Why Four Swords Adventures only works in the Child Timeline

[Sheiken]

Of the three timelines that take place after Ocarina of Time, the adult and child timelines have always made the most sense to people. However there is one game that many people felt did not belong where it was placed and just didn't make much sense, and that is Four Swords Adventures. However after playing the game very recently, I have come to the conclusion that this is the only place it CAN make sense.

As I studied all of the story aspects, I can see why people feel it is out of place. Ganon appearing once again despite being killed at the end of Twilight Princess, the Dark Trident that is very similar to Ganon's trident in A Link to the Past, the way the Dark World is handled, and the list goes on. Well lets look at all of the alternatives as to where the game could have taken place and end this debate once and for all.

First we will look at the possibility of a direct sequel to Four Swords. Right away we can rule this out due to the fact that the Ganondorf in Ocarina of Time is the first incarnation of Ganon as stated by the Hyrule Historia. Furthermore Ganon gets sealed in the Four Sword at the end of Four Swords Adventures, and therefore would prevent him from being reincarnated even if this one actually came first.

It is also important to remember that it is IMPOSSIBLE for these two Ganondorf's to be the same person as well. For one, he has already transformed into Ganon through the power of the Dark Trident rather than the Triforce. Sure I guess it would be possible for him to break free and revert back to his human form as seen in Wind Waker, but there is evidence to go against this as well. First off Ganon had a presence in this story and would probably be in the historical records of the Kingdom. Afterall the royal family watches over the Four Sword sanctuary, so I am pretty sure they would know just what they had sealed away. The second piece of evidence is the Gerudo. In Ocarina of Time most of the Gerudo worship Ganondorf and follows his lead. However in Four Swords Adventures they have found peace with Hyrule and despise Ganondorf for entering sacred grounds unauthorized. With this in mind, there is no way they could be the same person.

So what about the Downfall timeline? After all, Ganon has a heavy presence here in his pig form and even uses a trident as his main weapon. Well there are a few issues here as well. First I will state the obvious, there are two Ganondorfs and only one Ganon is present in the Downfall timeline. So which one is the real origin of this Ganon?

It has to be Ganon from Ocarina of Time. Remember Ganon had the full Triforce in the Downfall timeline, but Four Swords Adventures Ganon never obtained the Triforce. To say he broke free of the Four Sword and got it before the events of A Link to the Past is possible I guess, but it would be incredibly sloppy and just a poor fit. Furthermore there is no reference to the Four Sword in this timeline and as I said before, the royal family is well aware of its existence as they watch over it. Had Ganon broken from the Four Sword, I am fairly certain there would be some reference to it.

Now lets look at the Shadow World in Four Swords Adventures. Many would say that this is the Dark World we saw in A Link to the Past, but this is just not possible. Remember the Dark World in A Link to the Past was actually just the Sacred Realm that had been altered by Ganon's influence. Furthermore Link wished everything to return to normal at the end of A Link to the Past with the completed Triforce, so there is no way it can be the same world as the Dark World no longer exists.

No I believe that the Shadow Realm we see in Four Swords Adventures is not so much an alternate reality, but rather a distortion in reality caused by the darkness that has overtaken the land. This explains how normal NPCs are constantly finding themselves in there with little effort on their part. Once everything returns to normal at the end, I believe the distortion also vanishes and the Shadow Realm ceases to exist as well. Also one final note I would like to point out is that at the start of Four Swords Adventures, it is stated that peace was present in Hyrule for a long time. Seeing how the Downfall Timeline is the LEAST peaceful of all of the timelines, I think this pretty much seals it.

I will say the Downfall Timeline makes more sense than the Unified Timeline, but to put it here would just feel incredibly forced overall.

Now the Adult Timeline.........ok I am going to keep this short and sweet.........Hyrule is flooded and a new Hyrule was founded far away from the original Hyrule. This was probably the easiest one to rule out.

So what makes the Child Timeline so special? Well lets start with that reference to peace. While there was the war with the Gerudo and the Hylian Civil War that would have taken place, it is the most peaceful timeline overall. Think about it, the events of Ocarina of Time were undone here so no one would have experienced Ganondorf's dark rule. Majora's Mask took place in an alternate reality and in Twilight Princess, the masses were oblivious to most of the events that took place. Most people had no idea they were even pulled into the Twilight Realm during the first third of the game and Ganondorf was defeated before he had a chance to really do anything to Hyrule. Outside the people who were directly involved, no one had any reason to believe they were not living in peaceful times.

Now lets look at the Gerudo. Many believe that they were wiped out during the Gerudo War, but this was never stated in the game. It seems they were merely driven away to a different region and when [the kindom of Hyrule potentially migrated|http://aminoapps.com/p/gwakrg], the two nations found eachother once more. Furthermore with all the time that had passed, the Gerudo and Hylians were able to make amends with one another, which also supports the whole peace reference at the start of the game. The Gerudo being in a new region would also explain the enshrined Dark Trident that they guarded as they appear to be in a different desert. Finding new relics of power is not unheard of afterall.

And finally this is the only instance where a new Ganondorf makes sense. With the old Ganondorf killed off for good, this left the hatred of Demise free to reincarnate once more. With the game taking place so far after the events of Twilight Princess, there is nothing stopping a new incarnation from seeking ultimate power through other means than the Triforce.

However the one thing that is missing is a direct connection to the other games in the timeline. Well the catch here is that it does not need one as it takes place so far in the future. The established lore of the franchise makes everything possible from the times of peace right down to the return of the Gerudo and a reincarnated Ganondorf. The important thing to remember here is not the connection to other games, but the fact that the Child Timeline actually has nothing to contradict the plot of Four Swords Adventures. Remember, while I believe Nintendo was KIND OF thinking of a timeline after Ocarina of Time, a master timeline was not made until after Skyward Sword. With that in mind, the challenge was to make a timeline that worked rather than one that actually linked every game together.

With that in mind, there is really no better place in the official timeline that they could have placed this game. It works where it is at far better than it could anywhere else, and I am fine with that. It actually makes sense and I wouldn't have it any other way.

What is your opinion on the matter? Has this blog help to shed some light on the subject or do you have anything to add on the matter? Speak your mind in the comments below!

 

[Moblinking5000]

Well, of course it only works in the CT, as that's where it's confirmed to go. I agree with a lot of the reasoning you used, though.

But...

. Remember, while I believe Nintendo was KIND OF thinking of a timeline after Ocarina of Time, a master timeline was not made until after Skyward Sword. With that in mind, the challenge was to make a timeline that worked rather than one that actually linked every game together.

As I said in a previous topic...

AoL was a direct sequel to LoZ, made obvious ingame.
ALttP was a prequel to LoZ, as per the box, and the fact that the backstory went into depth on the origin of Ganon, the Triforce, and the MS.
LA took place after Ganon was defeated by a Link, and the DX siteshows the final battle from ALttP.
OoT was a prequel to ALttP, confirmed by many interviews.
MM is an obvious direct sequel to OoT.
OoX had some allusions to LA, such as the last scene of the linked ending.
FS was at the time the earliest game, as confirmed by Aonuma.
TWW was confirmed to be hundreds of years after OoT by Aonuma, and made obvious in game.
TMC was an obvious prequel to FS.
TP was also confirmed by Aonuma to be hundreds of years after OoT.
PH was an obvious direct sequel to TWW.
ST was 100 years after PH.
SS was the beginning of everything.
ALBW is an obvious sequel to ALttP that takes place a long time after it, as confirmed by Trinen, Aonuma and made obvious ingame.
TFH is a direct sequel to ALBW, confirmed by a NoA tweet and made obvious in an interview and by a NoJ tweet that had the HH plus the 3DS games and where they fit.

 

[magnann]

Well, of course it only works in the CT, as that's where it's confirmed to go. I agree with a lot of the reasoning you used, though.

But...



As I said in a previous topic...

AoL was a direct sequel to LoZ, made obvious ingame.
ALttP was a prequel to LoZ, as per the box, and the fact that the backstory went into depth on the origin of Ganon, the Triforce, and the MS.
LA took place after Ganon was defeated by a Link, and the DX siteshows the final battle from ALttP.
OoT was a prequel to ALttP, confirmed by many interviews.
MM is an obvious direct sequel to OoT.
OoX had some allusions to LA, such as the last scene of the linked ending.
FS was at the time the earliest game, as confirmed by Aonuma.
TWW was confirmed to be hundreds of years after OoT by Aonuma, and made obvious in game.
TMC was an obvious prequel to FS.
TP was also confirmed by Aonuma to be hundreds of years after OoT.
PH was an obvious direct sequel to TWW.
ST was 100 years after PH.
SS was the beginning of everything.
ALBW is an obvious sequel to ALttP that takes place a long time after it, as confirmed by Trinen, Aonuma and made obvious ingame.
TFH is a direct sequel to ALBW, confirmed by a NoA tweet and made obvious in an interview and by a NoJ tweet that had the HH plus the 3DS games and where they fit.

That's not a timeline. It just shows Nintendo thought of how a few games are related. It explains how MM is related to OoT, but not how MM is related to WW, or how WW is related to LoZ. Nintendo had to throw together something that linked every game because they had not come up with it before, since each is a standalone title. Plus the "hero falls" timeline is a lame cop-out since the hero can't die and live simultaneously in parallel timelines in the same universe. That'd require some multiverse level connection in which case the games in that timeline still wouldn't have any connection, and there would be infinite possibilities since the hero can theoretically die at any point in any game, not just OoT.

 

[Hyrulian Hero]

That's not a timeline. It just shows Nintendo thought of how a few games are related. It explains how MM is related to OoT, but not how MM is related to WW, or how WW is related to LoZ. Nintendo had to throw together something that linked every game because they had not come up with it before, since each is a standalone title. Plus the "hero falls" timeline is a lame cop-out since the hero can't die and live simultaneously in parallel timelines in the same universe. That'd require some multiverse level connection in which case the games in that timeline still wouldn't have any connection, and there would be infinite possibilities since the hero can theoretically die at any point in any game, not just OoT.

When Nintendo tried to feed me that tall glass of garbage, I shut up and ate it, all the way up until the last thing you mentioned. I'll even choke down that Link "totally died in Ocarina, guys!" but seriously, Link COULD have died at any time. Link COULD have gotten hammered on Chateau Romani, boiled a Korok in BBQ sauce and children's tears, and swallowed it whole! WHERE THE CRAP IS MY BBQ KOROK TIMELINE??!!

 

[magnann]

Link COULD have gotten hammered on Chateau Romani, boiled a Korok in BBQ sauce and children's tears, and swallowed it whole! WHERE THE CRAP IS MY BBQ KOROK TIMELINE??!!

Damn, Koroks and Chateau Romani in the same game... That's quite the insane-mashed-up-multiverse-backwards-ass-timeline you got there. Thanks Nintendo.

 

[hwrdjacob]

Of the three timelines that take place after Ocarina of Time, the adult and child timelines have always made the most sense to people. However there is one game that many people felt did not belong where it was placed and just didn't make much sense, and that is Four Swords Adventures. However after playing the game very recently, I have come to the conclusion that this is the only place it CAN make sense.

Let me start by saying. You're correct about FSA's placement making logical sense. Let me also say: It isn't the problem.

The problem lies in the absolutely illogical placements of FS and ALttP, which is the source of confusion; FSA isn't the problem but rather those two.

As I studied all of the story aspects, I can see why people feel it is out of place. Ganon appearing once again despite being killed at the end of Twilight Princess, the Dark Trident that is very similar to Ganon's trident in A Link to the Past, the way the Dark World is handled, and the list goes on. Well lets look at all of the alternatives as to where the game could have taken place and end this debate once and for all.

First we will look at the possibility of a direct sequel to Four Swords. Right away we can rule this out due to the fact that the Ganondorf in Ocarina of Time is the first incarnation of Ganon as stated by the Hyrule Historia. Furthermore Ganon gets sealed in the Four Sword at the end of Four Swords Adventures, and therefore would prevent him from being reincarnated even if this one actually came first.

The "Seal preventing Ganon" thing is an incorrect statement and something I'll thoroughly get into when I discuss the Four Sword, but the issue is Twilight Princess for reasons I'll get into below. It IS strongly implied in the english version to be a direct sequel to FS, but perhaps most damningly the Japanese version says it takes place "a year" after Four Swords; making it pretty damn clear this is meant to be the same Link and Zelda if the english translation wasn't clear enough. Rather than pushing FSA backwards before OoT, however, logic dictates it should instead be Four Swords that is pulled forward and taking place after Twilight Princess. The Minish Cap could theoretically take place before OoT, but it takes a bit of mental gymnastics due to the circumstances of the creation of the third Temple of Time and the Triforce's sealing, in addition to the fact the Light Force (just "concentrated Force" in the Japanese version) is blatantly meant to be a replacement Triforce from the Picori/Minish (and the Picori Blade, a replacement Master Sword). TMC is actually much cleaner between TP and FS, although FS is by no means a DIRECT sequel to it (there's clearly at least several hundred years dividing TMC and FS).

It is also important to remember that it is IMPOSSIBLE for these two Ganondorf's to be the same person as well. For one, he has already transformed into Ganon through the power of the Dark Trident rather than the Triforce. Sure I guess it would be possible for him to break free and revert back to his human form as seen in Wind Waker, but there is evidence to go against this as well. First off Ganon had a presence in this story and would probably be in the historical records of the Kingdom. Afterall the royal family watches over the Four Sword sanctuary, so I am pretty sure they would know just what they had sealed away. The second piece of evidence is the Gerudo. In Ocarina of Time most of the Gerudo worship Ganondorf and follows his lead. However in Four Swords Adventures they have found peace with Hyrule and despise Ganondorf for entering sacred grounds unauthorized. With this in mind, there is no way they could be the same person.

Yes, it's impossible for FSA Ganondorf to be OoT Ganondorf.

But the exact same can be said for OoT Ganondorf and ALttP Ganondorf. In fact, FSA Ganon's backstory aligns MUCH more closely with that of ALttP Ganon as told in ALBW and ALttP than OoT Ganon does, and the circumstances of the Imprisoning War (Note: FSA is NOT the Imprisoning War, merely a precursor to it) fit as being after FSA, whereas there's a lot of contradictions with OoT's ending even if we accept Link died. ALttP doesn't even directly state the Triforce made him Ganon, only saying the Triforce made Ganon the Demon King (note: it says it made GANON, not Ganondorf, the Demon King), which leaves the door wide open for FSA. In fact, ALttP says he was known as simply Ganon for years, with hardly anyone calling him Ganondorf, something that seems to thoroughly not be the case in OoT's child era.

A strong piece of evidence for this in particular is that while in EVERY 2D game, Ganon is known firmly as the "Demon King" in Japan, the Japanese FSA is the only game in the series where he's called "King of Darkness" as opposed to Demon King. The takeaway is that he ascended from King of Darkness to King of Demons with the Triforce.

So what about the Downfall timeline? After all, Ganon has a heavy presence here in his pig form and even uses a trident as his main weapon. Well there are a few issues here as well. First I will state the obvious, there are two Ganondorfs and only one Ganon is present in the Downfall timeline. So which one is the real origin of this Ganon?

It has to be Ganon from Ocarina of Time. Remember Ganon had the full Triforce in the Downfall timeline, but Four Swords Adventures Ganon never obtained the Triforce. To say he broke free of the Four Sword and got it before the events of A Link to the Past is possible I guess, but it would be incredibly sloppy and just a poor fit. Furthermore there is no reference to the Four Sword in this timeline and as I said before, the royal family is well aware of its existence as they watch over it. Had Ganon broken from the Four Sword, I am fairly certain there would be some reference to it.

The big elephant in the room here- there IS a retroactive reference to the Four Sword in ALttP. In fact, the GBA version of ALttP seems to show the Four Sword being destroyed by Link now that I did a double take (Why? who knows, but it vanishes entirely after Link obtains the shards and he holds up what is the Master Sword, not the Four Sword). The Four Sword is Shattered and in the possession of Ganon in ALttP GBA. Let me reiterate, Shattered. Into Four Pieces. And these four pieces are actually foreshadowed in the final image of Minish Cap's credits. ALttP Ganon, as well as his backstory, have way too many contradictions to OoT, even if we discount ALttP, cry "retcon!!!", and go by ALBW. By contrast, ALBW only strengthens the connection to FSA with it's particular choice of words in both language versions.

Over the course of TMC, FS, and FSA, the Four Sword goes from being a mighty artifact capable of firing sword beams on command and creating completely obedient clones, to creating potentially insolent copies and only firing one type of sword beam, and only at full health, in addition to failing to maintain Vaati's seal, to not even being able to hold a damn charge of sacred power for longer than a few minutes, having to constantly be recharged with Force Gems.

Do you really think that rotted away piece of crap is going to hold Ganon and the Trident for very long? When it couldn't even hold Vaati indefinitely in a stronger state?

The question then becomes if the sages' seal around it will hold (Yes, the Shrine Maidens are clearly intended to be that era's sages, much like the ALttP maidens and how ALBW describes them in the Japanese versions. Their colors even match too, with the exceptions being Light going from yellow to white and spirit from orange to yellow). And based on what Wind Waker shows us, the answer is sadly a loud and resounding "No". It'll hold for quite a while, but not for eternity; hence the Imprisoning War likely kicks off a few hundred or so years after FSA's ending. And that is when Ganon acquires the Four Sword shards (after he himself shatters it).

Speaking of incredibly sloppy and a poor fit, ALttP states Ganon murdered every single one of his followers before touching the Triforce.

There goes most of the Gerudo appearing in OoT's future, then, since he's king of the gerudo.

Now lets look at the Shadow World in Four Swords Adventures. Many would say that this is the Dark World we saw in A Link to the Past, but this is just not possible. Remember the Dark World in A Link to the Past was actually just the Sacred Realm that had been altered by Ganon's influence. Furthermore Link wished everything to return to normal at the end of A Link to the Past with the completed Triforce, so there is no way it can be the same world as the Dark World no longer exists.

Agreed. I instead believe the "Dark World" in FSA is the same dimension the Dark Tribe was sealed away in (Zelda has no shortage of alternate dimensions) and Ganon would have gained access to it (as well as the Trident, which seems to be Ghirahim reforged into a Trident looking at the series as a whole) when he obtained the Dark Mirror to create Shadow Links. It would also raise the fridge logic that Ganon would've had the Triforce in FSA, even though the Japanese text and Ganon's actions (which seem to be almost entirely misdirection) actually heavily implies he seeks the Triforce.

I will say the Downfall Timeline makes more sense than the Unified Timeline, but to put it here would just feel incredibly forced overall.

The DT in general is incredibly forced, and more humorously, ignored entirely by ALBW's plot (which goes so far as to imply OoT's events didn't happen). It's even starting to look more and more like BotW was written with the originally intended timeline in mind (which puts FSA before what is currently the DT)

So what makes the Child Timeline so special? Well lets start with that reference to peace. While there was the war with the Gerudo and the Hylian Civil War that would have taken place, it is the most peaceful timeline overall. Think about it, the events of Ocarina of Time were undone here so no one would have experienced Ganondorf's dark rule. Majora's Mask took place in an alternate reality and in Twilight Princess, the masses were oblivious to most of the events that took place. Most people had no idea they were even pulled into the Twilight Realm during the first third of the game and Ganondorf was defeated before he had a chance to really do anything to Hyrule. Outside the people who were directly involved, no one had any reason to believe they were not living in peaceful times.

Incorrect. The Hyruleans in TP were painfully aware something was wrong. This is evident in multiple ways- first, the Hylian Resistance. If they believed there was peace in Hyrule, what in the hell are they Resisting? And this name comes from developer notes made during TP's development too, so we can't say HH was wrong (which we can with a lot of really dumb assertions made about FSA and several other games, like the implication the Dark Mirror is the Mirror of Twilight). Second, they saw Hyrule Castle f***ing assaulted and set on fire. SAW it. True, they didn't know about the Twilight covering Hyrule, but Hyrule Castle falling to Zant is something everyone and their mother saw with their own two eyes. Not to mention, the Hylian Soldiers are piss-in-pants scared of something, not to mention several people note that the monster presence is unnaturally high. Thelma even says "What's the world come to, monsters running in the streets?" implying the world is far from "Peaceful" during TP. The presence of a "Resistance", along with the fact they assault Hyrule Castle without any warning or request from Link, seems to indicate Hyrule is in a similar state to OoT's future during TP.

Now lets look at the Gerudo. Many believe that they were wiped out during the Gerudo War, but this was never stated in the game. It seems they were merely driven away to a different region and when [the kindom of Hyrule potentially migrated|http://aminoapps.com/p/gwakrg], the two nations found eachother once more. Furthermore with all the time that had passed, the Gerudo and Hylians were able to make amends with one another, which also supports the whole peace reference at the start of the game. The Gerudo being in a new region would also explain the enshrined Dark Trident that they guarded as they appear to be in a different desert. Finding new relics of power is not unheard of afterall.

I believe the Trident has to do with Twinrova, but that's an entirely different theory for another post. Also, it's painfully clear Thelma is an assimilated Gerudo in TP, so the Gerudo seem to have ALMOST been wiped out; but there's quite possibly enough for repopulation. Supported by the fact the Gerudo seem to be allied with the Hylians in FSA, contrary to their stance in OoT. They were basically genocided into submission.

However the one thing that is missing is a direct connection to the other games in the timeline. Well the catch here is that it does not need one as it takes place so far in the future. The established lore of the franchise makes everything possible from the times of peace right down to the return of the Gerudo and a reincarnated Ganondorf. The important thing to remember here is not the connection to other games, but the fact that the Child Timeline actually has nothing to contradict the plot of Four Swords Adventures. Remember, while I believe Nintendo was KIND OF thinking of a timeline after Ocarina of Time, a master timeline was not made until after Skyward Sword. With that in mind, the challenge was to make a timeline that worked rather than one that actually linked every game together.

It's pretty clear they were making a timeline, especially in the Japanese releases, and FSA itself ironically helps proves this point; as every game had blatant aspects and connections to other games. As a wise man once told me, "every game is a direct sequel or prequel to another one in this series". A statement that doesn't cover TFH, and only technically covers TMC, but a true one nonetheless.

The key here is they used really, really exact words (unusual in the Japanese language from what I've seen, I might add) saying OoT was a "version" of the Imprisoning War back in 1997 and 98; something that flew past translators of those interviews due to OoT superficially resembling the IW. But saying OoT is the Imprisoning War, or even leads into it, results in something akin to a "the longer you look at this image, the worse it gets" because you end up seeing more and more contradictions, most prominently with Ganondorf.

Why did they end OoT with Link going back and the strong implication he undoes everything? Why END with that if the Adult era was meant to happen the way it was when the game was first made, as opposed to a more ALttP esque ending where he returns the Master Sword and then the future he saved is shown?

The keyword of "version" implies to me that OoT was never intended to be the actual Imprisoning War, but an alternate timeline where Ganondorf found the Sacred Realm earlier than he did (thus being a technically different Ganondorf in the same way WW and TP Ganondorf are), and eventually FSA and TP made it clear OoT and ALttP didn't have the same Ganondorf at all. The issue here is it's impossible for ALttP and it's sequels to take place after OoT's future era, even discounting any game released past 1998, due to NUMEROUS aspects of the ALttP Ganondorf's history that is shown in both ALttP and more damningly ALBW. Which results in ALttP being a Child Timeline game logically, and it seems that, paying attention to development and status of the series circa 2001, it was always the intention to have OoT be "erased"; meaning the CT isn't an afterthought like some people believe, but instead the Adult Timeline that is an afterthought.

This also, ironically, explains Mido town, which perplexes many people to this day.

The only way they could explain OoT's contradictions to ALttP is to make a few games explaining how Ganon obtained a balance of Power/Wisdom/Courage, why all of Hyrule despised him as a murder and thief long before he killed Hyrule's King and got the ToP, how he murdered all of his followers before obtaining the Triforce yet the Gerudo still exist in OoT's adult era, why he's explicitly stated to simply not know how to leave the Sacred Realm (implicitly because he didn't know how he got in, like all the other saps he draws in) and so on.

The problem here is they've already done that. Those games are TP and FSA. And the explaination is ALttP doesn't (directly) have a damn thing to do with OoT.