Breath of the Wild When are you ok with the game ‘taking over’, such as cutscenes, linear narrative, many gated areas?

[Dogzilla]

It seems botw was a virtually all open. Aside from the opening shrines, the narrative-gated divine beasts, you could go anywhere and do anything, only sometimes deterred by the ‘beefgating’ of enemies too tough for your current level. In contrast, a game like Skyward Sword had lots of ‘taking over’ by the game, with notorious example such as your helper Fi, who constantly interrupted with tips.

What balance of freedom/takeover is your ideal and why?

 

[Dizzi]

Fi from the wrong game shes in skyward sword....midnas in twilight princess...

 

[Chevywolf30]

That's a good one. It depends on the game really. If it does linearity and storytelling well, like Twilight Princess, I can enjoy that. But I'm also enjoying the openness and freedom BotW offers. The tradeoff is that you lose storytelling value with such openness and freedom.

a game like twilight princess had lots of ‘taking over’ by the game, with notorious example such as your helper Fi,

Get your facts straight.

 

[Link&Midna]

Get your facts straight.

They said "like" for a reason, to show examples of 2 different games at once by mentioning both TP and Fi. They weren't saying Fi is from TP

 

[Chevywolf30]

They said "like" for a reason, to show examples of 2 different games at once by mentioning both TP and Fi. They weren't saying Fi is from TP

I know, but it still bugs me.

 

[Dogzilla]

Fi from the wrong game shes in skyward sword....midnas in twilight princess...

Thanks. Amended.

 

[Mikey the Moblin]

a lot of people seem to have this conception that linearity is strictly worse than nonlinearity (see Mark Brown's "Boss Keys" youtube series... or don't because they're pretty flawed conceptually)
linear and nonlinear progression both have their advantages and disadvantages, which I touched on in my "What's So Great About BOTW?" blog. Knowing those differences, a good dev will step in when necessary to keep momentum going and keep the player feeling like they're progressing. I think an example of this done badly is Death Stranding, where the opening gameplay is constantly interrupted by 20+ minute cutscenes. There are a few moments where zelda in particular (not just skyward sword, though people love to rag on it for no real reason) will have camera movements or the helper character point out something totally obvious, and breaking the flow of gameplay in the process. It's pretty minor though so I'm okay with it when it happens (not just in skyward sword, but twilight princess and oot as well)
Dark Souls does this really well, as the most significant moments will lead to smooth transitions between gameplay and cutscenes, and the cutscenes are always really fun to watch without getting too long, but not all bosses even have introductory cutscenes, so the flow of gameplay in dark souls games are very good

 

[Uwu_Oocoo2]

It depends really on the size, consistency, and purpose of an interruption. Consider Fi, for example. Her tidbits were relatively short, but they occurred so often and were so pointless it made them aggravating after a while. And in this same way cutscenes, even if they are important to the story, happen too often and last way to long when they occur, can become frustrating. Any interruption should be fine in at LEAST two of these areas for it to be okay. If Fi only told you about an item once and her interruptions were short, it would be acceptable even though they're still pointless.

 

[Mikey the Moblin]

It depends really on the size, consistency, and purpose of an interruption. Consider Fi, for example. Her tidbits were relatively short, but they occurred so often and were so pointless it made them aggravating after a while. And in this same way cutscenes, even if they are important to the story, happen too often and last way to long when they occur, can become frustrating. Any interruption should be fine in at LEAST two of these areas for it to be okay. If Fi only told you about an item once and her interruptions were short, it would be acceptable even though they're still pointless.

Skyward sword also has the "you have 39 of these, let's learn about it again" that I haven't had to deal with since I've left the wii u running for a month straight now

 

[Dogzilla]

a lot of people seem to have this conception that linearity is strictly worse than nonlinearity (see Mark Brown's "Boss Keys" youtube series... or don't because they're pretty flawed conceptually)
linear and nonlinear progression both have their advantages and disadvantages, which I touched on in my "What's So Great About BOTW?" blog. Knowing those differences, a good dev will step in when necessary to keep momentum going and keep the player feeling like they're progressing. I think an example of this done badly is Death Stranding, where the opening gameplay is constantly interrupted by 20+ minute cutscenes. There are a few moments where zelda in particular (not just skyward sword, though people love to rag on it for no real reason) will have camera movements or the helper character point out something totally obvious, and breaking the flow of gameplay in the process. It's pretty minor though so I'm okay with it when it happens (not just in skyward sword, but twilight princess and oot as well)
Dark Souls does this really well, as the most significant moments will lead to smooth transitions between gameplay and cutscenes, and the cutscenes are always really fun to watch without getting too long, but not all bosses even have introductory cutscenes, so the flow of gameplay in dark souls games are very good

I agree that Dark Souls is generally very smooth on this front. It’s the model for my own game, and part of the reason I ask. Not too many cutscenes in it, and all of which make for exciting transitions in progress. I even like the little things like not locking the player in place during dialogue, except for DS2’s important moments such as kneeling to the emerald herald while she upgrades your stats. However, DS has very few dialogues, making it more action that rpg, so I wonder if it would still be as smooth if there were towns full of npcs.

By the way, what conceptual flaws are you thinking of in regards to Boss Keys?

 

[Mikey the Moblin]

By the way, what conceptual flaws are you thinking of in regards to Boss Keys?

when mark analyzes the dungeons, he comes into it with a clear bias/personal preference for specific styles of dungeons. Toward the end of the series, he acknowledges this and his analyses get better, but afaik he never went back and fixed his analyses of earlier dungeons. For example, he "awarded massive points" (for lack of a better term) for a dungeon that required backtracking, and "took away points" for shortcuts that replaced instances of backtracking. It was just really obvious that he was putting personal preference into things at first

 

[Dogzilla]

when mark analyzes the dungeons, he comes into it with a clear bias/personal preference for specific styles of dungeons. Toward the end of the series, he acknowledges this and his analyses get better, but afaik he never went back and fixed his analyses of earlier dungeons. For example, he "awarded massive points" (for lack of a better term) for a dungeon that required backtracking, and "took away points" for shortcuts that replaced instances of backtracking. It was just really obvious that he was putting personal preference into things at first

Yeh, I can understand that criticism about bias/preference. I do seem to remember him acknowledging that though, especially on his love of puzzle-box dungeons. Regarding the shortcut/backtracking point, you're referring the Wind Waker temple example, I think? Yes, it could either way on that, like Dark Souls giving you shortcuts is a huge relief, but I can also understand that testing your memory of routes can be done through backtracking.

 

[GZ Zelda]

All cutscenes should be interactive, or at least maintain the format of the game world. The cutscenes that activate when you, for example, find Yunobo in the cave or meet Riju for the first time are inconvenient and clunky and should be incorporated into standard gameplay.

Tips should be optional always and never interrupt gameplay. Even Zelda randomly screaming at you from the castle on the Great Plateau is too great an interruption for me.

 

[Shrimpdragon]

The game has to save and does that unobtrusively but warping between Shrines annoys me, it takes an age and you have to press A to get it moving quicker.
I don’t appreciate Zelda shouting to Link every now & again, and some of the dialogue is so slow and unnecessary it makes my fingers itch, I just want to get on and play!

 

[Bowsette Plus-Ultra]

Linearity can be a huge damper depending on the sort of game it's in. When something like Zelda professes to be a big fantasy adventure but traps you through extreme gated progression, linearity, and a companion who refuses to shut up, those things are bad. Cutscenes I tend to be more forgiving of, but when used sparingly. Unless it's something hyper linear like any of the Telltale games, player interaction should be the focus.