use two of the hidden skills unlike OoT Link.

The Seal Grounds is in a forest and that's where the Master Sword was left. TP Link finds it in a forest. OoT finds it in Hyrule Castle Town (Lanayru providence). But we know from Skyward Sword that there is a Temple of Time in the Lanayru providence. But TP Link definitely finds it in the forest (where SS Link left it) so perhaps after TP, the Temple of Time is rebuilt in the Lanayru providence (where Castle Town is) and the Master Sword is moved here.

In Skyward Sword, Impa says that the goddess wanted the knowledge of the Triforce to be forgotten from mankind and vanish from mortal history. In Ocarina of Time, everyone knows about the Triforce. But in Twilight Princess, nobody knows what the Triforce is. Even Ganondorf and Zelda don't seem to know. Instead, they just refer it as the power that those chosen by the Gods wield. Lanayru, the spirit of light, also doesn't seem to realize it exists. Instead, she claims the Interlopers wanted dominion over the sacred realm. In truth they wanted the Triforce (it's obvious by the image of it in the cutscene). It seems likely that Impa, Zelda, and Link were succesful but by the time OoT came around, people had discovered the Triforce's existence.

However, people seem more familiar with their connection to the sky, including Impaz, Shad, and Rusl (who is familiar to how advanced technology used to be).

Faron, when speaking to TP Link of his destiny, claims he is the successor of another hero who was chosen by the gods. As far as I know, OoT wasn't chosen by anybody. He was just told by the Deku Tree that he had to save the world and he went off. SS Link, on the other hand, was chosen by Hylia to defeat Demise.

This is a minor thing, but I think TP Link's tunic looks much more like SS Link's tunic (Knight Armor) than OoT Link's tunic (...Clothes).

Now, this is why I think putting Twilight Princess before Ocarina of Time is good for the timeline. If you are using the reference, you will see that there are three timelines. However, if we put Twilight Princess before Ocarina of time, we can abolish that "Hero is defeated" timeline completely.

Instead, we can put those six games (A Link to the Past, Oracle of Seasons/Ages, Link's Awakening, Legend of Zelda, Adventure of Link) in between Majora's Mask and Four Swords Adventure and have a neater, less confusing, two-way split timeline.

 

[Cfrock]

I disagree purely because, in my opinion, the timeline as it stands makes sense. Not perfect sense (it was never going to) but it make a great deal of sense and messing about with it only complicates things more.

 

[Xinnamin]

First off, if we changed the Hero's Shade from OoT Link to SS Link, it makes more sense. SS Link could actually use two of the hidden skills unlike OoT Link.

TP was on the child timeline. OoT Link had his entire life to learn the Hidden Skills.

The Seal Grounds is in a forest and that's where the Master Sword was left. TP Link finds it in a forest. OoT finds it in Hyrule Castle Town (Lanayru providence). But we know from Skyward Sword that there is a Temple of Time in the Lanayru providence. But TP Link definitely finds it in the forest (where SS Link left it) so perhaps after TP, the Temple of Time is rebuilt in the Lanayru providence (where Castle Town is) and the Master Sword is moved here.

Considering how Lanayru Province turned from a desert to a lake, it's not impossible to think in the same time the forest around the Seal Grounds was cultivated for Hyrule Castle Town. TP's Master Sword was found inside a Temple of Time, the same Temple of Time where OoT Link left it at the end of his quest. Again, not impossible to believe the forest that was originally there retook the land after Castle Town moved. Locations change with the flow of time, perfectly normal and sensible.

In Skyward Sword, Impa says that the goddess wanted the knowledge of the Triforce to be forgotten from mankind and vanish from mortal history. In Ocarina of Time, everyone knows about the Triforce. But in Twilight Princess, nobody knows what the Triforce is. Even Ganondorf and Zelda don't seem to know. Instead, they just refer it as the power that those chosen by the Gods wield. Lanayru, the spirit of light, also doesn't seem to realize it exists. Instead, she claims the Interlopers wanted dominion over the sacred realm. In truth they wanted the Triforce (it's obvious by the image of it in the cutscene). It seems likely that Impa, Zelda, and Link were succesful but by the time OoT came around, people had discovered the Triforce's existence.

However, people seem more familiar with their connection to the sky, including Impaz, Shad, and Rusl (who is familiar to how advanced technology used to be).

Time does funny things to history. People now know more about the concrete facts of the ancient past than people 100 years ago, while at the same time losing or distorting word-of-mouth cultural knowledge. It seems more likely to me that the knowledge of the Triforce passed on as legend through the culture of the general population, but was lost to time by TP's era (same thing happened to WW and it's Triumph Forks), while things such as the Oocca technology was hidden from the simpler OoT time, only discovered by TP's time due to progress in the field of archeology or whatever.

Faron, when speaking to TP Link of his destiny, claims he is the successor of another hero who was chosen by the gods. As far as I know, OoT wasn't chosen by anybody. He was just told by the Deku Tree that he had to save the world and he went off. SS Link, on the other hand, was chosen by Hylia to defeat Demise.

Aren't they all descendents of the same hero anyways?

This is a minor thing, but I think TP Link's tunic looks much more like SS Link's tunic (Knight Armor) than OoT Link's tunic (...Clothes).

Pretty sure that's just because of the graphical capabilities of the Wii vs the N64.

I'm no timeline expert, never was, but history is history, and if it's written how it is, in my opinion it's just going to be more complicated in the end to reshuffle everything again.

 

[DarkestLink]

I disagree purely because, in my opinion, the timeline as it stands makes sense. Not perfect sense (it was never going to) but it make a great deal of sense and messing about with it only complicates things more.

I'll point out a fan favorite flaw....the third timeline. Why doesn't it split after every game?

I'm a little confused why you think it makes more sense for people to not know about the Triforce in TP, and then suddenly know about it again in OoT.

They discover it. Whether it be through hidden history or from the real Triforce itself.

As civilisation became more dependant on machinery (not shown very well in TP, but it's clear that there is a level of technological advancement)

It was? It seemed far less advanced to me. Heck, they admitted they were less advanced than their predecessors.

they forgot about magical things.

...Not really...Zelda has it, Ganondorf has it...and yet they don't know what it is.

As such, the Triforce became a generic force rather than a worshipped entity.

And somehow they just forgot its name? I mean how goes Ganondorf forget what the Triforce is?

He's introduced in OoT as a mere desert dweller, whilst in TP he is shown to already have displayed his ferocity against Hyrule. For him to then forge an alliance with the King would be damn near impossible.

1) Those aren't the same Ganondorfs. He's reborn just like Link and Zelda.

2) Again, tell me how OoT Ganondorf forgot what the Triforce was.

OoT bore the Triforce, a symbol of the chosen one of the goddesses. As did TP Link.

...What? In OoT, they said that was a symbol of poses sing the Triforce.

TP was on the child timeline. OoT Link had his entire life to learn the Hidden Skills.

Assuming he did. Also assuming he went back to Hyrule, which I find unlikely.

Considering how Lanayru Province turned from a desert to a lake, it's not impossible to think in the same time the forest around the Seal Grounds was cultivated for Hyrule Castle Town.

Except Hyrule Castle Town is in the Lanayru providence.

TP's Master Sword was found inside a Temple of Time, the same Temple of Time where OoT Link left it at the end of his quest. Again, not impossible to believe the forest that was originally there retook the land after Castle Town moved. Locations change with the flow of time, perfectly normal and sensible.

...No I cannot think of any reason why they would do that. Also, I don't recall Castle Town being in the Kokori Forest....but seriously, you get to the Temple of Time through the Lost Woods. OoT's Temple of Time was far far northwest of this (same position Skyward Sword's Temple of Time is from the Sealed Grounds).

It seems more likely to me that the knowledge of the Triforce passed on as legend through the culture of the general population, but was lost to time by TP's era (same thing happened to WW and it's Triumph Forks),

The difference is, the Wind Waker population was completely wiped out. Nothing happened to the other timeline Hyrule.

while things such as the Oocca technology was hidden from the simpler OoT time, only discovered by TP's time due to progress in the field of archeology or whatever.

Which is what I said about the Triforce...so let me see if I have this straight. The idea of people discovering the Oocca (more like...3 people) and forgetting it is just silly. But the idea of Impa not only failing to hide the Triforce from history, but everyone knowing about it and then forgetting it in 100 years along with the fact that someone who once had a life goal of obtaining it (Ganondorf) also forgot about it...is completely acceptable? I'm sorry, I just don't see the sense in that. That's like Christians forgetting who Jesus is in 100 years.

Aren't they all descendents of the same hero anyways?

King of Red Lions says otherwise.

Pretty sure that's just because of the graphical capabilities of the Wii vs the N64.

That's a possibility, but why would a kid wear a battle outfit before he's even called to this journey? (OoT Link assuming his clothes are the same as TP Links).

 

[Cfrock]

I'll point out a fan favorite flaw....the third timeline. Why doesn't it split after every game?

Because if you look closely at the timeline as shown in the Hyrule Historia, the timeline splits at two points, once at the end of Ocarina of Time and once part way through. If we take that as an indication of the nature of the timeline split it leads to one likely scenario: that the Hero Defeated Timeline is not the result of some quantum blah blah many-worlds theory, but rather that the timeline splits when Ganondorf touches the Triforce and it separates. This is the first and only time the Triforce has ever been touched by one whose heart was unbalanced and it makes plenty of sense for each piece of the Triforce to have its own timeline. This fits in with the established lore of the games and ensure that, across the three timelines, the Triforce remains balanced because no single piece was bested by the others.

Whether or not you agree with this idea is irrelevant. I am simply showing why the Hero Defeated Timeline can be seen as just as valid as the others.

It was? It seemed far less advanced to me. Heck, they admitted they were less advanced than their predecessors.

In Twilight Princess they had cranes, magnets, cannons, corrugated iron, immense stones bridges, sewers and photography. Like Blue said, it's not shown off very well, but Hyrule in Twilight Princess is a lot more technologically advanced than it is in Ocarina of Time.

1) Those aren't the same Ganondorfs. He's reborn just like Link and Zelda.

Ganondorf in Twilight Princess is indeed the same Ganondorf we see in Ocarina of Time, well, up to a point. The Ganondorf who cursed the Great Deku Tree, Jabu-Jabu and sealed Dodongo's Cavern as well as planned to betray the King of Hyrule is the Ganondorf in Twilight Princess. We know this because at the end of Ocarina of Time, Link was returned to childhood and he went to inform Princess Zelda of Ganondorf's treachery. Hyrule Historia confirms this. From Princess Zelda's quotes in Majora's Mask we can see that the Zelda of the Child Timeline had never met Link before he brought his warning.

Bottom line is, Ganondorf in Twilight Princess is the same one we see in Ocarina of Time.

Assuming he did. Also assuming he went back to Hyrule, which I find unlikely.

Hyrule Historia confrims that the Hero's Shade is the Hero of Time (OoT Link). This proves that, following Majora's Mask, Link returned to Hyrule. You may find it unlikely but it definiately happened.

...No I cannot think of any reason why they would do that. Also, I don't recall Castle Town being in the Kokori Forest....but seriously, you get to the Temple of Time through the Lost Woods. OoT's Temple of Time was far far northwest of this (same position Skyward Sword's Temple of Time is from the Sealed Grounds)

The Lost Woods do not appear in Twilight Princess. Granted, the Sacred Grove is similar but similar does not mean the same. Faron Woods and the Lost Woods/Kokiri Forest are not the same place. Given the architectural similarities of the Temple of Time found in Twilight Princess and Ocarina of Time as well as the fact that The Master Sword is found in both, Occam's Razor says they are one and the same. Now that creates issues in and of itself, true, but my point here is you cannot dismiss the notion because you mistakenly call the Sacred Grove The Lost Woods.

 

[Random Person]

I have to disagree. Considering TP specifically signifies so many things in OoT makes it hard for me to see it coming anywhere else in the timeline. Its supposed to be OoT's sequel, and it shows. Hyrule in TP looks like an aged OoT Hyrule (albeit, very expanded and just... different in some areas). With all the ruins and worn down towns, its kind of hard to see this coming before OoT where everything was new and people were building towns. Consider places like Death Mountain where the mining facility is. What explanation would we have for that in OoT as to why its suddenly gone? It makes a bit more sense that the gorons continually advanced as a society. There are some points in your post that I could go over, but I feel it would make my post a bit too long so I'm just gonna say that even with the comparisons you've made, imo its not a better fit. There's not really anything I see that could put TP in front of OoT, or anywhere else for that matter. I think it's perfect where it is in the timeline, OoT's sequel.

 

[Ecysmest]

I understand what you're saying, and partially agree with it. As you said, there are a few things that would make sense if TP was put before Oot, however;

When you compare the maps of the two times, Ordon is right where Kokiri village used to be (is sad that the Kokiri are gone). And it looks like the forest temple in TP used to be the Great Deku Tree (Again, due to location similarities). To me, that explains why the Kokiri disappeared. So while there are parts of the two story lines that would make sense in a different order, there are other aspects that hold the two games where they are.

 

[Keeseman]

No, this is not possible. TP was created to directly follow OoT and MM.

The Ganondorf we see in TP was executed, but survives, and then banished to the Twilight Realm. He is executed because of, like Cfrock said, his treachery against Hyrule in OoT: he cursed the Great Deku Tree, he sealed off Dodongo's Cavern and he cursed Jabu-Jabu as well. For his treachery against the land of Hyrule, he was to be executed.

This would be impossible if TP were to follow SS but not OoT. Most significantly, Ganondorf hadn't been born to the Gerudo until pre-OoT. He could not have, in TP, been executed, banished, revived, and killed in TP, and then be reborn in OoT to the Gerudo, as he had not been born yet. Demise had not been born as Ganondorf to the Gerudo yet, and Ganon would not have had a reason to be executed, if TP followed SS but not OoT. It has to be in the order that HH states.

Also, your notion about no one knowing about the Triforce doesn't make sense. You can't assume someone doesn't know something based on the notion that they don't reference it directly. This assumption does not make sense. Besides, many of the important lines in TP- at least as I found it- were much deeper and profound than OoT. They (Zelda and Ganondorf) were probably just speaking in a more profound way, and do not reference the power they possess specifically. Just my guess.

Anyway, it is impossible for TP to not have followed the N64 games, as we can see from Ganondorf's execution.

 

[nsanesk8er16]

that makes no sense because if you recall oot is the first canonical appearance of ganondorf, it is the only game in which he is not revived, and it shows how he got his power.

 

[DarkestLink]

No, this is not possible. TP was created to directly follow OoT and MM.

The Ganondorf we see in TP was executed, but survives, and then banished to the Twilight Realm. He is executed because of, like Cfrock said, his treachery against Hyrule in OoT: he cursed the Great Deku Tree, he sealed off Dodongo's Cavern and he cursed Jabu-Jabu as well. For his treachery against the land of Hyrule, he was to be executed.

The sages in TP say he was trying to gain dominion over the Sacred Realm, was doing it with thieves, and was renown for his cruelty and ruthlessness. None of these are true for OoT Ganondorf. Ganondorf was after the Triforce. He worked alone, the Gerudo didn't even seem to support him. He was also completely trusted by the king.

 

[Ecysmest]

And in the actual timeline of the games, the events of TP would never have happened if the events in OoT hadn't first.

 

[xJustaShotAwayx]

Nope. Because then the part where you get the Master Sword in TP wouldn't make any sense.

 

[Beauts]

It would be neater in some respects but I don't think it would work narratively.

 

[DarkestLink]

Nope. Because then the part where you get the Master Sword in TP wouldn't make any sense.

...Why?

 

[snakeoiltanker]

i hate to say it Darkest Link. but i think the people have spoken.... i was with you when i first read your post, but these people are makeing way too much sense with your argument. dont take it to heart man, thats what these forums are for, an idea is thrown out there and it either is accepted by the fans or not. no need to fight it. you gotta admit they all make valid points!