Why Zelda Wii Should Incorporate GCN/Classic Controller Option!

[Jupiter]

I was under the impression that a classic controller option would be possible without being watered down, according to what information CD provided. I think an option like that without "watering down" the Motion Controls in the process would be pretty neat. Moving forward with technology is great, but saying it's not gimmicky at this point is silly. WMP will make the game awesome, I'm sure, but not everybody wants to move around, and really they shouldn't have to if they don't want to. It's not a matter of clinging to old controls. Most of the time when people complain about it it's because people just want to sit down and play. Motion controls are AWESOME, and yeah, it's really fun to swing a sword or play tennis, but sometimes people just want to sit down with their drink, some junk food, and just laze around and play. And, of course, there are the handicapped players who don't have much of an option.

So, adding classic controller options without watering down motion controls for those who want them? Heck yeah, do it. Too bad Nintendo (or anybody else) doesn't want to spend extra time and money to do it.

No. I contend that you can't do it without detracting from the experience...the game is being designed specifically to take advantage of all the motion control capability...which includes the pointer and the gyroscope (or however it works). If it can be done it means that motion controls are not integrated into the game design sufficiently, I expect they will be.

Also, even if it could be done, let me state this as clearly as possible: ADDING EVEN THE OPTION FOR A CLASSIC CONTROLLER IS WATERING IT DOWN.

Also, I highly doubt that you will have to stand up for any lengthy portion of the game, if at all. I'm sure you'll be able to nestle into your couch groove and lazily explore Hyrule...I can't think of any non-sports or party game with motion controls that you need to stand up for...so I don't know what you're talking about.

Further, I contend that even if it could be done, Nintendo should not allow players the option. More options are not always better--it gives the player the opportunity to dismantle the experience. It would be like a director or writer letting the viewer or reader pick how parts of a movie or story are presented to them...when what you want is a cohesive, artistic vision presented to your audience. There are plenty of classic controller games...but that is not what this game IS. It is something different--you should take it as it's offered, and judge it thusly.

 

[ChargewithSword]

Ok I've finally gotten a chance to read this.

Anyways I believe that Nintendo never thought about handicap people in the situation with the Wii. They have been talking nonstop about incorporating Zelda Wii with an extravagant (or extraneous) amount of motion controls. If there are motion control based puzzles or action scenes that will require moving that Wiimote like a fool then expect gameplay to have to be changed. Sadly as there is I suppose that there would be no chance to really incorporate the GCN or Classic controller without derailing the experience.

Also on the situation of Old School gamers, Nintendo has long and left us in the dark. We have to move on with them or else we might as well move on to Microsoft or Sony and those two are going to soon bring casual gamers into the mix. As we know it, the world of gaming is changing.

However I do believe that perhaps Nintendo could try something; like a special edition that is a slightly different game from the regular Wii version but incorporates the regular non-motion controls but at the same time removes any situation where Motion would be used as a puzzle element. I mean it couldn't be hard, I'm sure, and if you change it a little it would be fine.

Honestly I don't know what to think of this situation only that I would love for there to be an option to switch back to the classics.

 

[Raven]

Remember the old expansion pak for the N64? MM needed it just to play, and I think this next game will require the use of Wii Motion Plus to play. It wouldn't surprise me if they were going for a brand new in game system (combat system) when you think about the crazy time system MM had. I think they are going to try to push the envelope and make somethng original and inspired and this time traditional controls will probably get sacrificed in the process. I'd rather see an original game with a new combat system just to see what they can truly pull off with this new tech. Adding traditional controls might become time consuming and counter productive when you consider how much of that time could be spent on side quests, minigames, upgrades, cut scenes etc. I guess I just don't want the traditional controls to get in the way of the other areas that the game still needs developement in, and that may sound selfish but I don't care! I hope they can pull off the most innovative Zelda game to date, so in that respect I want to see a move away from the traditional, but that isen't to say I want that move to be permenent. More like a one time thing. After they get it right with this game i see no problem with creating an option to choose in future Zelda games, but right now I think they should focus heavily on the motion controls.

 

[Ikana]

Allot of people love the old school ways of playing in fact I wouldn't mind for a option to use the classic controller.But I highly doubt that Nintendo would be kind enough to add that option.I'm not against the motion plus but I would love to see a classic or gamecube controller option if I'm not in the mood to do all that stuff with the motion plus.

 

[Austin]

Sighs.. Let me explain a little better and try not to do technical talk too much. The Wii motion plus adds new sensor controls and registers. Think of registers as more memory, for more data. It makes sense because the more data the Wii can store, the more accurate it can be. When you move your Wiimote around, it stores data into these registers. For example, it'll store: yaw, roll, and pitch.


Imagine the plane to be a Wiimote

The Wiimote itself is a mini computer. Periodically the Wiimote will update these registers with the given information above. If you ever bought a computer and you see the processor runs at x number of hertz. Well there is a reason for that. When your computer runs a program or something. It breaks it into different Computer Instructions. It will execute these instructions at the different periods of times. The more hertz a CPU, the more instructions it can do in a second, and the more work it can get done overall.

The Wiimote works similar. However, the Wiimote does more then update the registers (memory) with the given information. It processes other information like sound and IR sensor (aka the pointy thingy, lol). My point is, it doesn't use every hertz or clock cycle to update the information. The Wiimote itself, doesn't personally update your frame (what you see on your tv screen). The Wii console does that. The Wii console has a lot of other stuff to compute, such as HP points, what the baddies are doing, etc. So it can only read the Wiimote's registers only so frequent. As a Computer Scientist, its all really slow to me, but for you guys it still runs fast.

However, when you move your Wiimote it doesn't get sent straight to your Wii's processor and/or Graphics Processor. It is sent to a buffer or a temporarily data storage on the Wiiconsole. This will allow the Wiimote to update its registers, and the Wii to pull data from this buffer to update your sword or whatever. Once the Wii reads from this buffer, it'll empty the buffer out, update your frame/screen, and go on to do other stuff.

With a classic controller or GCN, there will be no buffer. Instead you will have a small table of data that contains the sword movement or whatever. When you press the B button, the Wii will read this small table, use the data to update your screen/frame etc. For the classic/GCN controller, this table of data will always be the same. This means there will be no variations in sword movement. When you attack with button B, you'll get the same sword movement/attack over and over.

Overall, if they do a controller option and you choose to use Wiimotion plus, you'll get the same exact features you would if they didn't have a controller option at all. In simple, you wouldn't know the difference. This will allow all you Wiimotion plus users to get what you want, and the rest of the world get what they want. It's a win-win situation. If you got any questions about the Wiimote and Wii, you can ask me or go to http://wiibrew.org/wiki/Main_Page. Thankyou

 

[Jupiter]

Overall, if they do a controller option and you choose to use Wiimotion plus, you'll get the same exact features you would if they didn't have a controller option at all. In simple, you wouldn't know the difference. This will allow all you Wiimotion plus users to get what you want, and the rest of the world get what they want. It's a win-win situation. If you got any questions about the Wiimote and Wii, you can ask me or go to http://wiibrew.org/wiki/Main_Page. Thankyou

Ug. CD, that was way too much effort to get to your points. Let me summarize:

1.) For a variety of technical reasons, the feedback from the wiimote compared to a classic controller is of a lower quality. It is less seamless.

2.) If you could have an option for either-or, nobody is hurt in the process.

I don't think either of points are very good ones:

1.) I've played numerous games on the Wii, as have millions of other people, and if the feedback is slower or more inconsistent, it does not seem to be a significant problem...all the games I have played work great. Any delays are not sufficient to cause problems for the games designed for the system. Whatever technical issues you lay out, they are not sufficiently experientially different to be important.

2.) The game simply is not a classic controller game--just because you can mimic the same motions with buttons does not mean that is what the game should be. It is meant to be something different. The motion controls are part of the game...it would be like saying you want an alternate menu, or alternate soundtrack...well, that's not what the game is. Further, using the pointer or motion controls is a different experience than using a classic controller--puzzles or challenges will designed according the the motor skills necessary to use the more advanced controls--they simply are not going to be made or designed for a classic controller. You could play baseball with a ping-pong paddle...but then it really would't be baseball any longer would it?

I say again, if your feeling nostalgic, go boot up Virtual Console or play 3D Dot Heroes...and leave the future to the rest of us.

 

[Zeruda]

Maybe I'm just not technically advanced to understand, but I'm under the impression that, provided the information CD is giving us, this is entirely possible without any noticeable differences in gameplay besides waving your arms around. As it's been put, it'd be a win-win situation.

I think what CD is trying to say, Jupiter, is that there are a lot of people who are left out with motion-controlled-only games. Waving your arms about isn't necessarily the "future" at this point- merely a gimmick. WMP has improved the waving your arms around part, yes, but it's still quite gimmicky at this point. It doesn't mean it's not awesome or fun, but when it comes down to games like Mario or Zelda, NOBODY should be left behind and have to resort to 3D Dot Heroes or the Virtual Console. It's a series people have really grown with over the years. It's a huge part of Nintendo. A game like Red Steel 2, yeah, go balls to the wall with it. But Zelda? Yeah, continue to advance in technology, but if the option for different controls can be implemented without any noticeable difference (like the information CD provided us shows is possible), then DO IT! Not only is it a fair move, but it's a wise one marketing-wise. No handicapped gamer is going to buy Zelda Wii, and there are many people turned away from games because of the controls... offering classic control options (meaning you can still choose motion if you want) would mean more people would buy it. More consumers = more money = more resources to continue advancing technology.

It's not all about sticking to old controls out of fear of change- a lot of it has to do with handicapped people. Wtf will I do if they decide to implement the balance board? What then? I'm handicapped, should I be left behind and not be able to enjoy my favorite gaming series EVER because I'm not physically able? A controller option would be ideal, IMO. It's just like being able to choose your difficulty- same game in the long run. If motion controls don't effect controller controls and vice versa as CD pointed out (meaning, the only difference is moving about or not), then it's a good idea I think. :>

 

[Jupiter]

Look: I'm sympathetic to the handicap argument. If that's the reason, I wouldn't oppose making accommodations for people with disabilities. But even then, if you're handicapped there are just going to be some things you can't experience. And making this game classic controller compatible, if it can be done decently, is lessening the experience--it's a different experience...it's like using a hokey stick to play golf....maybe it can be done, but the two just are not designed for each other.

You're saying this can be done:

without any noticeable differences in gameplay

What??? That's insane. Changing the controls is the most noticeable difference in gameplay you can make--in and of itself.

Also, you're not addressing some of my points, Zeruda. There will be challenges, combat, and puzzles designed specifically for the motor skills you use with motion controls. Imagine playing Duck Hunt with a button controller...no can do. There will be things in this gamed designed with the motor skills you use with the pointer and motion plus controls in mind--it's a different skill set than pushing buttons. So yeah, maybe you could rig a game of baseball so that you played with ping-pong paddles instead of bats, but maybe you couldn't, and in either case it would be a different game.

Another point you're not addressing: as work of art, changing the controls changes the art. When you watch a move you don't get to pick your own sound track or pick your own actors. In a well designed game the pacing and the experience are communicated in part through the controls. The fact that motion controls draw you into the game--make it more immersive--is part of the vision.

Let me summarize my points agian:

1.) From a gameplay standpoint, changing the controls changes the gameplay in a significant way: it makes it a different game. You can play golf with a hockey stick--but then it's no longer golf.

2.) From a "work of art" standpoint, changing the controls changes the art: it damages the creative vision of the designer. It would be no better than letting players choose a different sound track.

3.) There are some things that can be done with motion controls that cannot be done with buttons; there are many things that can be done better with motions than can be done with buttons (the opposite is also true).

 

[Zeruda]

From a gameplay standpoint, changing controls doesn't make a big difference if you keep the option to use motion controls. The movement you put into it will be different, but essentially it's the same. With a choice, everybody can enjoy it.

From a "work of art" standpoint, yeah, it does change the art, but it hardly damages anything if the original control design can be kept in tact through controller choice options. From a "work of art" standpoint, not only would the original artistic vision be kept, but it could be expanded upon through multiple control options.

There may be some things that can be done with buttons and not motions and vice versa, but does that apply for every game? Not really. TP, you can simply flick the Wiimote. Playing it on the GCN really wasn't any different at all save for the fact you don't have to flick your wrist. To me, it was exactly the same, just mirrored and wrist-flicking was swapped with button-pressing. Same game in the end. WMP may make a huge difference, but it's far too early at this point to claim that anything can be done better with motions. None of us have seen gameplay or experienced it for ourselves. They may SAY that the game will heavily rely on motion controls, but you have to remember that Nintendo says a lot of stuff that ends up never happening or being much less than what was expected.

The only difference in experience will be the way you experience things like puzzles, combat, etc. In the end, you're still experiencing the same thing just in a different manner.

So, in conclusion who's going to suffer if a different control option is implemented? Nobody. You'd still be able to utilize motion controls as if controller controls were never implemented, and likewise, others would be able to utilize controller options as if motion controls were never implemented. As CD stated before, it's a win-win situation that nobody really misses out in.

*rubs temples* I'm done with this topic. I think CD has thoroughly explained exactly how it'd be possible without leaving anybody out or messing with anybody's gameplay experiences, and he's pretty crazy smart when it comes to technology (he's majoring in it for pete's sake). I think he's on to something here, and I think Nintendo (and other companies) would do well to take things like this into consideration.

 

[Jupiter]

So, in conclusion who's going to suffer if a different control option is implemented? Nobody. You'd still be able to utilize motion controls as if controller controls were never implemented, and likewise, others would be able to utilize controller options as if motion controls were never implemented. As CD stated before, it's a win-win situation that nobody really misses out in.

*rubs temples* I'm done with this topic. I think CD has thoroughly explained exactly how it'd be possible without leaving anybody out or messing with anybody's gameplay experiences, and he's pretty crazy smart when it comes to technology (he's majoring in it for pete's sake). I think he's on to something here, and I think Nintendo (and other companies) would do well to take things like this into consideration.

Nope.

People who choose the button controls option will suffer, as their squeamishness towards the better but more unusual controls (ya know, the ones the game was actuallydesigned for) will gode them into choosing the inferior version of the game.

People who don't know any better or have not played a lot of games might pick the buttons because it sounds simpler, then will get a poorer experience, which will be bad for Nintendo, and bad for the players.

We players, and Nintendo, all pay through higher development costs. That means less $ for Nintendo and/or higher prices for us.

Potentially, the game itself would be worse if puzzles, combat, and challenges are watered down so that they can work for both motion and button controls. I don't care how computer sciencey Cooldogs is, he is wrong if he thinks the same things can be accomplished either way. There are things that are just not practical or the same with different controls. I find it hard to believe that anyone does not get this.

One last thing, 70 million units of the Wii has been sold. All of the best selling games on the system use motion controls. Sony and Microsoft are launching motion controls systems this year. IT IS NOT A GIMMICK; IT IS NOT A FAD. The appropriate use of motions and buttons is just good game design.

 

[Austin]

It's a fad, without a doubt. Some people simply don't like motion controls, and that doesn't mean we're less advanced or something, it simply means that we don't feel the need to be active in order to play a friggin' video game. There's no need to be so belligerent in your cause.

 

[Jupiter]

It's a fad, without a doubt.

Worldwide sales figures
1. Wii – 70.78 million
2. Xbox 360 – 39 million
3. PlayStation 3 – 33.5 million
...the Wii is the second best selling console of ALL TIME. And may surpass the PS2 eventually.

= Not a fad.

Microsoft Natal and Sony Move to be introduced this year

= Not a fad.

iPhone/iPod touch tilt functions in cell phone games

= Not a fad.

Sorry Charlie, a mix of motion and button controls are here to stay. They won't always be the novelty or the game changer they have been when they were new and fresh in 2006 and 2007, but like the analog control stick and the "rumble pack" they are not going anywhere. All the evidence is on my side.

Some people simply don't like motion controls, and that doesn't mean we're less advanced or something, it simply means that we don't feel the need to be active in order to play a friggin' video game.

Active? Active? Are you serious? I'm pretty sure shaking your wrist to execute a spin in Super Mario Galaxy does not count as being "active"; pointing Samus' arm cannon at Ridley in Metroid Prime 3: Corruption does not count as being "active". This is tiresome to you?

There's no need to be so belligerent in your cause

It seems I have to be pretty forceful and straight forward to deal with some incomplete thinking on this thread. And, being challenging is what makes this fun, don't let your feelings get hurt.

 

[Austin]

Fads are typically determined by the amount of time they last, strong sales do not indicate that it isn't one. The fact that it's popular really only stregthens my opinion. And using the Wiimote to execute every single sword manuever would be considered active, yes. Having a classic controller option would not weaken the game, it'd only make people more interested in it. Nintendo should not try and force people into accepting motion controls, because they aren't universally enjoyed. If you don't want to use them, don't use them.

Also, thinking in ways other than you does not constitute "incomplete" thinking, thank you very much.

 

[Jupiter]

Fads are typically determined by the amount of time they last, strong sales do not indicate that it isn't one. The fact that it's popular really only stregthens my opinion.

Huh? So if it was less popular it would be less likely to be a fad? This is the type of thing I was referring to when I said "incomplete thinking"...I was trying to be nice, instead of using more plain and correct language like: "wrong". By your logic, the better something does the less likely it is to last a long time--I won't use the euphemism this time--that is simply wrong.

How long would motion controls have to be around until you changed your mind that they are not a fad? Let me know, and we'll make a bet on it. Let's set at time and date for you to pay up

I repeat:
-70 million Wiis
-Natal and Sony Move
-iPhone/iPod touch (and soon 3DS)

There is no sign on the horizon that motion controls are going anywhere.

And using the Wiimote to execute every single sword manuever would be considered active, yes.

So playing Twilight Princess was an "active" experience for you?? Like, it was tiring? Really? I mean, we're really talking about minimal expenditures of energy here.

Having a classic controller option would not weaken the game, it'd only make people more interested in it. Nintendo should not try and force people into accepting motion controls, because they aren't universally enjoyed. If you don't want to use them, don't use them.

Well, we disagree and I've been pretty detailed bout why. I understand that it seems like adding an *option* is win-win...but I don't think it is.

Also, thinking in ways other than you does not constitute "incomplete" thinking, thank you very much.

Oh, no, absolutely not. But much of the thinking on display in this thread is pretty short-sighted. I'll call 'em like see 'em.

BTW, in about a day my "reputation" has gone from positive to -22! Thanks all, I'm feeling the love! I'll try to smile and bat my eyelashes more...

 

[badmuffins]

good idea. I like it. I helps handicapped and lazy players! (like me lol)