General Zelda What Story Element Are You Least Forgiving Of?

[SpiritGerudo]

It was sort of the same with tp, these games revolve around Link's "sidekick" not him.

But at least in TP, the story actually had a motive. Midna was an actual character who you did stuff for because she forced you to do it for her to help you. Link did stuff for her because it was part of the story. In TWW, there was just this random talking boat with no character until the very end (and barely even there) who just told you to do stuff with an extremely loosely connected reason to the plot (that he didn't even freaking tell you until you finished what you had to do for him) and you did it because the game doesn't let you do anything else.

 

[Ventus]

But he doesn't need to beat Ganondorf to save his sister...

Turn it around, Daphnes realizes that saving Aryll goes hand in hand with beating Ganondorf; it shows the King has some heart even though he truthfully only cares about Hyrule. He can make room for trivial secondary objectives if they're right next to the main ones, in other words.

 

[Shadsie]

Mine is general, throughout the series... my nitpick...

Why does Zelda always have to be in alter-ego form to kick tail?

Okay, not always... she did assist in the bringing down of Ganondorf in Twilight Princess as herself, but that was at the very end of the game after she played the classic damsel in distress role through the entire game (including dying and having her spirit held in Midna or whatever that was that was going on).

The rest of the time... she assists Link as: Shiek (ambiguous gendered person who didn't actually help much, s/he only taught you songs), Tetra (a badass pirate captain who winds up loosing her badassery as soon as she's given the pink dress and winds up sealed in a palace basement) and as her own ghost in Spirit Tracks (Zelda could become a kick-booty Phantom, but only when she was in spirit-form and posessing the things). And... Hylia - as a FRIGGIN' GODDESS Zelda took the "powerless" route (sealing herself up to keep Demise/The Imprisoned at bay, but also making herself a potential tasty-snack if you didn't drive the Imprisoned back into his hole in the ground).

I think Zelda can do more than that.

I understand that The Legend of Zelda runs along the traditional fairytale route of "save the princess" but... it seems like the little bits of attempted feminism we see in the modern games meant to try to keep up with the times fall short. I'd like to see Hyrule's princess - or better yet, EMPRESS, *actually* help Link as an equal at some point and to be able to do it *as herself.*

 

[SpiritGerudo]

But at that point in the story its irrelevant because he should want to kill Ganondorf after he has saved his sister. He realizes Ganondorf is trying to rule the world and realizes he's the only one who can stop it. I agree with you to an extent but you make it seem like you wanted Link to go home after he got the Master Sword and saved his sister.

Can't say I very well agree with this. Of course, The King of Red Lions does seem a little bossy, but thats what you have to expect when Link is a mute, basically. However, he doesn't really ever force Link into doing anything for him. At first he warns Link that he can't beat Ganon and save his sister until they get the Master Sword. Which is all of part 1. None of this is "because I tell you to". In fact, there never seems to be an actual point of which the King of Red Lions makes Link do anything for him. After you rescue Ariel ((I think)), you already are close to Tetra/Zelda and so as a character, want to help her. Of course the King has a secondary agenda, he seems to take Link's into account as well.

If I'm remembering correctly (and I might not be), the King of Red Lions didn't tell you that you need to get the Master Sword to save your sister. He just told you to find some pearl things to kill Ganon. Most of what you are doing is going on the faith that this boat guy knows what he's doing and is trying to help you. It isn't until after you get that Master Sword that you find out that this is what you were working towards all along (again, I might be wrong about that, I don't remember that first conversation very well). So you do what he tells you to do, because you know it will help save your sister. And then you save your sister. All of the reasons for doing what your are doing drop out from under you. The goal was to kill Ganon to save your sister. Now the goal is to kill Ganon to . . . according to the King of Red Lions, to save the world. The world hasn't been affected in any way, he's just hanging out in the Forbidden Fortress. Yes, he should want to help Tetra/Zelda, but she isn't even in any immediate danger until the very end. She find out that she's a princess's descendant, and exits the story until she's needed again. In the meantime, you are doing what the King of Red Lions tells you to do under the impression that she is safe. There's nobody affected by Ganon, so Link's motive for working against Ganon remains "because a talking boat told be he'll destroy the world if I don't".

As you note, saving your sister is all of part one. It takes up so much of the story that transitioning from one story to a completely separate so far into the game leaves little time to give the Ganon story much backstory at all. As a result of that, the whole thing seems kind of trivial and meaningless to me. There are so few connections between Ganon and the plot and so many between Aryll and the plot that the transition becomes awkward, abrupt, and completely guided the King of Red Lions. After you rescue your sister, you're basically at his mercy as to what to do next. Saving your sister was your drive and afterward there's nothing to do except go after a threat that didn't even do anything until you're already there. I guess what I'm really bashing on here is Ganon's lack of involvement in the story, and how because of this, the King of Red Lions has to guide your actions rather than them be driven by a real reason other than "kill him so he doesn't kill me".

 

[DarkestLink]

With tWW Link, he only needed to rush his sister out of there. He didn't need to beat Ganondorf. The world would have been put in less danger if he hadn't tried considering it was HIM who practically hand delivered the Triforce of Courage to Ganondorf.

TP Link did it to save his friends. He HAD to do as Midna said or she wouldn't help him. And likewise she HAD to help him clear the twilight or he wouldn't (and couldn't) get the fused shadows. And by the time Link's friends are all saved, Midna has him in her clutches, telling him that if he doesn't help her, the whole things going to happen all over again anyway.

 

[The Jade Fist]

But at that point in the story its irrelevant because he should want to kill Ganondorf after he has saved his sister. He realizes Ganondorf is trying to rule the world and realizes he's the only one who can stop it. I agree with you to an extent but you make it seem like you wanted Link to go home after he got the Master Sword and saved his sister.

Why not join Ganon at that point? Its like ya man you messed with my sister thats not cool , but you do wanna get rid of this ocean. And I've seen whats under it, and it looks alot better then a world where 20 people on a single island is considered highly populated.

I know i can't be the only one who thought about that.

This Ganon was also the most developed character he's ever been, He had what seamed like a real level of regret and slightly more humble then he once was. He even said he was trying to find the girl with the triforce. He needed it to get rid of the ocean.

Ganon's reaction to Link in this game wasn't so much a hatred, it was like, "oh not this again, do I have to?" Not, must kill mame murder control. He was really the least evil Ganon has ever been.

Lol its actually what i hate about TWW story the most, is after everything that happens, the King makes the worst wish ever, when I could have saved the world by joining up with Ganon rather then dooming it. I mean King of Red Lions was the bad guy.

Who knows when Red Lions was the King of Hyrule, perhaps his foreign policies were less then neighborly. Maybe HE antagonized Ganon in the first place. Thats right i'm blaming him. He probably believed by some divine right, all the peoples in the land had to bow down to him. Ganon would have been a nice little Warlord, raping and pillaging in peace, but NOOO, Red Lion had to go and mess it up.

 

[Beauts]

I knew when I saw this that it would turn into yet another opportunity for everybody to bash Skyward Sword.

I liked that game so I'm gonna leave it.

On the subject of story plots, FS and MC have the worst plots in the whole wide world.

But to be honest, the most annoying element of story-telling for me within Zelda is probably simply the way Link just meets random people and does what they tell him to. OoT is probably the worst offender of these in my opinion, despite the fact it's my favourite game and it's plot is almost flawless... However, I don't really understand why he listens to some people or why he even trusts them. Aside from the Great Deku Tree, who is pretty much Link's father figure and thus it makes sense...

1) Zelda is basically just a kid like Link. I know the Deku Tree says to go to her, but why would Link really go and risk his life for some little girl who had some funky dreams? So what if she's a princess? I live in England but if Princess Beatrice or someone told me to go and put my neck on the line for a couple of stones because she doesn't want to listen to what her dad tells her (that Ganondorf is trustworthy) I wouldn't do it

2) Sheik. He/she (I'm not here to debate this particular point) just randomly appears. Literally, appears. He/she says some random poetic sounding lines, and Link just listens to what Sheik says. I don't see why, pre-Ice Cavern, when Sheik saves Ruto, Link would assume Sheik is good and should be listened to

3) Any Sage other than Saria. Saria is Link's best friend so it's kind of a duh that he would go and save her and listen to her advice. However, Darunia is pretty rude to Link yet Link goes and fights a giant firebreathing lizard type thing for him and his people. Ruto is a cow, demanding to be carried everywhere and getting herself swallowed- oh and she then basically decides for you that you are going to marry her and you don't get a say in it. U ok Link? Impa... I mean, I love Impa, but again there is no real evidence until you go to the village and hear people talk about her that she is this nice person who should be trusted. But Link takes her word before you chronologically go to Kakariko that Zelda should be believed. Last but definitely not least, Nabooru. She tells him to go and steal stuff for her. I know she says she's against Ganondorf but Link sees no proof of this, and even if he did, no normal person would just do what she said.

4) Okay it's possible Link is just nice, but to me he seems like a pushover.

So yeah, I think the story has a little to be desired in this area.

 

[Random Person]

I'm least forgiving of SS's story transgressions problems mainly because I disagree with a lot of the other ones and this is the one I think is a legit problem throughout the game. It is indeed filler and it does feel like it doesn't need to be there. Not much more to say.

I understand that you can't make an amazing story spread across an XXX hour game, but at the very least give us some miniquests or some isolated plots.

Oh, you'd be surprised at how many very lengthy games do this successfully. In this regard to SS, it wasn't that it didn't have enough side content, but that it's major content felt unnecessary and redundant.

 

[Salem]

Major Spoilers lay ahead.

Time travel not making any sense and ruining the game. Time travel is hard to do, so why do people do it so often in games and other media? It rarely contributes to the gameplay or story in any particularly good way, and it leads to plot holes, inconsistencies, and a whole big mess for fans to figure out. I wouldn't mind so much if it wasn't so prevalent. Why was it done in SS? They've just created unnecessary problems in places where a one-night rewrite could have easily fixed the story without time travel. The Time-shift stones, on a side note, aren't much a problem for me. They provide fun gameplay without really messing up any timelines.

MM is an example of Time Travel done right. Link's travels constantly reset the entire world, so the plot holes are pretty few. The only things not affected by Time Travel are Link (whose travelling), some of his items (a simple gameplay necessity), and the magical masks and owl. The time travel enhances the story and gameplay, and the its nice to be able to do key story events as many times as you want. Its good for completionists. The game also has a satisfying ending. All story points converge and you are left with one nice timeline.

OoT creates plenty of issues. The relationship between the two worlds and the resulting triple timeline is an abomination of plot holes and confusing ideas. It's a great game, probably the best, but I feel like the travel back to the child time created way too many plot holes and was only needed for one instance which could have easily been taken out. It doesn't really hold back the game, but it was completely unnecessary. Don't even get me started on what Nintendo did with it when creating the timeline. It's a mess.

I know of like two games to pull off time travel and nail it: MM and Fire Emblem: Awakening. You've then got all those games things that fail at it- Sonic 06, SS, OoT, and so on. I'm just tired of it. It's lazy, confusing, and irratating all around.

reason they had time traveling in oot is because they wanted to have both young link and adult link in the game, Miyamoto wanted child link but one of the designers(I forgot who) wanted adult link so they had to put both.

In short, the reason time travelling is confusing is because they needed it to be for gameplay reasons and stuff:S

 

[nsanesk8er16]

skyward sword and the two ds titles for taking away good overworld mechanics and throwing exploration out the door. zelda was the original nonlinear game and i wish it would keep moving in that direction instead of moving backward or recycling old material. the reason i loved skyrim so much was that i could do anything within its world and was not limited in any way.

 

[Skittles]

If I'm remembering correctly (and I might not be), the King of Red Lions didn't tell you that you need to get the Master Sword to save your sister. He just told you to find some pearl things to kill Ganon. Most of what you are doing is going on the faith that this boat guy knows what he's doing and is trying to help you. It isn't until after you get that Master Sword that you find out that this is what you were working towards all along (again, I might be wrong about that, I don't remember that first conversation very well). So you do what he tells you to do, because you know it will help save your sister. And then you save your sister. All of the reasons for doing what your are doing drop out from under you. The goal was to kill Ganon to save your sister. Now the goal is to kill Ganon to . . . according to the King of Red Lions, to save the world. The world hasn't been affected in any way, he's just hanging out in the Forbidden Fortress. Yes, he should want to help Tetra/Zelda, but she isn't even in any immediate danger until the very end. She find out that she's a princess's descendant, and exits the story until she's needed again. In the meantime, you are doing what the King of Red Lions tells you to do under the impression that she is safe. There's nobody affected by Ganon, so Link's motive for working against Ganon remains "because a talking boat told be he'll destroy the world if I don't".

As you note, saving your sister is all of part one. It takes up so much of the story that transitioning from one story to a completely separate so far into the game leaves little time to give the Ganon story much backstory at all. As a result of that, the whole thing seems kind of trivial and meaningless to me. There are so few connections between Ganon and the plot and so many between Aryll and the plot that the transition becomes awkward, abrupt, and completely guided the King of Red Lions. After you rescue your sister, you're basically at his mercy as to what to do next. Saving your sister was your drive and afterward there's nothing to do except go after a threat that didn't even do anything until you're already there. I guess what I'm really bashing on here is Ganon's lack of involvement in the story, and how because of this, the King of Red Lions has to guide your actions rather than them be driven by a real reason other than "kill him so he doesn't kill me".

You forget WHY Ganon kidnapped Link sisters. He kidnapped her because she had pointy ears and he was looking for a girl with pointy ears. Why? Because he was looking for Zelda and when Link realize (by the King showing him) that his friend Tetra (who really did care about his sister) was in trouble because Ganon (the guy who kidnapped his sister) wanted her which you see in the fight against Ganon after you found out the Master Sword was useless. Link wanted to, at first, kill Ganon because if Link didn't he might try and kidnap his sister again and Link could not let happen. He has chronic heroing syndrome. It's a central part of Link's character. I think that some of the problem with WW is that's it's a little subtle in it's story telling, if you're paying attention at the right movements, you mess something...

Now, onto what I don't like...subtle story telling. Sometimes I wish the games were a little deeper in this area. I love the WW, but sometimes I want more story than what I get. That's probably my biggest problem with the series...

 

[Spirit]

I'm least forgiving on PH's storyline, particularly the ending and the characterisation throughout. I HATE characters with amnesia and our companion fairy had it, i'm so bored of the Linebeck/Groose archetype and we had Linebeck in spades in this game. We also don't know what Bellum is until it turns up at the very end, and after all of that adventuring we were only gone ten minutes and everything has meant nothing. I'm fine with LA all being a dream because at least it had some pretty grand ideas like the world ceasing to exist if the Windfish woke up which was a good way to give a gravity to a world that wasn't real with Link waking up, but PH was just a mess, the whole game was a mess from gameplay concepts and design to the stroyline, wish it didn't exist really, it gives nothing to the mythology and drag the adult timeline down.

 

[SpiritGerudo]

You forget WHY Ganon kidnapped Link sisters. He kidnapped her because she had pointy ears and he was looking for a girl with pointy ears. Why? Because he was looking for Zelda and when Link realize (by the King showing him) that his friend Tetra (who really did care about his sister) was in trouble because Ganon (the guy who kidnapped his sister) wanted her which you see in the fight against Ganon after you found out the Master Sword was useless. Link wanted to, at first, kill Ganon because if Link didn't he might try and kidnap his sister again and Link could not let happen. He has chronic heroing syndrome. It's a central part of Link's character. I think that some of the problem with WW is that's it's a little subtle in it's story telling, if you're paying attention at the right movements, you mess something...

Now, onto what I don't like...subtle story telling. Sometimes I wish the games were a little deeper in this area. I love the WW, but sometimes I want more story than what I get. That's probably my biggest problem with the series...

Oh pssh how could I forget that we already knew that Ganon was looking for Zelda? Okay, TWW's story gets a little more credit. And while "subtle" isn't exactly the word I'd use, I agree that even if the lousy story of TWW is justified, it wasn't very deep and wasn't told very well. I've said before that I think that the games try to mold their stories into the same story already created by the gameplay, and TWW definitely epitomizes this idea.