General Zelda Veteran Mode?

[AncientPoe]

So I've been thinking about this for a while, and I'd like some input on the idea.

How would people like to see a Veteran Mode? This would differ from Hero Mode, which is usually a secondary mode enabled by beating the game meant to give people on a second playthrough a bit more challenge. But Veteran Mode would be for a first time run. It's a bit less brutal than Hero Mode. Possibly something like making enemies do 1.5 times the damage instead of 2 times the damage, and making some visual cues for puzzles a touch less obvious. There've been a few Zelda games that have felt too easy, I feel. For instance, when I played Twilight Princess the first time, I finished the game with the first Fairy I ever picked up still trapped in its bottle, and only one dungeon ever had me near death (the Mansion). Is this something you'd like to see implemented in a game? How would you change it?

 

[Octorokstar]

Personally, Hero Mode is pretty cheap. At least in Master Quests or Second Quest, they mix up the map. I think what Nintendo really needs to do is mix up the puzzles as well and make them more difficult.

 

[Dio]

Hero mode is not that brutal, veteran mode seems like a waste of time. Legendary hero mode would be good, 4 times the damage, enemies are more intelligent, no fairies...

 

[AncientPoe]

Hero mode is not that brutal, veteran mode seems like a waste of time. Legendary hero mode would be good, 4 times the damage, enemies are more intelligent, no fairies...

The point of Veteran Mode would be a game mode that treats you like you have a brain the first time you play through it, giving you more of a challenge. As it is now, Hero Mode just keeps the same level of challenge as the first play through but with emphasis in a different area (surviving combat as you work your way through the solutions of puzzles you already know, since most Hero Modes require beating the game to unlock them).

 

[Mido]

The point of Veteran Mode would be a game mode that treats you like you have a brain the first time you play through it, giving you more of a challenge. As it is now, Hero Mode just keeps the same level of challenge as the first play through but with emphasis in a different area (surviving combat as you work your way through the solutions of puzzles you already know, since most Hero Modes require beating the game to unlock them).

I think that the concept of Veteran Mode may just work best as the default setting of difficulty. Older Zelda games seem to emulate similar ideas with their base difficulty. Still, this also begs the question of perhaps implementing a full-fledged difficulty system. Using your concept of Veteran Mode, it sounds like the intermediate difficulty. An easier difficulty (Working name: Novice?) simply would lessen the stature of the former mode. Hero Mode can still be the hard difficulty. One thing I really liked out of Hero Mode, in reference to Wind Waker HD, was the absence of hearts for the player to collect. This inconvenience forced me to rely on potions much more than I normally would. If we wanted to create a difficulty transcending Hero Mode, I think that a Master Quest mode, if Nintendo wanted to invest time into it, would be a welcome addition to the ebb and flow of the games. Ultimately, if difficulty levels were implemented in the mainstream sense, I think that G-King's idea below serves as a good core for difficulty.

[...]enemies are more intelligent[....]

If anything, I think that the Halo franchise has a good grasp on the implementation of difficulty levels. If Zelda followed this example, I can imagine a successful system being put in place.

 

[DarkestLink]

Giving enemies more damage doesn't do anything. We need smarter AI or more difficult enemy teams like the DarkNut combos in TP.

 

[AncientPoe]

Right. I would really like to see more things like rooms of intelligent enemies that attack in concert. I had a lot of fun dueling against the double Lizalfos in Skyward Sword. They required a keen eye for their body language to attack or defend against correctly. And I mean if Ganondorf is assailing the land, shouldn't it be absolutely flooded with his strongest minions? Why is it the most wandering monsters are animals, or puny chumps like Bokoblins? This may sound odd but I miss the fact that some of the games had enemies that could just totally rock you if you were unprepared. And I say this even though they aren't my "nostalgia" games. I didn't grow up on NES Zelda, Ocarina of Time was my first title. Loved it. Eventually, once I had become a completely and hopelessly enamored Zelda fan, I downloaded and played the older titles. I loved the original's difficulty. It made me rely on my own wits to survive, my ability to assess a situation and either stick it out or retreat for health/to come back later when I was stronger. And those rare times where I was hopelessly outmatched but pressed on anyway… and won? Oohh, those were some sweet moments indeed. I remember my first fight with a Manhandla, i was on half a heart for the second half of the battle but somehow I pressed on and didn't take another hit.

However, I know my results vary from others. For many people, each new Zelda is their first Zelda. Some elements of these games are easier for veterans just because we've played through the same bosses or puzzles. Are there three blocks in the way in a 2D zelda? Then you know instantly that the answer is push the left and right ones forward and then the middle one to the side. You don't even have to think it, you just do it. Gohma? Shoot the eye, of course. So of course, I wouldn't expect those new players to be operating on the same amount of forward-compatible experience. That's why I suggested it be a separate mode.

 

[JuicieJ]

I think Hero Mode should just be changed to where enemies not only do double damage, but also take half and become more aggressive. You know, like in every other game ever?

 

[AncientPoe]

I think Hero Mode should just be changed to where enemies not only do double damage, but also take half and become more aggressive. You know, like in every other game ever?

That's not the point. All that does is create a difference in scale. And Hero Mode is not usually available from the outset. The only Zelda game i've seen with an increased difficulty mode available from the start was Wind Waker HD, and that doesn't count because it's still a remake and many people still went into it knowing or at least somewhat remembering the puzzles. (also not counting the ZELDA second quest from the original because you could only access it if you knew how to do it.)

Also, why would you want a Zelda to do something done in "every other game ever?"

 

[Octorokstar]

What i hate Hero Mode is that Nintendo believes they have to make the game even easier in order for there to be a harder "Hero Mode". Older games may not have been difficult but you could feel that a challenge was intended and that was because it was designed to have a single mode.

We need that old mode to come back as the standard. and a veteran mode would help making it even more difficult monster and puzzle wise.

 

[JuicieJ]

What i hate Hero Mode is that Nintendo believes they have to make the game even easier in order for there to be a harder "Hero Mode".

?

No... no, that's not the case. The last few games have had a very respectable challenge level for a series that aims itself at all audiences that really aren't that much easier than the older games (aside from Zelda II) -- if at all.

 

[AncientPoe]

?

No... no, that's not the case. The last few games have had a very respectable challenge level for a series that aims itself at all audiences that really aren't that much easier than the older games (aside from Zelda II) -- if at all.

I can't really agree with you on that one. Twilight Princess had decent dungeons but on the whole (in terms of combat and survival) was extraordinarily easy, with visually impressive but practically tame bosses. A particularly noteworthy example would be Fyrus, a boss who looked great but spent most of the bout facing the wrong direction. Skyward Sword had some very pleasing dungeons and very fun bosses, but many of them had only the illusion of danger. Take for instance Scaldera. A tense fight, an interesting attack pattern, but the arena you fought him in was literally lined with hearts. You could likely go through your entire store of health (except of course the last bit so you don't die) and replenish it completely three times over before you were in any kind of danger. For a miniboss that might be one thing, but for a climactic clash with the dungeon big-bad, that's inexcusable. (and i'm not even going to mention dowsing…)

But really, you've hit on the point. "aims itself at all audiences." Veteran Mode would basically be a way of saying "i'm already fluent in the controls of a 3D Zelda game, I want a thoroughly dangerous challenge without having to have beaten the game first. i want the combat and puzzles to be equally strenuous to me, I don't want you to pull your punches. And I certainly don't want any monster to do 1/4 hearts of damage."

 

[Octorokstar]

?

No... no, that's not the case. The last few games have had a very respectable challenge level for a series that aims itself at all audiences that really aren't that much easier than the older games (aside from Zelda II) -- if at all.

Yes thats exactly the case....back in ALttP to TP, you felt at least challenged, whether or not it was easy....since the addition of "hero mode" its a sense of easy, and easy play through.

I admit Skyward sword had some interesting dungeons, but the bosses were a joke to me. And don't even get me started on how ridiculously easy ALBW is. Ever played Link's Awakening, A Link to the Past, Oracle of Ages and Seasons? Those games actually had a sense of difficulty...

Back then, you actually got stuck in certain areas. as time progress you didn't get as stuck as often but that was because you were getting familiar with the puzzles or you just had that eye for what to look for. I often play heavily hard picross, and sudoku games. I play puzzle games constantly. So i'm used to Zelda's difficulty, but i never stopped feeling enthralled by it all up until the most recent ones. I forgave Phantom Hourglass and Spirit Tracks as they look like they intended to be more interactive with the touch control. Skyward Sword not so much, and especially not ALBW.